368 réponses à ce sujet

[Drasanil]

jlb524 wrote...

phoenixds24 wrote...

To be honest, I don't think DA2 was a step forward in same sex romance. Instead of actually writing real gay or bisexual characters (Leliana was actually pretty good for this in DAO), they instead took the lazy "everyone is bi" route. What would have been a step forward would have been a flat out gay character, who is always gay no matter what, and a couple bisexual characters (I mean, Isabella is obvious here, right?). Seriously, I think it'd be awesome for a straight character to try and hit on someone who's gay and totally get shut down.

Seriously... What would be good is in-depth and interesting same sex romances, not laziness.

Why is Leliana such a 'perfect bisexual character'?  How do you write 'real' gay or bi characters?  For that matter, how do you write 'real' straight ones?

Actually make it look like they're romancing some one of a particular gender. When I S/S romanced Lel, I got the impression she [Leliana] was actually romancing a woman. When I did the S/S Merill romance I got the impression she was romancing a male, in essence they just copypastaed the male Hawke romance. 

Honestly when it comes to romances Merill should have a lot of hang ups, for one her entire culture would already make the idea of romancing a human 'bad'. Despite leaving her clan she still seems to consider herself a dalish yet she doesn't voice any hang ups about it. Secondly her culture and the fact her people are declining with each generation would also apply pressure towards heterosexual pairings, yet she has no hang-ups about romancing an individual of the same sex.

I think it was a big step forward as it gave those who play gay PCs options for the first time.  I found the the s/s romances in DA2 to be on par with others I've played (including Leliana's) and it didn't feel lazy.

I think you have an agenda and see what you want to see, given the aggressive manner in which you reply and hyperbolic manner in which you interpret others' statements. Like in the above post where the user says the Lel romance was 'good' and you infer that it was somehow 'the perfect bi-sexual romance' then go on to aggressively press for what is a 'real' hetero/bi/lez/gay romance demonstrates this rather aptly. The same manner in which you don't seem to understand why some people might think every possible romance option being bi-sexual is unrealistic, breaks immersion and smacks of pandering.

[whykikyouwhy]

@Drasanil - I think Merrill is probably not going to have the same hang-ups or misgivings as other Dalish elves with regard to a relationship with a human because she is such a pariah to her clan. As the Keeper's First, she is already somewhat ostracized. I think she even mentions to Hawke that she didn't have a lot of friends growing up since she had to be dedicated to study (paraphrasing there). Once she has turned to blood magic and seeks to restore the Eluvian, she is even more on the fringe but she embraces her path. Her goal is to restore the legacy of her people and at that point, as much as her actions are for and about her people, she probably no longer feels a part of them, at least not to the extent of adhering to all of their social norms.

So too, Hawke is a person she has come to respect, admire and love. And Hawke may be the first person in a long time to show the same back to her. In that light, the prejudices of the clan may slip away. A very Romeo and Juliet scenarion, for lack of a better and ready example - two people from opposite cultures and groups and such.

I won't speak for jlb524, but I read her post not as aggressive, but as a legitimate statement and question. It's a valid point, I think - what *does* constitute a perfect, or even a good, romance? Where are the defining lines, the areas of comparison, the rating scale? Determining how people see what makes something good or bad may put us all in a better position to have healthy discourse.

[phoenixds24]

So... one person is putting words in my mouth, and another wants an outline of a specific rating scale... wow, I totally should have stayed in bed this morning.

Actually, Drasanil explained my point about how I would. With Leliana, there are actual subtle differences in how the romance ends up being discussed between your Warden and her. When playing as either a woman or man, and going through the romance, you really feel like she's the same person she's always been--you're the only thing that's different.

In DA2, this doesn't play out the same way. It's like they're actually Hawke-sexual, and they're just puppets dancing for your enjoyment. That's not how characters should behave. Now, I'm sorry if people feel that cuts down their options, really, what are the chances that of the 7 people Hawke pals about with, not including their sibling, 4 of them are 100%, no qualms at all about it, bisexual. That's unrealistic, and it really just feels like pandering. Not everyone should be romanceable, and those that are, some should be straight, some should be gay, and some should be bi. Having everyone available be bisexual, and having no differences between their male and female romances (unless it makes sense for that character) is just lazy.

With romances, it all has to come down to character interaction. If a character isn't behaving in a manner consistent with their personality and development, you just sit back and say, 'well, I don't know when so and so got replaced by their twin, but here we are.' Leliana acted internally consistent throughout. Some (not all) of the companions in DA2 did not. Was Leliana perfect in this regard? I wouldn't say so, and she has the continuing video game romance problem of being far too easy to pursue... but in all honesty, I personally can't say what would make a perfect gay or bisexual, not being gay or bisexual myself. All I can say is that her character felt consistent for either gender of Warden, and that is what makes it good from a pure storyline standpoint in my opinion.

[whykikyouwhy]

Perhaps "rating scale" was not my best choice of words. What I was trying to point out is that everyone here, everyone who has played the game and has taken time to post on this topic, has a concept of what makes a good romance and what makes a good character and how they feel they should be written. So jlb524's question "How do you write 'real' gay or bi characters? For that matter, how do you write 'real' straight ones?" is a valid question.

We want the characters to be realistic to some degree, we want them to be relatable, and we want them to be consistent. Points I think a lot of folks can agree upon. If I play Hawke with an aggressive personality, how is it that Merrill stays with me and with the companions? She would (if I got this right) be maxed out on rivalry points, but she would still be a friend/companion and possibly lover. Does that make her any less consistent of a character? Perhaps to some, but you could argue that Hawke possesses the cult of personality. People flock to him/her, and stay with him/her, for a variety of reasons. To me, that's not immersion-breaking. Merrill has reasons to stick around, she has her reasons to care for and adore Hawke, and she is who she is despite Hawke's personality or whether or not Hawke is her lover.

I don't find it unusual for a single person to hang around with a group that has a majority of bisexual individuals. It really isn't that far-fetched, so for me, it doesn't come off as pandering. And not everyone is romanceable in that group - Aveline and Varric are off-limits, no matter how many coy statements Hawke makes to them.

I saw the characters as much more than their individual and Hawke-centric love lives, and so I didn't see or feel any break in the immersion. I didn't see any switch-a-roo with a twin. I didn't feel like they were puppets in any way - they stayed true to who they were, to the qualities, beliefs and dreams that were so lovingly written for them. But, that's just how I played the game and how I look at it.

[jlb524]

I felt that Merrill was just as believable as an s/s romance as Leliana. I definitely never got the impression that Merrill was romancing a guy. I don't think she needs to come out and mention, 'oh wow! We're both girls! How weird!!' She doesn't have to mention it at all. I think that's a good thing, as it treats these romances as something 'normal' and an issue isn't made out of it. Also, she's known Hawke for three years and any hangups about the human thing are probably minor by then and seem to be nil. Male Hawke should have similar issues too, so them glancing over the human/elf thing is possibly a problem with both romances. Male Hawke is probably worse considering the possibility of producing an human-blooded child.

To be honest, the Leliana romance was also 'cut and paste' from the male version, having mainly the same dialog and development path.   Or was it because Leliana was the ony bisexual female that she seemed more realistic?

And I'm still curious as to how 'real' bisexual, gay, or straight characters are written...what's the magic ingredient/ingredients needed in every bisexual romance? Every gay one? Every straight one?

How exactly did Merrill's fail at that when compared to Leliana's? I don't think, 'It didn't feel right to me' constitutes a good answer.

Modifié par jlb524, 18 juillet 2011 - 02:06 .

[Special_Agent_Goodwrench]

Eh, I'm kinda late to the party (damned distractions), but whateves.

Personally, I don't see the "laziness" in DA2 romances. Sure, there were very few differences in the straight and same sex romances, but I found the writing to be good, and never felt like a specific romace (such as Merrill's in this case) was male-centered or otherwise. Don't know where you get your inconsistency either. In the game I played, the characters stayed true to themselves troughout the entire time.

It's also funny you mention Leliana, because when it comes to s/s romance, hers got shafted in terms of content. The few gender-specific conversations notwithstanding, it had LESS content overall than her straight romance. She had zero banter relating to her relationship with a female Warden, unlike the male version. Hell, Zevran had more mention of M!Warden in his banter. Not a happy camper I was.

So yeah. DA2 romances were just as indepth and interesting as the ones from DA:O, and dare I say, better in some ways. Both sexes got treated with equal content, which is a big plus in my book. You know, I wouldn't mind Bioware adding a few gender-specific dialogues for the future romances as long as they keep it fair to both sides, but I am in no way complaining about how it was done in DA2.

[jlb524]

Yeah, I was a bit miffed about all the cut FemWarden/Leliana stuff as well. So it wasn't just a copy/paste job from the male romance...it was a half-assed copy/paste job from the male romance XD

To be honest, there are legitimate and constructive criticisms one can raise against the DA2 romances (when comparing to the DA:O ones) that have nothing to do with sexuality. For instance, the DA:O romances just had more dialog...not surprising given DA2's much shorter dev time. If they had a bit more time to work on it, perhaps they could have added in a bit more gendered dialog to DA2. There still definitely was some for each romance, though (Isabela won't proposition MaleHawke for 'girly-fun').

Also, you can say that the framed narrative and time skips made the relationship progression a bit awkward. I think this worked for Merrill's romance (as you get together and live happily ever after in your mansion during the three year time skip...you don't really need to show this) but it could be more of an issue with Isabela's or Fenris'....but that's also subjective.

I personally still think the DA2 romances were on par with the DA:O ones even with less dialog. I tend to fill in details using my imagination anyway, so it's no big deal. The DA2 characters were just as interesting to me and I connected emotionally with the romances.

Anyway, my point is that there are legit concerns about the DA2 romances that seem to go ignored in favor of constantly complaining about the all Bi thing. I just don't get people's priorities sometimes. It's as if the DA2 romances would have been on par with the DA:O ones simply by limiting the bisexual options to one for each gender.

Modifié par jlb524, 18 juillet 2011 - 03:35 .

[draken-heart]

 okay, first off I would like to point put that there is not enough information on the characters in the romantic sense to make any inferences.

• Merrill: we have no clue as to her sexual past so for all we know she may have had a romantic encouter with another female clan member. Merrill being bisexual makes sense looking at her history.
• Fenris: no memory at all, so its not like he remembers if he is gay or not.
• Anders: too much of a strech to talk about him
• Isabela: canon bisexual so....

But back on topic, i do not care about the backlash from DA2 about all LIs being bisexual, the whole all LI you can actually sleep with being bi, its just a  cheap way of saying " their homosexual if you romance them that way, heterosexual if you do not". if you do not like s/s romace do not flirt with characters of the same gender as your character.

Modifié par draken-heart, 18 juillet 2011 - 04:36 .

[phoenixds24]

I wasn't aware there was a lot of cut content from a Leliana female romance. If true, that's an absolute shame because I think that could have improved it. However, even so, there were some slight variations, even if there should have been more. Now, on the subject of Merrill, I don't buy the idea that because she's already a pariah, she's fine throwing away the pressures of her society--it's the very need to preserve her people that drove her away from them in the first place. Remember, she feels the clan has abandoned her, even if she's doing everything she is for their benefit (not that she doesn't go about it in a horrible way). Now, does that mean she shouldn't go for a female Hawke? No, not necessarily, but I don't think it was presented in a very believable manner.

Now, I'm getting pressed on what my opinion is about what a "real" straight or gay or bi romance would entail. Here's the problem; there isn't any one thing that would be involved in that. It's way too complicated. Like I said before, it's all about the interactions of the characters themselves. What would make sense for one person wouldn't make sense for another. As I said, one of the most important things for a romance is for it to make sense within the context of the character. A very chaste character shouldn't suddenly jump into bed for no reason, nor should someone who's gay show interest in your character simply because you want them to, etc etc. Maybe it's too meta of me, but I just didn't feel that way about the DA2 characters. It's not that I thought they were bad in isolation, but I think they could have been better, and the characters should have been more consistent with themselves.

Moreover, with DA2 taking over as long a period of time as it does, there's way too much left out here. Now, maybe that's a problem with DA2 itself, rather than the actual romances, but that doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist. I never felt like the romances were that in depth in DA2 (they could have been better in DAO as well--but I almost always feel like video game romances seem to move too fast).

I kinda feel like I'm coming across wrong here. I'm not complaining about this just to complain, or because I hate same sex romances. I want the romances, gay, straight, bi or otherwise to be better. It's just my opinion that DA2 was not in fact a step in the right direction, and that Bioware needs to improve.

[MonkeyLungs]

The romances were not in depth at all. Someone moves into your house and just stands in the same spot everytime you go home. Anders lives with you but has to talk to you in Darktown instead of the privacy of your mansion because he like, wants privacy.

When something is that half done it needs to be cut from the game or given enough time to fully flesh it out.

[Blessed Silence]

Aaleel wrote...

I don't care one way or the other but...

I think your companions should be a mixture. All bi-sexual just makes all the romances generic to me. Maybe just have a completely homosexual party member, heterosexual, and bi-sexual, but don't make them all bi-sexual again.

But then you have people complaining "Oh but there's only a bisexual female and not male" blah blah ....

Keep them many.  Keep them varied.  Keep them interesting ... and make Sebastian not chaste dang it.

I mean they ARE optional!  I don't know why people don't understand that (for those that whine about them).

[Icy Magebane]

Personally I think it's silly for everyone to be bi, but I suppose I can understand the players wanting a specific companion as an LI and then being frustrated by their orientation. Not that it matters to me. DA2 proved that it's pretty easy to just ignore everybody and not utilize romances at all. No big loss. I guess it's probably more important that the people who actually care about this sort of thing are satisfied... like I said, my Hawkes mind their own business and don't worry about what the party is up to when they aren't around.

[whykikyouwhy]

phoenixds24 wrote...

I wasn't aware there was a lot of cut content from a Leliana female romance. If true, that's an absolute shame because I think that could have improved it. However, even so, there were some slight variations, even if there should have been more. Now, on the subject of Merrill, I don't buy the idea that because she's already a pariah, she's fine throwing away the pressures of her society--it's the very need to preserve her people that drove her away from them in the first place. Remember, she feels the clan has abandoned her, even if she's doing everything she is for their benefit (not that she doesn't go about it in a horrible way). Now, does that mean she shouldn't go for a female Hawke? No, not necessarily, but I don't think it was presented in a very believable manner.

Now, I'm getting pressed on what my opinion is about what a "real" straight or gay or bi romance would entail. Here's the problem; there isn't any one thing that would be involved in that. It's way too complicated. Like I said before, it's all about the interactions of the characters themselves. What would make sense for one person wouldn't make sense for another. As I said, one of the most important things for a romance is for it to make sense within the context of the character. A very chaste character shouldn't suddenly jump into bed for no reason, nor should someone who's gay show interest in your character simply because you want them to, etc etc. Maybe it's too meta of me, but I just didn't feel that way about the DA2 characters. It's not that I thought they were bad in isolation, but I think they could have been better, and the characters should have been more consistent with themselves.

Moreover, with DA2 taking over as long a period of time as it does, there's way too much left out here. Now, maybe that's a problem with DA2 itself, rather than the actual romances, but that doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist. I never felt like the romances were that in depth in DA2 (they could have been better in DAO as well--but I almost always feel like video game romances seem to move too fast).

I kinda feel like I'm coming across wrong here. I'm not complaining about this just to complain, or because I hate same sex romances. I want the romances, gay, straight, bi or otherwise to be better. It's just my opinion that DA2 was not in fact a step in the right direction, and that Bioware needs to improve.

I don't think I'd be going too far out on a limb here by saying that most of us want the romances to be better. Some people would prefer that the romances be removed altogether. DA2 has its pros and cons - and for some, that shifts strongly in either direction.

I do feel that DA2's structure and actual available hours of gameplay limit the progression of the romances, or rather, limit the scope of them. Only certain things can happen in Act 1, only specific things can happen in Act 2, etc. There are designated scenes that have to happen for the romance to be achieved, in story and as an actual achievement. Consequently, there aren't a lot of fillers. There isn't the ability to have some chats in camp, there aren't random scenes where you could go visit a companion and then have a little talk about their backstory - those conversations are scripted in based on specific events/triggers (gift-giving or quests). So we lose some of the spontaniety or that feel of realism. At least to a certain degree. And because DA2 is smaller in scope, or is more insular in its reflection of the world (as opposed to DA:), the story itself may seem scaled down, and doesn't lend itself to long romps across the map which would afford more time to get to know the companions.

It's on the believability that I think many people will continue to disagree (in an amicable manner, hopefully). As I've said, I didn't feel that the characters were any less compelling or any less consistent for who was romanced and how. If anything, I could see issues with someone like Fenris being paired with a mage Hawke. But then love is a strange thing. But yes, things could be better. There are few games where improvement wouldn't be welcome. I feel though that Bioware has made some steps in the right direction. Maybe it's not perfect, maybe there were some fumbles in the execution, but it's forward progression when you compare it against the typical RPG - there is much more scope in DA:O and DA2 in both story and characters and how well rounded they are. I don't know that BW has done anything wrong or poorly, imo, but they have definitely have room to improve. For me, as long as the steps are forward (and thus far, I feel that they are), that counts for a lot. It's not settling for something less, but rather, trying to keep a positive outlook for the potential to come.

[Kidd]

Drasanil wrote...

Actually make it look like they're romancing some one of a particular gender. When I S/S romanced Lel, I got the impression she [Leliana] was actually romancing a woman. When I did the S/S Merill romance I got the impression she was romancing a male, in essence they just copypastaed the male Hawke romance.

But why is the male Hawke the default one you perceive the same sex one is copied off? If you feel one is a copy of the other, why can't the straight romance be copied off the homosexual one?

Not to mention that Merrill goes out of her way several times to say Hawke is "beautiful" and stuff, doubt she does that if Hawke's male.

Drasanil wrote...

Honestly when it comes to romances Merill should have a lot of hang ups, for one her entire culture would already make the idea of romancing a human 'bad'. Despite leaving her clan she still seems to consider herself a dalish yet she doesn't voice any hang ups about it. Secondly her culture and the fact her people are declining with each generation would also apply pressure towards heterosexual pairings, yet she has no hang-ups about romancing an individual of the same sex.

Question why she's an LI in a game where you can only be a human if you will, but male or female doesn't really matter past that point.

Drasanil wrote...

I think you have an agenda and see what you want to see

That's a pretty rude remark. jlb has an opinion, you have another, both of you argue your points. Your views differ since you have different opinions, and both argue along the lines that seem like what each side would say. It's not weird and it's certainly not wrong in any way.

phoenixds24 wrote...

Actually, Drasanil explained my point about how I would. With Leliana, there are actual subtle differences in how the romance ends up being discussed between your Warden and her. When playing as either a woman or man, and going through the romance, you really feel like she's the same person she's always been--you're the only thing that's different.

I don't think I act very differently, if at all, when I'm dating a man or woman irl. Not everyone does =) Aside from extremely subtle things I guess, which Merrill already does, as I mentioned above.

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I don't find it unusual for a single person to hang around with a group that has a majority of bisexual individuals. It really isn't that far-fetched, so for me, it doesn't come off as pandering.

Indeed. Heck, I'm just about to start up a Baldur's Gate 1 party with two friends at a lan party I'm at over here. We're all bisexuals =) And it's not like I chose my company for their orientations, rather they're just nice people x)

jlb524 wrote...

I don't think she needs to come out and mention, 'oh wow! We're both girls! How weird!!' She doesn't have to mention it at all. I think that's a good thing, as it treats these romances as something 'normal' and an issue isn't made out of it.

Me too =)

[draken-heart]

how would you all feel about four opposite-sex-only romances developed at the same time length as this game was? you'd complain about it too right? i myself thought the romaces were well-done given the timeframe they were forced to develop it in.

Modifié par draken-heart, 18 juillet 2011 - 03:32 .

[telephasic]

You know what would be a great step forward in terms of Bioware's same sex characters? Having an openly gay party member, who under no circumstances would "romance you."

Honestly, the current system is I think quite insulting. Some straight characters are love interests, but others can have independent sex lives which you can play no role in. Look at someone like Oghren, or Aveline - we get to know a fair amount about their romantic history, even help them out a bit as a wingman, but we never can partake ourselves.

In contrast, the bi/gay characters seem to exist in part as vessels waiting to be filled (or, more simply, a ****-toy). They can't have a sexual life independent of the PC. Hell, in the case of the male characters, you could say it reinforces stereotypes about being easy/having low standards.

I can count two further pluses to this. One, while a gay-only romance would probably not be explored by the majority of players, the dialogue for a gay but non-romancable PC would be explored by everyone. Two, it might help some of the homophobic teenage male gamers out there be a bit more tolerant - if they had a badass gay party member who wasn't assured of making an awkward pass at them at some point during the game, maybe they could become a bit more comfortable with alternate sexualities.  

Modifié par telephasic, 18 juillet 2011 - 03:56 .

[whykikyouwhy]

@telephasic - I personally don't find the current system to be "insulting." Gay or straight, you could argue that any LI is a vessel, is waiting for that particular functionality in the game to be triggered. However, romance is just one aspect of a companion character - it never has to be pursued at all.

That said, I do think a bad*ss gay nonromancable companion would be great to see and explore for the reasons you stated above. I think Bioware has done a fair job in having gay NPCs in their games (Wade & Herrin come to mind) who are well received and well loved. I see this as a step, albeit small, but still a step.

Of course now I am imagining Wade as a companion, as I find him pretty d*mn cool. And he would, of course, be wearing the best armor.

[MonkeyLungs]

telephasic's idea is a good one.

[mya11]

I hope for Dragon age 3, for romance they are not bi please, but I will want hetero bi or gay for more realistic.

I don't want for maybe as Morrigan or Alistair became are bi for the fan base, Leliana and Zevran gay ok mais not all bi. After it's just my opinion.

[Kidd]

[quote]telephasic wrote...

You know what would be a great step forward in terms of Bioware's same sex characters? Having an openly gay party member, who under no circumstances would "romance you."[/quote]
Sounds pretty cool tbqh =D


Honestly, the current system is I think quite insulting. Some straight characters are love interests, but others can have independent sex lives which you can play no role in. Look at someone like Oghren, or Aveline - we get to know a fair amount about their romantic history, even help them out a bit as a wingman, but we never can partake ourselves. [/quote]

[quote]telephasic wrote...

In contrast, the bi/gay characters seem to exist in part as vessels waiting to be filled (or, more simply, a ****-toy). They can't have a sexual life independent of the PC.[/quote]

Actually, in DA2, there is romance within the party if you do not pursue one of the two parties. That's one of my favourite details about DA2 right there, and a lot of steps in the right direction =) I've always wanted to see my companions interact more, and seeing them partake in romance just like our main characters do is amazing.

[telephasic]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
I personally don't find the current system to be "insulting." Gay or straight, you could argue that any LI is a vessel, is waiting for that particular functionality in the game to be triggered. However, romance is just one aspect of a companion character - it never has to be pursued at all.

Yes, but there are straight non-LI.  There are no gay non-LI.  It implies the only place for gay content in the game is the romances, not in the main quests or the lore of the game. 

KiddDaBeauty wrote...
Actually, in DA2, there is romance
within the party if you do not pursue one of the two parties. That's one
of my favourite details about DA2 right there, and a lot of steps in
the right direction =) I've always wanted to see my companions interact
more, and seeing them partake in romance just like our main characters
do is amazing.

I know what you're referencing.  Bioware actually did this way back in BG2 with Aerie and Haer'Dalis. 

While this is better than nothing, it doesn't address by concern, as the two LI only hook up if you don't romance either one of them.  So it's still just based upon the player's choice.  They could have made the game much better if the LI would dump you for the other LI invariably. 

Which comes down to my broader concern with romances in Bioware games.  Although the variety, and perhaps some of the characterization, has been getting better, the romances themselves have been getting dumber and dumber.  In some ways, I think I still find Jaheira's from BG2 the most rewarding, as you actually had to work for it.   You had to go through a lot of conversations and uncertainty, and if you slept with her too soon, she broke it off.  It made it far more rewarding once you got it right, and far more similar to, you know, an actual courtship. 

But things have only gone downhill, in that respect.  KOTOR was straightforward, except for Julhani.  Jade Empire a step back in the right direction, as many of the romantic options were quite hard.  But starting in Mass Effect, and continuing in DA:O, the romances seemed to start way too easy, and of course by DA2 you don't even have to read to be able to successfully complete a romance.

Because in real life, most people don't have 3-4 romantic options all but throwing themselves at them simultaniously.  Yes, the setting isn't realistic in general.  But just like combat isn't very satisfying if you realize you can just beat away without tactics in 90% of fights and do fine, romances aren't satisfying if you realize a companion will literally go for any protagonist which comes their way.  I'd like my LI to have some standards, even if they don't include me. 

[draken-heart]

 in BG2 with Jaheira, she lost her husband and when she is mourning him, you have to be sympathetic to her and yet tell her there are otherthings to live for, if you do not, nothing happens. i do not find it hard to just say something sympathetic, unless you are roleplaying a cruel unloving jerk from the beginning. plus wasn't BG2 developed by a different company that has no bearing on Bioware games.

but still i feel BG2 has no real influence on the influence the Backlash from DA2 will have on DA3, which is what this thread is about.

Modifié par draken-heart, 18 juillet 2011 - 07:56 .

[Haexpane]

There is ZERO sex in DA2. Nothing but G rated innuendo, and moaning.

Archie Bunker had more on screen sex.

[Haexpane]

mya11 wrote...

I hope for Dragon age 3, for romance they are not bi please, but I will want hetero bi or gay for more realistic.

I don't want for maybe as Morrigan or Alistair became are bi for the fan base, Leliana and Zevran gay ok mais not all bi. After it's just my opinion.

There is no gay, if it's pretty $(&# it.  That's what they say on the internet anyway...

[whykikyouwhy]

telephasic wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...
I personally don't find the current system to be "insulting." Gay or straight, you could argue that any LI is a vessel, is waiting for that particular functionality in the game to be triggered. However, romance is just one aspect of a companion character - it never has to be pursued at all.

Yes, but there are straight non-LI.  There are no gay non-LI.  It implies the only place for gay content in the game is the romances, not in the main quests or the lore of the game. 

Actually, I had agreed with you on the point of adding such a character ("That said, I do think a bad*ss gay nonromancable companion would be great to see and explore for the reasons you stated above." - **italics are my own) I see where people may see/derive that implication, but I am trying to have a bit of faith that things will change, things will improve, and that maybe we'll see a more diverse presence in the DA games to come. I could easily fault the game for not being good enough or progressive enough, but one thing I have learned is that change is slow, especially when it comes to areas that are so divisive. So, I'm content to have what I have right now with these games, and I wait for something better.

KiddDaBeauty wrote...
Actually, in DA2, there is romance
within the party if you do not pursue one of the two parties. That's one
of my favourite details about DA2 right there, and a lot of steps in
the right direction =) I've always wanted to see my companions interact
more, and seeing them partake in romance just like our main characters
do is amazing.

I know what you're referencing.  Bioware actually did this way back in BG2 with Aerie and Haer'Dalis. 

While this is better than nothing, it doesn't address by concern, as the two LI only hook up if you don't romance either one of them.  So it's still just based upon the player's choice.  They could have made the game much better if the LI would dump you for the other LI invariably. 

Which comes down to my broader concern with romances in Bioware games.  Although the variety, and perhaps some of the characterization, has been getting better, the romances themselves have been getting dumber and dumber.  In some ways, I think I still find Jaheira's from BG2 the most rewarding, as you actually had to work for it.   You had to go through a lot of conversations and uncertainty, and if you slept with her too soon, she broke it off.  It made it far more rewarding once you got it right, and far more similar to, you know, an actual courtship. 

But things have only gone downhill, in that respect.  KOTOR was straightforward, except for Julhani.  Jade Empire a step back in the right direction, as many of the romantic options were quite hard.  But starting in Mass Effect, and continuing in DA:O, the romances seemed to start way too easy, and of course by DA2 you don't even have to read to be able to successfully complete a romance.

Because in real life, most people don't have 3-4 romantic options all but throwing themselves at them simultaniously.  Yes, the setting isn't realistic in general.  But just like combat isn't very satisfying if you realize you can just beat away without tactics in 90% of fights and do fine, romances aren't satisfying if you realize a companion will literally go for any protagonist which comes their way.  I'd like my LI to have some standards, even if they don't include me. 

I didn't play BG or BG2, so as far as Bioware romances go, DA:O and DA2 are my only points of reference (unless I skimmed over something in NVN). Therefore, I can't comment on whether or not the storytelling with regard to romance content is going downhill or not. But yes, real life seldom, if ever, affords us 3-4 people saying that they are available and willing to offer you body and soul. But that may be a direct results of complaints or test audiences requesting more romance options (regardless of orientation).

And I agree that a little more in DA2 (a little extra work, running around, more conversations extra) would have enhanced the romances considerably. But I attribute some of the issue to be the timeline of the plot and the amount of gameplay hours available. With something a bit more expansive, like in DA:O, the romances in DA2 may have been a little easier to swallow, so to speak, or may not have stood out as "flawed" for so many people. I also agree that some 'reject' options from the potential LIs would be nice, though I'm not sure that has anything to do with standards. Maybe if your PC is an absolute jerk, it would be cool to have a potential LI call that out, but I think just having a LI say "you're great, but not my type" or "I'm not looking for anything right now" would be satisfactory (because let's face it, in RL, by making a pass or proposition, a rejection may simply come from you not having the right hair color, or you telling bad jokes).

But with this, so too, I'm personally going to bide my time. Because at the end of the day, I enjoyed DA2, I loved the characters, and I felt immersed. Yeah, I could cheer for something better, but I was pretty darn pleased with what I got.