368 réponses à ce sujet

[whykikyouwhy]

MonkeyKaboom wrote...

Preemptive statement.  In ME2, if you played it right, you could romance every possible LI in a single playthrough.  DA2 seems to be making it even more mindless, making everything a possibility.  It removes the realism.  Its instant gratification almost.  Some people say everyone should be a potential LI to account for all players particular interests.  I say romancing should be hard, it should be an emotional investment.  Otherwise its hollow.  One of the best things about DA:O was that the warden had to die (unless you did the DR).  Why?  Because it evoked an emotional response.  Even if it was sadness.  A denied love is one of the most emotional experiences you can have as a human being.  That's a good thing for a game.  I don't buy this mess that a game has to be happy to be good.  A sad game is every bit as immersing (more so really).  I want a romance to have meaning to it, even if its a few pixels.  Otherwise its just a hollow exercise based on your taste of the day.  Like picking out ice cream at cold stone.  Hey I think today I'll choose chocolate and browny crumbs....

Part of the fun in RL romance is the chase.  That should be in the game, but they are trending to be easy.  Its emotionless and lacks gratification.  And yes, some people should be denied.  Emotions are good things, don't cheapen it.

I think all orientations should have an option or two.  But having everyone swinging both ways, its just hollow.

I see your point. However for me, the entirity of the game had meaning - the choices made and not made (non-romance), the development of the characters (non-LI and LI alike). Yes, I like a good chase, but there is a whole contingent of folks who think that the gift-giving-buying-love strategy in DA:O rang hollow. Just as many think that DA2's rivalry/friendship system is the same. Unfortunately, within the confines of both games, we're not allowed to conduct a romance in a manner that would be a lot like RL. We don't have those episodes, those date nights or terse discussions, etc. DA:O had the camp setting, but that had its pros and cons.

Maybe it's how I play, or how I view the game, but I felt plenty emotional at the end of both DA:O and DA2 (well, at several points within DA2) - and those emotional moments were completely outside of the romance arcs. In DA:O, I teared up a little when all of the companions give their little pre-final battle speech - maybe it was the music, maybe it was the realization that the game was drawing to a close and I would have to, in some ways, say goodbye to the experience. I won't comment on DA2 specifics since this is a non-spoiler forum, but there were parallels - I was probably much more emotional over certain sections of DA2 that had nothing at all to do with whoever my Hawke was involved with.

[jlb524]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

I get the point you're making here, but I don't see much of a difference between it and being dissapointed that "character X isn't a romance option". There's still dissappointment all around at somebody not being a choice. 

No, it's worse when the character is a romance option and the content is there with one gender check being the only thing that's preventing it and you know that others can see it.  Because then it becomes an annoyance.  You can't play a part of the game that is included just b/c of gender.   Imagine not being able to do a side-quest because of gender.

TheBlackBaron wrote...
Actually, it means I'm pushing for "oh, make it fair by adding in 1 gay/1 straight/1 bisexual LI", but it's not a secret that I prefer the DA:O method to the DA2 method. In Leliana and Zevran's case their bisexuality actually a part of their backstory and gets referenced outside of the context of the Warden (Leliana's relationship with Marjorlaine, and Zevran's childhood and general upbringing), so I've got no problems with it there. Anders, on the other hand? Sure, he brings up his relationship with Karl, but he does it exactly once, only does so for male PCs, and is overall inconsequential to his character arc. That's what makes his whole bisexuality feel tacked on and Hawkesexual.

They gay only LI thing isn't happening anytime soon so there's not much of a reason to push it.

I also never felt that Leliana's bisexuality was part of her character.  To be honest, I only play as a female Warden and I never saw her 'male lovin' side.  You can say she had to sleep with men in the past as part of her job but that hardly makes her bisexual or interested in men on an emotional/physical level.  She could find males repulsive but thinks sleeping with them is better than having to kill them.  Also, all bisexuals are different and most don't make a big deal about it nor do they need a special back-story to explain it. It just happens.

What about the heterosexual LI's (Alistair and Morrigan)...is their heterosexuality a part of their 'character' and backstory or is it tacked on as well?

I also find it funny that most who think the bisexual romances are 'tacked on' or feel weak usually don't even play them.  I thought the s/s romances in DA2 were very good.

TheBlackBaron wrote...
Considering how much of the progression and conflict of the romance comes from Morrigan wrestling with her feelings and knowing that in the end she's going to have to ask the PC to impregnate her and then leave forever, I fail to see how there aren't significant parts of that lost when attempting it with a female PC. You're basically left with her friendship path with sex tacked on. 

Well, with a female Warden, she knows she will have to ask Alilstair to impregnate her (effectively cheating on the Warden) and then leave the female Warden forever.  Morrigan knows she's just there for Alistair's sperm and wouldn't want to hurt the female Warden by getting involved with her....not much different.  It's a double-wammy and I think it makes the scene more poignant.  I never felt that it was just 'friendship with sex tacked on'.

TheBlackBaron wrote...
I disliked the whole gift-giving mechanic as well. That's one area where DA2 was an improvement over DA:O. And no, sans that, she won't go for the Paragonish-type person who white knights it up and disparages her world view at every opportunity. There's a difference between that, and "being a nice guy" that also talks to her, respects her, and generally works at getting her to open up (didn't play that either, of course - my HNM was more a Renegonish type so they meshed pretty well). Given how most of her own character progression revolves around her relationship with her mother and how the "real world" contrasts with what she was brought up to believe, I find that entirely consistent. 

When I played the game, I felt that a Warden that did 'good things to help people' and then told Morrigan that power 'was all that mattered' was inconsistent...and that's kind of how you have to play it to get approval with Morrigan in dialog.  Well, beyond the gift thing.  So it's either, inconsistent Warden or Morrigan.

Modifié par jlb524, 16 juillet 2011 - 03:18 .

[MonkeyKaboom]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

MonkeyKaboom wrote...

Preemptive statement.  In ME2, if you played it right, you could romance every possible LI in a single playthrough.  DA2 seems to be making it even more mindless, making everything a possibility.  It removes the realism.  Its instant gratification almost.  Some people say everyone should be a potential LI to account for all players particular interests.  I say romancing should be hard, it should be an emotional investment.  Otherwise its hollow.  One of the best things about DA:O was that the warden had to die (unless you did the DR).  Why?  Because it evoked an emotional response.  Even if it was sadness.  A denied love is one of the most emotional experiences you can have as a human being.  That's a good thing for a game.  I don't buy this mess that a game has to be happy to be good.  A sad game is every bit as immersing (more so really).  I want a romance to have meaning to it, even if its a few pixels.  Otherwise its just a hollow exercise based on your taste of the day.  Like picking out ice cream at cold stone.  Hey I think today I'll choose chocolate and browny crumbs....

Part of the fun in RL romance is the chase.  That should be in the game, but they are trending to be easy.  Its emotionless and lacks gratification.  And yes, some people should be denied.  Emotions are good things, don't cheapen it.

I think all orientations should have an option or two.  But having everyone swinging both ways, its just hollow.

I see your point. However for me, the entirity of the game had meaning - the choices made and not made (non-romance), the development of the characters (non-LI and LI alike). Yes, I like a good chase, but there is a whole contingent of folks who think that the gift-giving-buying-love strategy in DA:O rang hollow. Just as many think that DA2's rivalry/friendship system is the same. Unfortunately, within the confines of both games, we're not allowed to conduct a romance in a manner that would be a lot like RL. We don't have those episodes, those date nights or terse discussions, etc. DA:O had the camp setting, but that had its pros and cons.

Maybe it's how I play, or how I view the game, but I felt plenty emotional at the end of both DA:O and DA2 (well, at several points within DA2) - and those emotional moments were completely outside of the romance arcs. In DA:O, I teared up a little when all of the companions give their little pre-final battle speech - maybe it was the music, maybe it was the realization that the game was drawing to a close and I would have to, in some ways, say goodbye to the experience. I won't comment on DA2 specifics since this is a non-spoiler forum, but there were parallels - I was probably much more emotional over certain sections of DA2 that had nothing at all to do with whoever my Hawke was involved with.

Your point is valid.  These are all just opinions.  But I just think your emotional reactions outside of the LI are just the point.  I mean, those SHOULD be the primary points of climax.  That's what the game is about after all.  But I see no reason why that same emotion can't be brought into the romance as well.  I think DA:O did it pretty good.  Not perfect.  The buy my love, gift routine was sorta lame.  They should have based it off of conversations, party time together, and choices through the game.  But the romance wasn't so cheap.  And at least if you were male warden romancing Lel, it actually became a dialogue point with Morrigan prior to the DR.  Yeah its only 1 line.  But that 1 line is powerful.  It forces you to weigh out your own morality.  Is it proper?  What would Lel think?  Selfish?  Or is not doing it selfish?  It had, even if just in that little moment, an impact on the whole story (life or death of your warden).  

To use another game, and yeah its getting overused here.  But the witcher.  If you chose Triss or Shani, they carries over into TW2.  It wasn't a monumental change in the game one way or another, but at that moment if made you weigh your choices as a player.  Its just a game yeah.  But that game forces you to choose an act that you either can or can't deal with.  Games that bring out the personality of the player are the best of all.  I mean, isn't that the immersion everyone here is asking about?  To feel part of the story?

[whykikyouwhy]

MonkeyKaboom wrote...
*removed some long quotage*

Your point is valid.  These are all just opinions.  But I just think your emotional reactions outside of the LI are just the point.  I mean, those SHOULD be the primary points of climax.  That's what the game is about after all.  But I see no reason why that same emotion can't be brought into the romance as well.  I think DA:O did it pretty good.  Not perfect.  The buy my love, gift routine was sorta lame.  They should have based it off of conversations, party time together, and choices through the game.  But the romance wasn't so cheap.  And at least if you were male warden romancing Lel, it actually became a dialogue point with Morrigan prior to the DR.  Yeah its only 1 line.  But that 1 line is powerful.  It forces you to weigh out your own morality.  Is it proper?  What would Lel think?  Selfish?  Or is not doing it selfish?  It had, even if just in that little moment, an impact on the whole story (life or death of your warden).  

To use another game, and yeah its getting overused here.  But the witcher.  If you chose Triss or Shani, they carries over into TW2.  It wasn't a monumental change in the game one way or another, but at that moment if made you weigh your choices as a player.  Its just a game yeah.  But that game forces you to choose an act that you either can or can't deal with.  Games that bring out the personality of the player are the best of all.  I mean, isn't that the immersion everyone here is asking about?  To feel part of the story?

I didn't mean to be dismissive of the romances and their emotional impact (not sure if it came off that way), rather, I wanted to convey that there was just as much emotion, if not more, in other aspects of the story.

In DA:O, I played a female Warden who romanced Leliana, so I had that one line with Morrigan as well, and it gave me pause. It cut quite deep actually (and hearing it in Claudia Black's voice probably helped). But, and I may not be remembering the game as well as I would like to, I felt like the morale quandaries in relation to romance were few and far between in that game.

In DA2, I felt like I was made to be even more on the precipice of decision. (There are several out there who feel like Hawke was powerless, that his/her "choices" weren't really choices- this isn't meant to dredge up that argument.) I played a female Hawke who romanced Isabela during my first playthrough and I had a lot of gamer guilt at various points in the story because of that. It also seemed that with DA2, the romances allowed you to see more of the character - how they changed and matured - in ways unique to the great banter over the course of the 3 acts. But there was so much more going on than just who I was pursuing that the emotional impact became one large bubble - not anything separated by little boxes or categories or defining traits. Just one crazy ride that, by game's end, left me somewhat speechless and in need of a good drink. What I think is a nod to Bioware is that with multiple playthroughs, the emotional impact is there for me. Maybe not as tremendous as that first, fresh look at the story, but I'm still torn. I'm still bothered by some things and thrilled by others.

My main stance on this ("same sex progress") is that I don't think there could be one easy way for Bioware to get it right. And not that "right' cannot be achieved, but "right" is subjective. We all come into this game with our unique hopes and expectations of what we think it should be - adventure, comedy, hack and slash, sweeping epic romance, etc and so forth and every combination therein. We all carry with us our own prejudices, doctrines, backgrounds, etc, and while we may seek to simply role-play, a little bit of ourselves has to come into the picture. We have to relate in some way. I just don't think that a game company being able to account for all of those variables in its audience is an easy feat. Hoorayforicecream put it best a few posts back as she factored in development time and actual project schedule consideration as well.

I grew up with games that almost always had a sole male protagonist who had to rescue the girl. I was raised around games that may have had one female optional character among several male characters. And I honed my gaming chops, such as they are, with games that didn't really address anything other than a heterosexual romance, if romance was to be had. So I can't help but be a bit excited, and maybe protective, of the option to not only play a kick*ss female character, but to be able to pursue a game romance with an equally kick*ss female character, and to selfishly not want that LI to be only available for a male PC.

[TheBlackBaron]

jlb524 wrote...

No, it's worse when the character is a romance option and the content is there with one gender check being the only thing that's preventing it and you know that others can see it.  Because then it becomes an annoyance.  You can't play a part of the game that is included just b/c of gender.   Imagine not being able to do a side-quest because of gender.

I also sometimes can't play a part of a game that is included because of class choices, or orgin/service history/whathaveyou choices, or dialog choices, and so on and so forth. To use Fallout: New Vegas as an example, there's often extra content or paths that can be taken only if you have a specific perk or a specific karma/reputation. Heck, the Lady Killer/Black Widow/Confirmed Bachelor/Chercez Le Femme series all have different effects on different NPCs, and only two of those are open to the PC based on gender. This doesn't detract from the game at all. 

They gay only LI thing isn't happening anytime soon so there's not much of a reason to push it.

I also never felt that Leliana's bisexuality was part of her character.  To be honest, I only play as a female Warden and I never saw her 'male lovin' side.  You can say she had to sleep with men in the past as part of her job but that hardly makes her bisexual or interested in men on an emotional/physical level.  She could find males repulsive but thinks sleeping with them is better than having to kill them.  Also, all bisexuals are different and most don't make a big deal about it nor do they need a special back-story to explain it. It just happens.

And where is it ever hinted in-game that Leliana finds men repulsive or isn't interested in them? Heck, there's several banters where she comments to Alistair and Zevran on their attractiveness or what women like in men. Doesn't mean she's raring to get in their pants, but I assume that for Leliana there's more requirements for that than just "have pulse, am willing". You're grasping at straws. 

And they don't need to have a backstory to explain it. In fact, neither Leliana nor Zevran's does! But at least it's present in a non-in-your-face way (as sexuality generally ought to be handled), which is leagues better than Anders apparantly becoming bisexual for a male character in DA2, but otherwise appearing straight in Awakening and to a female character in DA2. 

What about the heterosexual LI's (Alistair and Morrigan)...is their heterosexuality a part of their 'character' and backstory or is it tacked on as well?

Morrigan's arc culminates in the Dark Ritual, wherin she needs to have sex to get the OGB, and has a general aversion to attention from females (see the dress banter with Leliana). Alistair's arc culminates in becoming king, where he will (attempt to) break up with the PC due to him believing he needs to produce an heir. So yeah, I'd say it is part of their character. 

I also find it funny that most who think the bisexual romances are 'tacked on' or feel weak usually don't even play them.  I thought the s/s romances in DA2 were very good.

Considering my sole complete playthrough of DA2 was FemHawke romancing Merrill, you'll have to play another card from your deck. 

Well, with a female Warden, she knows she will have to ask Alilstair to impregnate her (effectively cheating on the Warden) and then leave the female Warden forever.  Morrigan knows she's just there for Alistair's sperm and wouldn't want to hurt the female Warden by getting involved with her....not much different.  It's a double-wammy and I think it makes the scene more poignant.  I never felt that it was just 'friendship with sex tacked on'.

And what about the whole aspect of the having the PC's child? The whole way she was raised to treat men by Flemeth and how it conflicts with her feelings for the Warden? There are things lost when you attempt to play the romance in a way it was never intended. There's no way getting around that. 

When I played the game, I felt that a Warden that did 'good things to help people' and then told Morrigan that power 'was all that mattered' was inconsistent...and that's kind of how you have to play it to get approval with Morrigan in dialog.  Well, beyond the gift thing.  So it's either, inconsistent Warden or Morrigan.

You are aware that it's possibly to gain her approval in dialog without completely pandering to her world view, yes? Or that there might be motivations for doing good things that are not altruistic? Any percieved inconsistencies in your PC's actions would be your own doing. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 16 juillet 2011 - 04:19 .

[Charons Regale]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

In DA:O, I played a female Warden who romanced Leliana, so I had that one line with Morrigan as well, and it gave me pause. It cut quite deep actually (and hearing it in Claudia Black's voice probably helped). But, and I may not be remembering the game as well as I would like to, I felt like the morale quandaries in relation to romance were few and far between in that game.

I disagree with this somewhat as I felt differently from this^ because of the deeper convo aspects of Origins, I had more of a personal relationship with my LIs. I do, however, think that one line aspect was a bit blunt and could have been expanded upon. In any event, the moral and expository discussion of the LIs are fairly revealing and fits mostly within the traits of the companions, this aspect somewhat lacked in DA2. Morrigan is very practical and somewhat materialistic, whereas Leliana, religious, caring and helpful. Depending on your own personality, the moral choices of who to love come into play from the experience of the gamer. MY issue was a lack of more LI options for my PC as Lele was my only real choice outside of a mod, that makes the other choice come across as awkward.

In DA2, I felt like I was made to be even more on the precipice of decision. (There are several out there who feel like Hawke was powerless, that his/her "choices" weren't really choices- this isn't meant to dredge up that argument.) I played a female Hawke who romanced Isabela during my first playthrough and I had a lot of gamer guilt at various points in the story because of that. It also seemed that with DA2, the romances allowed you to see more of the character - how they changed and matured - in ways unique to the great banter over the course of the 3 acts. But there was so much more going on than just who I was pursuing that the emotional impact became one large bubble - not anything separated by little boxes or categories or defining traits. Just one crazy ride that, by game's end, left me somewhat speechless and in need of a good drink. What I think is a nod to Bioware is that with multiple playthroughs, the emotional impact is there for me. Maybe not as tremendous as that first, fresh look at the story, but I'm still torn. I'm still bothered by some things and thrilled by others.

I reeally agree with this and I essentially felt the same way after numerous runs through the game. My only wish is that I could have had more personal convos with my LIs, but the side banter and the pre-scheduled chats I had were very sweet, I just didn't like that they were scripted. But I do feel they were very well done. While I liked the RPG elements in Origins better, I felt more connection to my companions in DA2. I had a very hard time (for example) turning down Merrill on any of her requests for help, her voice and persona was cause for pain at the very thought.

My main stance on this ("same sex progress") is that I don't think there could be one easy way for Bioware to get it right. And not that "right' cannot be achieved, but "right" is subjective. We all come into this game with our unique hopes and expectations of what we think it should be - adventure, comedy, hack and slash, sweeping epic romance, etc and so forth and every combination therein. We all carry with us our own prejudices, doctrines, backgrounds, etc, and while we may seek to simply role-play, a little bit of ourselves has to come into the picture. We have to relate in some way. I just don't think that a game company being able to account for all of those variables in its audience is an easy feat. Hoorayforicecream put it best a few posts back as she factored in development time and actual project schedule consideration as well.

I honestly don't get this hang-up about the s/s meme, I mean love is love no matter how one looks at it. I don't have hang-ups over opposite sex romances because of who I am. I guess maybe it is because I was raised very openly while having parents that just let me progress to who I am with unfettered love and nuturing to what I am now. Really, if we keep harping on game developers who seemingly have to walk some tight-rope while carrying some burden of worry of backlash from gamers, that just says more about the gamers who have the issues with this. No one has to engage in any of it and the choice in DA2 (for example) seemed to sit really well with me, even when Anders hit on me and I told him "NO!"
 

I grew up with games that almost always had a sole male protagonist who had to rescue the girl. I was raised around games that may have had one female optional character among several male characters. And I honed my gaming chops, such as they are, with games that didn't really address anything other than a heterosexual romance, if romance was to be had. So I can't help but be a bit excited, and maybe protective, of the option to not only play a kick*ss female character, but to be able to pursue a game romance with an equally kick*ss female character, and to selfishly not want that LI to be only available for a male PC.

I am happy to say I really never experienced those games and that we have these options now. I love RPGs, and romance is very essential to me in that genre. My first RPG, though I played it well after its release about 7 years ago, given to me by my brother, was KoTOR. It had a s/s character in it, though it was not that extensive and she was kind-a yukky really, it was nevetheless the game that set me onto RPGs. It is still my favorite one next to DA:O.

Modifié par Charons Regale, 16 juillet 2011 - 04:41 .

[whykikyouwhy]

@Charons Regale - I want to address a couple of points you've made before I drag myself off to bed, but I hesitate to unleash a wall of quoted text (looking back over my posts now, I have concluded that I ramble), so forgive this abbreviated version.

With regard to DA:O and the emotional quandaries - I didn't actively have Leliana in the party all that often during the first half of the game, so I know there was a lot I missed out on. Consequently, I wound up trying to handle a lot of the wooing and personal quests when ramping up toward the final battle. Poor planning on my part perhaps, and this could be partially why I felt as though the emotional-moral quandaries were fewer. But if I may venture to theorize - part of why DA2 may not feel so immersive as far as romances go (not necessarily for you, but maybe for others) was that the scope of the game was smaller. There are fewer gameplay hours, if I'm not mistaken, and because the events/quests/drama is kept insular to Kirkwall, the story has a shorter, abridged feel. Maybe had there been another Act, this might have felt better and allowed for more sidebar and impromptu chats, and would have given some more windows into the deeper portions of the companions' souls.

Yes, love is love. It's beautiful in that regard. But bisexuality, the sexuality of the companions, the sexuality of Hawke - all sticky areas because of the wide range of people gathered here and playing the game from their individual perspectives. What has been (unfortuately) prevalent in threads like this and others on similar topics is a lot of vitriol. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but this is a discussion that leads so quickly to debate and then to argument. People feel passionately on both sides of the spectrum (and all the shades in between). The easiest way to avoid any issues with a s/s romance is to not select the heart - it's so simple. Even playing a gay character, if I wanted to eschew an opposite sex romance, I would just not click the icon, no matter how shiny it is (maybe the shiny-ness is what leads people down a dark path??). I don't quite understand why having a choice but not selecting it is either difficult, or problematic, or harmful in any way. It's there - it's either something you want or something you don't and therefore, you act accordingly. But - some people see that differently than I do and backlash ensues.

With regard to old games - there have been a lot of cliches, which is unfortunate, but I find that more and more now, female protagonists are becoming the norm, or at least are standing on equal footing as their male counterparts. And the writing has collectively improved. Female characters have depth and strength of conviction, or their own torments and dreams. There's such promise in the stories yet to be told.

With that, I'm taking a brief respite from typing out long missives. So to any and all who have posted this evening, there have been some rather insightful and positive discourse here, and I'm glad for it.

[jlb524]

TheBlackBaron wrote...
I also sometimes can't play a part of a game that is included because of class choices, or orgin/service history/whathaveyou choices, or dialog choices, and so on and so forth. To use Fallout: New Vegas as an example, there's often extra content or paths that can be taken only if you have a specific perk or a specific karma/reputation. Heck, the Lady Killer/Black Widow/Confirmed Bachelor/Chercez Le Femme series all have different effects on different NPCs, and only two of those are open to the PC based on gender. This doesn't detract from the game at all.

It does for some people.  Similar to, say, having all bi LIs (and more choice for all) detracts from the game for some, apparently. 

TheBlackBaron wrote...
And where is it ever hinted in-game that Leliana finds men repulsive or isn't interested in them? Heck, there's several banters where she comments to Alistair and Zevran on their attractiveness or what women like in men. Doesn't mean she's raring to get in their pants, but I assume that for Leliana there's more requirements for that than just "have pulse, am willing". You're grasping at straws. 

I never said she finds men repulsive.  I only said there's no indication that she's interested in them romantically or sexualy....I said she 'could' find them repulsive for all I know.

TheBlackBaron wrote...
And they don't need to have a backstory to explain it. In fact, neither Leliana nor Zevran's does! But at least it's present in a non-in-your-face way (as sexuality generally ought to be handled), which is leagues better than Anders apparantly becoming bisexual for a male character in DA2, but otherwise appearing straight in Awakening and to a female character in DA2. 

Appearing straight to you (given what info you had at the time) =/= being straight.    But, before it seemed like you were saying that bisexuality needs to be justified....but now sexuality in general shouldn't be 'in your face'.

TheBlackBaron wrote...
Morrigan's arc culminates in the Dark Ritual, wherin she needs to have sex to get the OGB, and has a general aversion to attention from females (see the dress banter with Leliana). Alistair's arc culminates in becoming king, where he will (attempt to) break up with the PC due to him believing he needs to produce an heir. So yeah, I'd say it is part of their character. 

Women can have sex with men for the purposes of procreation without being attracted to them. Hell, even some lesbians do it when they want to reproduce.  I could say the same of Alistair.

Circumstances dictate that they engage in baby-making intercourse but that doesn't make them necessarily heterosexual. 

TheBlackBaron wrote...
Considering my sole complete playthrough of DA2 was FemHawke romancing Merrill, you'll have to play another card from your deck. 

Oh, I thought you only played MaleHawke...my apologies then.  Still, I've noticed a trend.

TheBlackBaron wrote...
And what about the whole aspect of the having the PC's child? The whole way she was raised to treat men by Flemeth and how it conflicts with her feelings for the Warden? There are things lost when you attempt to play the romance in a way it was never intended. There's no way getting around that.

I'm not saying the dynamic with a female romance would be the exact same as with a male.  Obviously having the PC's child will leave the player with a different feeling than having to convice another person (possibly a good friend of yours) to have sex with your lover.  However, it's still more than just 'friends that have sex'...there was definitely some potential for emotional impact with the FemaleWarden/Morrigan romance and the DR.  There is a loss with the female version, as you said, but I think there's a interesting gain that takes its place.  They are different, but I feel both are equally as poignant.

TheBlackBaron wrote...
You are aware that it's possibly to gain her approval in dialog without completely pandering to her world view, yes? Or that there might be motivations for doing good things that are not altruistic? Any percieved inconsistencies in your PC's actions would be your own doing. 

I know it is possible to make approval gains, but it seemed to me that most of the time you will lose approval by not going along with her world view.  I always had difficulty getting her approval up unless I never took her with me.  If I used her often, it felt like I was constantly losing approval for everything and needed to game the approval by giving her gifts or meta-game dialog to pick the 'right' option that lead to an approval gain. 

If you had motivations for doing 'good' things that weren't altruistic, then I'd want the option to explain that to Morrigan so she can understand better why you help people out so willingly...she may not disapprove in that instance.  Of course, you can't do this.

Modifié par jlb524, 16 juillet 2011 - 06:06 .

[Charons Regale]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@Charons Regale - I want to address a couple of points you've made before I drag myself off to bed, but I hesitate to unleash a wall of quoted text (looking back over my posts now, I have concluded that I ramble), so forgive this abbreviated version.

 
Hope you sleep well and no forgiveness needed !

What has been (unfortuately) prevalent in threads like this and others on similar topics is a lot of vitriol. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but this is a discussion that leads so quickly to debate and then to argument. People feel passionately on both sides of the spectrum (and all the shades in between). The easiest way to avoid any issues with a s/s romance is to not select the heart - it's so simple. Even playing a gay character, if I wanted to eschew an opposite sex romance, I would just not click the icon, no matter how shiny it is (maybe the shiny-ness is what leads people down a dark path??). I don't quite understand why having a choice but not selecting it is either difficult, or problematic, or harmful in any way. It's there - it's either something you want or something you don't and therefore, you act accordingly. But - some people see that differently than I do and backlash ensues.

Exactly, using the heart icon in the way one wants is a very real choice, hence the hub-bub over the ineraction is cause for puzzlement for me, in all honesty. The mere fact that you say there's vitriol, speaks more about those who cannot, or primarily, will not bend from their biases, is the negative tone.

With regard to old games - there have been a lot of cliches, which is unfortunate, but I find that more and more now, female protagonists are becoming the norm, or at least are standing on equal footing as their male counterparts. And the writing has collectively improved. Female characters have depth and strength of conviction, or their own torments and dreams. There's such promise in the stories yet to be told.

Well, social norms (so to speak) change as time progresses, so this is just a consequence of that change considering the improvement in graphical depictions of games over the years, they are more detailed and revealing, from those games that came out 10 years ago. For me, I have no problem with playing a male character if that is all there is, as long as the story is grippping enough (The Witcher ED was pretty good), but that is very rare for me. But how many times I play a game with a male only PC is the telling part. I am a female, so playing a male perspective is a bit difficult since I have female thoughts, not trying to be sexist here, just to clarify.

With that, I'm taking a brief respite from typing out long missives. So to any and all who have posted this evening, there have been some rather insightful and positive discourse here, and I'm glad for it.

ME too, I liked reading your responses, they are well thought out and polite.

[Gotholhorakh]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

It seems most, or at least many, people feel DA2 was a large disappointment (this is not a thread about that). Bearing this in mind, I fear some of the great features that were introduced in DA2 will be looked down on, perhaps not because of much more than a knee-jerk reaction to parachuting templars.

What I'd like to address in this thread is the same-sex romances.

Yes there's been an emotional reaction from a lot of people because of what a disappointment this game has been for them, and perhaps disappointed customers have lumped issues of sexuality in with it all, but I don't think that necessarily means people hate the notion of more choice in sexuality.

Look, we have our moments but I think the part of RPG-playing community that likes games of DA's pedigree is pretty cool about the notion of choice being good - "even if it is choice that I won't use" - because more choice in RPGs is always a good thing, as long as it's implemented well, right?

If anything, paucity of choice and variation in the character set-up, the equipment, the dialogue, the actions of the char, the environments and the overall outcomes has come up more often as a complaint than anything else.

There has been some protest about it being, ahaha, "rammed down people's throats" a bit, and I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I think this is not necessarily an invalid complaint just because of who is saying it.

We are all here discussing a game after all, and the object of the exercise is that we all enjoy ourselves - perhaps there are ways to be more subtle about things so that one can be pro availability of choice, without anyone trying to sex up the core (and potentially quite pure and innocent) epic fantasy story for a player who doesn't want romance confronting them the whole way.

To conclude, I don't think many of us, including those who have been part the "backlash", see the availability of extra choice as a bad thing even if it's not choice that concerns us.

To go even further, I think the people (male and female) who are uncomfortable with overly prominent offering of romance choices (whatever they may be) are not necessarily all anti-choice regarding whatever-sexuality-or-gender-they-don't-like-approaching-them, and will probably often be enthusiastic about other people having those choices available, as long as they can play without them happening if they like.

I also, as it happens don't think very many really stupid horrible people like to play this family of RPGs, although I have no real basis on which to claim that.

I don't think the availability of freedom in who your character loves is ever going to be seriously under threat in this game franchise from either the developers or the (ORIGINS) fanbase.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 17 juillet 2011 - 12:45 .

[FaeQueenCory]

I don't think they'll revert or step backwards... unlike Origins, I don't recall our "friends" at Fox freaking out at DA2's everyone being bi... And seeing as how certain higher-ups have been very vocal against those who've made threads complaining about their insecurities with being around homosexuals...
I feel that the "all LIs are available for everyone" is here to stay.

And come to think of it... Fox freaked out at gay sex with Zevran... and then the sequel had everyone being available for everyone.... So even with the controversy, they stepped forward.

[Kidd]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Morrigan's arc culminates in the Dark Ritual, wherin she needs to have sex to get the OGB, and has a general aversion to attention from females (see the dress banter with Leliana). Alistair's arc culminates in becoming king, where he will (attempt to) break up with the PC due to him believing he needs to produce an heir. So yeah, I'd say it is part of their character.

I'll give you Morrigan, not arguing that one.

But Alistair? "I'm sorry, now that I'm king, I kinda should be with someone who isn't a Grey Warden so I can have kids. We're over, even though I love you" is kinda exactly the same as "I'm sorry, now that I'm king, I kinda should be with someone who isn't a man so I can have kids. We're over, even though I love you".

Not to mention that's just one of several outcomes for the Alistair romance. "My canon Alistair" never became king and remained a Grey Warden at his lover's side. That romance line doesn't need a single word changed to make it bi-inclusive, I believe (simple mentions as "my lady" aside).

Gotholhorakh wrote...

I don't think the availability of
freedom in who your character loves is ever going to be seriously under
threat in this game franchise from either the developers or the
(ORIGINS) fanbase.

I hope so =)

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 17 juillet 2011 - 03:49 .

[vania z]

Don't care about gays and gay romances.
I wish to see more complex romances though, probably involving 3 or more persons(i.e. PC romancing two party members, or pc and another guys from the party trying to romance the same girl)

Modifié par vania z, 17 juillet 2011 - 04:41 .

[phoenixds24]

To be honest, I don't think DA2 was a step forward in same sex romance. Instead of actually writing real gay or bisexual characters (Leliana was actually pretty good for this in DAO), they instead took the lazy "everyone is bi" route. What would have been a step forward would have been a flat out gay character, who is always gay no matter what, and a couple bisexual characters (I mean, Isabella is obvious here, right?). Seriously, I think it'd be awesome for a straight character to try and hit on someone who's gay and totally get shut down.

Seriously... What would be good is in-depth and interesting same sex romances, not laziness.

[MonkeyLungs]

phoenixds24 wrote...

Seriously... What would be good is in-depth and interesting same sex romances, not laziness.

I agree.

Also I submit the following observation. Threads about same sex romance are some of the most popular threads on the boards ... maybe Bioware should make a make a full on gay dating sim? They might be the first company outside of Japan with a fanbase to support such a venture.

[Uccio]

By the way, why does the game claim to have "sexual content" in it even I´ve seen more sexual content in a day time soap opera?

[whykikyouwhy]

Ukki wrote...

By the way, why does the game claim to have "sexual content" in it even I´ve seen more sexual content in a day time soap opera?

The ESRB ratings guide defines sexual content as "Non-explicit depictions of sexual behavior, possibly including partial nudity." Video games are handled somewhat differently than daytime TV. So while the sex scenes in DA2 were not explicit, there is a lot implied and some of the banter/dialogue is suggestive.

[Uccio]

so this games rating is 8 - 10 years. Not that I want to see any pRon but it just seems ridiculous. DAO was much better in this regard.

[Kekkis]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Ukki wrote...

By the way, why does the game claim to have "sexual content" in it even I´ve seen more sexual content in a day time soap opera?

The ESRB ratings guide defines sexual content as "Non-explicit depictions of sexual behavior, possibly including partial nudity." Video games are handled somewhat differently than daytime TV. So while the sex scenes in DA2 were not explicit, there is a lot implied and some of the banter/dialogue is suggestive.

European PEGI system don´t even mention that there is sexual content in DA2. Just "extreme violence" makes it 18+ game. And somehow EA valuegames series has ME1 rated as 12+ game: "moderate violence and moderate sex scene". It does not say what system it uses.

[whykikyouwhy]

@Ukki - In the U.S., DA2 is rated M, which puts it in the 17 and older age range.

@Kekkis - I think in the grand scheme of things, there is much more violence in DA2 than sexual content, or at least instances of. Every fight has some gore on the default settings - limbs flying and such - so the violence is witnessed consistently throughout the game.
I'm no expert in the ratings system. I just did a bit of searching, though admittedly, not a whole lot.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 17 juillet 2011 - 08:58 .

[Uccio]

So 12+ and M rating allows bodyparts flying around with blood spilled but somehow a bare brest is a nono? Talk ´bout standards.

Modifié par Ukki, 17 juillet 2011 - 09:14 .

[Kekkis]

Ukki wrote...

So 12+ and M rating allows bodyparts flying around with blood spilled but somehow a bare brest is a nono? Talk ´bout standards.

Yep. Americans are funny creatures <3

[whykikyouwhy]

@Ukki - I can't explain it. Societal norms have changed over the years in some areas but not in others, and I think that influences the structure of the ratings system.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 17 juillet 2011 - 09:23 .

[Uccio]

I wish they would make other options for us Europeans. Like, live in EU? Install this adult version..

[jlb524]

phoenixds24 wrote...

To be honest, I don't think DA2 was a step forward in same sex romance. Instead of actually writing real gay or bisexual characters (Leliana was actually pretty good for this in DAO), they instead took the lazy "everyone is bi" route. What would have been a step forward would have been a flat out gay character, who is always gay no matter what, and a couple bisexual characters (I mean, Isabella is obvious here, right?). Seriously, I think it'd be awesome for a straight character to try and hit on someone who's gay and totally get shut down.

Seriously... What would be good is in-depth and interesting same sex romances, not laziness.

Why is Leliana such a 'perfect bisexual character'?  How do you write 'real' gay or bi characters?  For that matter, how do you write 'real' straight ones?

I think it was a big step forward as it gave those who play gay PCs options for the first time.  I found the the s/s romances in DA2 to be on par with others I've played (including Leliana's) and it didn't feel lazy.