368 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

telephasic wrote...

Which comes down to my broader concern with romances in Bioware games.  Although the variety, and perhaps some of the characterization, has been getting better, the romances themselves have been getting dumber and dumber.  In some ways, I think I still find Jaheira's from BG2 the most rewarding, as you actually had to work for it.   You had to go through a lot of conversations and uncertainty, and if you slept with her too soon, she broke it off.  It made it far more rewarding once you got it right, and far more similar to, you know, an actual courtship. 

It wasn't possible to sleep with Jaheira too soon and ruin the romance.  She offers once near the end and accepting the offer continues the romance.

The romance was pretty straight forward and the 'right' dialog options to continue the romance were pretty obvious.  There was just a crap ton of more romance dialog.  I didn't feel that I (as the player) really had to work for it.  Perhaps my Bhallspawn did in-universe, but the same could be said of other romances since then.

phoenixds24 wrote...

I wasn't aware there was a lot of cut content from a Leliana female romance. If true, that's an absolute
shame because I think that could have improved it. However, even so, there were some slight variations, even if there should have been more. Now, on the subject of Merrill, I don't buy the idea that because she's
already a pariah, she's fine throwing away the pressures of her society--it's the very need to preserve her people that drove her away from them in the first place. Remember, she feels the clan has abandoned her, even if she's doing everything she is for their benefit (not that she doesn't go about it in a horrible way). Now, does that
mean she shouldn't go for a female Hawke? No, not necessarily, but I don't think it was presented in a very believable manner.

The same issues you bring up would apply to her male romance as well.  She can make all the babies she wants with Male Hawke but she will still be failing in her 'duty to society' as she's not producing pure blooded elven babies.

The lack of dialog relating to the human/elf issue is independent of sexuality...I would say the blame should be placed on lack of time to write more dialog.

If Merrill likes boobies then Merrill likes boobies.  What her clan thinks or expects won't change that and she'll go for 'teh boobies' if she finds a nice young lass that suits her taste.  Proof of her having this attitude lies with the whole 'willing to leave clan and live alone to follow your heart' thing she did with the mirror.  Plus, Merrill is an intellectual...she'll leave the baby-making form of clan-preservation up to the others. 

RE: the Dalish.  I would imagine that they'd actually be more accepting of homosexual behaviors given that it's a
form of population control...a Dalish tribe has to be careful of their population growing too quickly as they simply won't have the resources to support it.  They are not civilized and do not have the infrastucture to support a large population.  Most people think 'more babies = good' but that's not always practical.  Hell, it's not practical in most parts of our world.

phoenixds24 wrote...
Now, I'm getting pressed on what my opinion is about what a "real" straight or gay or bi romance would
entail. Here's the problem; there isn't any one thing that would be involved in that. It's way too complicated. Like I said before, it's all about the interactions of the characters themselves. What would make sense for one person wouldn't make sense for another. As I said, one of the most important things for a romance is for it to make sense within the context of the character. A very chaste character shouldn't suddenly jump into bed for no reason, nor should someone who's gay show interest in your character simply because you want them to, etc etc. Maybe it's too meta of me, but I just didn't feel that way about the DA2 characters. It's not that I thought they were bad in isolation, but I
think they could have been better, and the characters should have been more consistent with themselves.

Can you give examples on how the characters weren't consistent enough because of this bisexual romance thing?

Also, character's aren't gay/bisexual (or even straight) because the PC shows interest in them...they are gay/bisexual b/c they are gay/bisexual. 

As you are getting at, this is all subjective.  I thought the DA2 s/s romance I did (Merrill's) fit well as a romance between two women.  Nothing about it raised any red-flags for me.  I even thought it felt better than Isabela's f/f romance and that's just my opinion...others will disagree.  This is ultimately why I did love the all Bi LI thing...you can pick and choose the s/s romance you wanted...the one that felt best for you, while you could choose to avoid the one you didn't like.

phoenixds24 wrote...
Moreover, with DA2 taking over as long a period of time as it does, there's way too much left out here. Now, maybe that's a problem with DA2 itself, rather than the actual romances, but that doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist. I never felt like the romances were that in depth in DA2 (they could have been better in DAO as well--but I almost always feel like video game romances seem to move too fast).

That's a problem with the game being shorter and having less dialog than DA:O.  However, compare to the Mass Effect romances and DA2 definitely did better (content wise).  Again, none of this has to do with the companion's sexuality.

phoenixds24 wrote...
I kinda feel like I'm coming across wrong here. I'm not complaining about this just to complain, or because I hate same sex romances. I want the romances, gay, straight, bi or otherwise to be better. It's just my opinion that DA2 was not in fact a step in the right direction, and that Bioware needs to improve.

But is it a problem with the fact that they were all bisexual or was it more of an issue with content and how the romances were structured around the framed narrative?  It's seems you actually have a problem with the latter and not the former.  The two are independent of each other.  The romances could have used more elaboration on potential issues (like the Merrill human/elf thing).  But that has nothing to do with the romance supposedly not fitting as an f/f romance and it's more along the lines of 'the game was rushed out in under two years and the writers had some crazy ass deadlines so they probably didn't get to add in as much as they could of/should of/would of'.  The same can be said of her Male romance but I won't claim that it doesn't make sense as an m/f pairing because of these limitations.

Modifié par jlb524, 18 juillet 2011 - 11:45 .

[Sunnie]

jlb524 wrote...

Most people think 'more babies = good' but that's not always practical.  Hell, it's not practical in most parts of our world.

Indeed. Human reproduction is out of control in impoverished areas all over the world (even in larger urban areas and even rich nations). A mother that can barely feed herself usually has 2-5 children in these areas, continually compounding the issues. If the statistics that state "more than 22,000 children die from poverty related issues every day" are correct, then you understand how exercising population control needs to happen on a very large scale.

The Dalish clans would most likely understand this and practice limits to keep their clan populations at a certain level, especially because they are nomadic.

[hoorayforicecream]

jlb524 wrote...

Can you give examples on how the characters weren't consistent enough because of this bisexual romance thing?

The only thing I can think of would be that they aren't necessarily consistent across different playthroughs (Anders doesn't talk about Karl with Lady Hawke, Isabela has slightly different conversation topics, e.g. "girly fun" vs "a duel"). However, the nature of the characters themselves isn't necessarily consistent either - Rivalry vs Friendship is a pretty big difference between playthroughs. The only major difference I can see is that the rivalry/friendship thing is that it's up to the player how much the character changes based on their relationship, while the sexuality is out of the player's control.

Then again, one could also argue that the little changes aren't sufficient to be sufficient to count as inconsistency, given all the other factors that may affect the playthrough. It will definitely vary per person though; some people have a hard time looking past certain sticking points (act 3, reused maps, wave combat, etc.), and portrayed sexuality is definitely a hot button issue.

[Davillo]

Good I'm not looking forward to seeing many gay characters swarming around Havke like this time around. Worst thing that happened to me in this series is that they took my favorite character from awakening, who at that time seemed pretty straight and cool and turned him in to some emo queer.

[Special_Agent_Goodwrench]

Davillo wrote...

Good I'm not looking forward to seeing many gay characters swarming around Havke like this time around. Worst thing that happened to me in this series is that they took my favorite character from awakening, who at that time seemed pretty straight and cool and turned him in to some emo queer.

Ignoring your poor choice of words, I never considered Anders to be the straightest tool in the shed. He did have some rather suggestive banter with some of the male compnaions in Awakening, so him "becoming" bisexual in DA2 made perfect sense to me. Anders changed, but it had nothing to do with his sexuality.

[Sunnie]

Davillo wrote...

Good I'm not looking forward to seeing many gay characters swarming around Havke like this time around. Worst thing that happened to me in this series is that they took my favorite character from awakening, who at that time seemed pretty straight and cool and turned him in to some emo queer.

Ignoring the trollish tone of this post...
He never exhibited any attraction to either gender Hawke unless you SELECT THE BIG RED HEART RESPONSE. You know, the one that has this <3 in the wheel? Or did you somehow miss that?

[SirGladiator]

I like the Merrill romance, it works really well for Lady Hawke. I don't play as male Hawke so I dont know what if anything the differences are, but its very good either way. If I were going to pick one area of the DA2 romances to criticize, its that Merrill doesn't really hit on Hawke until she shows interest, but the dudes do. I like that Isabella does, but the dudes are annoying, if they could in the future make the dudes like Merrill, they don't hit on you unless you express interest first, that'd be great. As for Merrill, aside from the fact that she could be a bit more outgoing with her interest early on, I have nothing but good things to say about her romance. I do agree with the general idea that romances should be a bit more difficult, they've gotten almost absurdly easy over the years, its nice to have a bit of a challenge to the romances. But that aside, two thumbs up for Merrill!

[Drasanil]

jlb524 wrote...
The same issues you bring up would apply to her male romance as well.  She can make all the babies she wants with Male Hawke but she will still be failing in her 'duty to society' as she's not producing pure blooded elven babies.

Personally, I think Merill should have had bigger hang ups over the long term with male hawke and getting preggers. While her old societal pressures would have caused more problems in the short term with femhawke. Until she reconciled that with femhawke she could lurv her girl while getting some on the side in the alienage to keep the bloodline going. 

If Merrill likes boobies then Merrill likes boobies.  What her clan thinks or expects won't change that and she'll go for 'teh boobies' if she finds a nice young lass that suits her taste.  Proof of her having this attitude lies with thewhole 'willing to leave clan and live alone to follow your heart' thing she did with the mirror. 

Not really. Merill wasn't nearly as care free or free spirted as her departure and general innocence made it seem. Just look at the reasons she actually left, she thought restoring the Eluvian was important to the dalish as a whole a chance to restore some of their glory. In essence she valued her duty to the dalish and elves more as whole than she did to her individual clan and was willing to sacrifice her clan ties to see this duty through.  It's a case of conflicting loyalties and duties not "screw you guys I'm not going home"

Plus, Merrill is an intellectual...she'll leave the baby-making form of clan-preservation up to the others.   

"I'm too smart to have babies, I'll let them stupid breeders do it ha!" You know it's attitudes like that that are making stupidity a positive survival trait

RE: the Dalish.  I would imagine that they'd actually be more accepting of homosexual behaviors given that it's a
form of population control...a Dalish tribe has to be careful of their population growing too quickly as they simply won't have the resources to support it.  They are not civilized and do not have the infrastucture to support a large population.  Most people think 'more babies = good' but that's not always practical.  Hell, it's not practical in most parts of our world.

Conveniently ignoring the fact the elves are slowly vanishing or at least being absorbed into the human race through interbreeding, and that they know it. Furthermore given the dalish seem to be able to readily control plants through magic, all it takes is one keeper and a bit of imagination and Malthusian-style problems aren't such a big issue.

The dragonage wiki even makes mention of it in the sexuality marriage and the city elf section, also makes mention that producing human offspring is considered traitorous no reason to believe the dalish aren't even more stringent their views on this, given their entire society is based around the preservation and restoration of the elves and elven culture.

Modifié par Drasanil, 19 juillet 2011 - 04:32 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Drasanil wrote...

Conveniently ignoring the fact the elves are slowly vanishing or at least being absorbed into the human race through interbreeding, and that they know it. Furthermore given the dalish seem to be able to readily control plants through magic, all it takes is one keeper and a bit of imagination and Malthusian-style problems aren't such a big issue.

The dragonage wiki even makes mention of it in the sexuality marriage and the city elf section, also makes mention that producing human offspring is considered traitorous no reason to believe the dalish aren't even more stringent their views on this, given their entire society is based around the preservation and restoration of the elves and elven culture.

I just wanted to pose a few thoughts regarding this last bit.

I always felt that Merrill's focus was on restoring her clan - it was why she sought to repair the Eluvian, it was why she turned to a "spirit" for help, and ultimately, it was why she accepted having to leave the clan. That goal was paramount to her - first and foremost everything that she wanted. As such, that was her selected method for preservation of the Dalish ways - through an artifact, as opposed to reproduction. The Eluvian became her life's work, which left little time for thoughts of settling down and raising a family. And even when she does find love with Hawke, moves in, etc., her main focus is still the Eluvian.

As far as producing offspring being something traitorous, that may be, but we have evidence that the Dalish will embrace their own under the right circumstances. Feynriel seeks refuge with the Dalish and is accepted and even mentored by the Keeper. If he isn't made tranquil after his encounter in the Fade, his mother goes to live with the clan. So first, we have a half elf being welcomed (perhaps only to some degree, but at least by the Keeper) into the clan, and second, we have the woman who ran off to be with a human being welcomed and accepted. This may all have been because magic is valued by the Dalish and thus, Feynriel was seen as a boon, someone that could be of benefit to the clan. But, he was allowed to stay (for a time of his choosing).

So maybe there are constraints within Dalish society, but it seems that they are somewhat fluid, at least in certain situations. Maybe it also depends on who is the Keeper of the clan and at the time. Marethari may have led her people with a gentler touch than most.

Now, as a disclaimer, I'm no expert on Merrill, or the Dalish ways.

[Haexpane]

Davillo wrote...

Good I'm not looking forward to seeing many gay characters swarming around Havke like this time around. Worst thing that happened to me in this series is that they took my favorite character from awakening, who at that time seemed pretty straight and cool and turned him in to some emo queer.

R U SRALSLY that much of a bigot?

[Agamo45]

Personally I hope BW takes the hint and stops the pandering to the radical gays on this forum. Stop the crusade against the straight male.

[Special_Agent_Goodwrench]

There is no crusade. There is no agendal. And if anyone's shouting the loudest to be pandered to, it is the straight male demographic.

Nobody's forcing you to pursue s/s romances, so get over yourselves. Baah, Anders hit on me! So ****ing what? Tell him no and move on. Gay folk constantly deal with the opposite sex characters hitting on them, but you don't see them ****ing about it nearly as much.

Deal with it.

[jlb524]

Drasanil wrote...

Personally, I think Merill should have had bigger hang ups over the long term with male hawke and getting preggers. While her old societal pressures would have caused more problems in the short term with femhawke. Until she reconciled that with femhawke she could lurv her girl while getting some on the side in the alienage to keep the bloodline going. 

You know nothing about how the Dalish view homosexuality.  I know nothing about how they view it...you assume they look down upon it because 'they need to make babies to preserve the clan and whatever'.  All I can tell you is this:

1)  There are other Dalish females that can make babies besides Merrill.  I'm pretty sure she's aware of this.
2)  As I've mentioned before, the Dalish may actually be interested in population control, so homosexuality wouldn't be a big deal.

Drasanil wrote...

Not really. Merill wasn't nearly as care free or free spirted as her departure and general innocence made it seem. Just look at the reasons she actually left, she thought restoring the Eluvian was important to the dalish as a whole a chance to restore some of their glory. In essence she valued her duty to the dalish and elves more as whole than she did to her individual clan and was willing to sacrifice her clan ties to see this duty through.  It's a case of conflicting loyalties and duties not "screw you guys I'm not going home"

I think you're not getting the 'if Merrill likes boobies then she likes boobies' part.  If she's attracted to women, she is attracted to women regardless of who her clan says she should be attracted to.  Merrill isn't completely care free and spirited (I never said that).   She thinks her place in helping out the Dalish is in restoring lost lore and not in pooping out a bunch of babies (if she did think that, she wouldn't have left in the first place).  Again, it's not as if she's the only fertile female in the clan....

However, if her clan expects her to make a baby (that's a big, big 'if' by the way) she would still forgo that in order to work on the mirror, as she feels that this is the most important thing for her to dedicate herself to....because there are other females that can make babies while there's only one mirror and it's a once in a lifetime opportunity for her.

Drasanil wrote...

"I'm too smart to have babies, I'll let them stupid breeders do it ha!" You know it's attitudes like that that are making stupidity a positive survival trait

No, it's just most people who dedicate themselves to causes that suck up their time tend to not have children, or many children.

Drasanil wrote...
Conveniently ignoring the fact the elves are slowly vanishing or at least being absorbed into the human race through interbreeding, and that they know it. Furthermore given the dalish seem to be able to readily control plants through magic, all it takes is one keeper and a bit of imagination and Malthusian-style problems aren't such a big issue.

The dragonage wiki even makes mention of it in the sexuality marriage and the city elf section, also makes mention that producing human offspring is considered traitorous no reason to believe the dalish aren't even more stringent their views on this, given their entire society is based around the preservation and restoration of the elves and elven culture.

It's not all or nothing.  They are making babies...there are plenty of dalish elves that are making babies to keep the population alive.  My point is that it's not going to be a big deal if a handful of elves don't because they are gay or are in homosexual relationships. 

Elves are disappearing but simply making more elves won't help that when the society doesn't exist to support them.  Do you naively think that the elves can retake their glory days by just having a ton of elf babies?  It won't, because all those elves will eventually become a burden on the clan and it will harm them all.

Also, Dalish are different than the City Elves given that they are nomadic and not a part of civilized society (hence, they lack access to its resources)....so overly large clan populations would be a terrible strain on them.

Thinking more babies = good for any society is a very naive view.

[Melca36]

DrunkDeadman wrote...

There is no crusade. There is no agendal. And if anyone's shouting the loudest to be pandered to, it is the straight male demographic.

Nobody's forcing you to pursue s/s romances, so get over yourselves. Baah, Anders hit on me! So ****ing what? Tell him no and move on. Gay folk constantly deal with the opposite sex characters hitting on them, but you don't see them ****ing about it nearly as much.

Deal with it.

The people who whine about it the most are the ones that are the most insecure.

Its very easy to avoid the S/S romances. My husband did. Sure he may have got some rivalry points from Anders but it didn't bother him. Maybe thats because he is secure in his identity.

[Drasanil]

jlb524 wrote...
Also, Dalish are different than the City Elves given that they are nomadic and not a part of civilized society

Yes they are different, they're quite rabidly traditional, more so even than city elves who are only traditional because of almost non-existant memories. Dalish have a clearer idea of their past and an actual desire to preserve and recapture it.
 

(hence, they lack access to its resources)....so overly large clan populations would be a terrible strain on them.

Already addressed the issue, keepers can literally create and control plants...what lack of resources?

Thinking more babies = good for any society is a very naive view.

Thinking tradionalist elves trying to recapture their heritage have conveniently modern understandings, views and values = very naive.You're just saying the dalish are nomads, therefore no babies, while ignoring the actual context and foundations of their society as well as their means and capabilities which serve a lot more to inform us about them than the fact they wander around. 

[John Epler]

I'm going to make this easy. Conflating homosexuality and pedophilia is 100% unacceptable. Do it again at your own peril.

[FieryDove]

/Diplomatic - We can agree to disagree and still be civil to each other, yes?
/Sarcastic - There is so much...love in this thread.
/Aggressive - Ban everyone in this thread. o.o wait...

[macrocarl]

I liked this thread when it was about the Dalish and whether babies are cool to have or not.

[John Epler]

Yeah, calling homosexuals degenerates is not going to win you any points here.

Locking this thread. And a couple of bans handed out for good measure.