368 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
I think you made a very good point here. Isn't that similar to what John Epler said earlier?

In a sense...considering that most media/movies tend to feature a male protagonist that "gets the girl" but it's rare to see it work the other way around.  However, BW now provides female PCs with multiple male options equal to what the male PC gets, even if those romances with male LIs aren't as popular as ones with the female LIs.

[erynnar]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Would I be disappointed? Maybe, but I learned long ago, life is full of disappointment and I don't get everything I want. So I'd either suck it up and slap on a beard or go write/read fanfiction to cater to my "if only they were..."

Well, they've set a precedent for including more s/s options now...and people who really like s/s romances kind of want them to keep it now.  I see no problem with this and I'm in that boat.  It reminds me of old BW games, where there were usually 2-3 female LIs for the male PC and only one male LI for the female PC...of course, people who played female PCs wanted more options...wanted the same amount of LIs that the male PCs got...where they in the wrong for wanting this?  Is it okay to revert back to only one male romance for female characters and add in more females for males?

I think you made a very good point here. Isn't that similar to what John Epler said earlier?

True, I wasn't thinking of it from the hetro female, we do tend to get fewer choices....hmmm. Oh thanks for the food for thought you two! I always like looking at things from a different view.  *ponders*

[Sad Dragon]

jlb524 wrote...

erynnar wrote...
Really, has it gotten to where everyone thinks every whim, should be catered to? I prefer realism and logic within the realms of my fantasy story. It has to make sense even if it's fiction. And they established, some characters are hetro, period. Why not one who is gay, period? I have no problem with that.

I'd say these romances are already quite 'ilogical' and unrealistic for the sake of giving people options (like, no race/class/morality checks for romances).  I'm not sure why most are okay with that, but grip on tight to gender checks for the sake of maintaining 'realism'.

I have to agree with erynnar, hell the "everyone is bi" in DA2 actualy broke my immersion. Now sure there have been problems with how the romances are handled in the past but two wrongs don't make one right.

Throughout all of Biowares games, i might have found 3 romances that made at least some sence -- on one level or another and of those 3 only 2 felt like something I could actually choose in a serious playthrough. Granted I only play straight guys -- or well in terms of my track reckord in Bioware games that should be asexual guys -- but I do make a point of looking up the other romances but I might still miss some subtil stuff as I never play them through myself.

Personally I think that there has always been a few things off with the romance options and I do not think we should add more. We should, however, focus on fixing what we have -- if they are to be in the games at all. same-sex romances are however not one of the things that are off with the romances -- though making everyone bi, in my honest opinion -- is.

Edit: So considering that  as a straight guy, appearantly the most targeted demographic, I have only found 1 game that I liked romances in I think its safe to say; They cant please everyone -- I think we all can live with that.

-TSD

Modifié par Sad Dragon, 15 juin 2011 - 07:18 .

[Sylvianus]

JohnEpler wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

Good God, is this all you people care about? You just have to shove this "same-sex" crap into the mix every chance you get don't you? Are you not going to stop until every single character is bi/gay? This is getting ridiculous.

For many people, this is an incredibly important issue. Greater representation of same-sex romances in media is something they strive towards because, well, they currently don't have this representation. Unlike heterosexual folks, they can't watch a tv show, read a book or play a game and have a greater than 50% chance that they'll see a relationship or character that they can identify with in the same way that the rest of the population can.

So for them, it -is- a major issue, and one that goes beyond the level of 'I want more character customization options' or 'I think that there needs to be more branching in the story'. Those are game-specific considerations, and while they're certainly valid - they don't speak to larger social issues. This is not true of same-sex romance - there's a lot more going on there, and as such, it will remain a fairly significant topic of discussion on these (and other, I imagine) forums.

Which is a fancy way of saying, essentially - no one forced you into this thread. If you have something constructive to say, please do so! However, coming in and saying what amounts to 'another thread about being equally and fairly represented in media? Why do you guys care so much about being able to identify with characters and romances that represent you and your sexual orientation?' It's not a convincing argument, and comes across as rather overly hostile.

The answer is certainly not in the destruction of sexual identities. I don't see the relevance in it, just a desire to not waste money. Want to help gay people to be better represented? Want to make a big step? assume it. (already doing politics in a video game I hate that, There is always a high risk of biased point of view that have nothing to do in creating a video game. ) do it properly, without consequence for consistency, immersion, and story.

  To resolve a problem, doesn't create new ones at any cost. And the price is great, DA2 became somewhere   ridiculous with this 'they are all bi " or this word invented hawksexual.

[Sad Dragon]

Sylvianus wrote...

  To resolve a problem, doesn't create new ones at any cost. And the price is great, DA2 became somewhere   ridiculous with this 'they are all bi " or this word invented hawksexual.

Hawkesexual?! Damn that right there just justified that all romancable NPCs are bi.

-TSD

[schalafi]

I don't get it, what is all the flap about? To me it seems simple. In DA2, if you want to play as a bi/gay character, the opportunity is there, if you want to play strict, that's available too. DA:O and DA2 are the only games I've played that allow that freedom, so what's the problem?

[Elcariel]

lobi wrote...
Snap out of it. There should be a Bi Gay Straight and Transgender NPC love interest in game but not every NPC should be Gay Straight Bi and Transgender all at once. And not all love interests should be part of the combat party. When I play DA2 Isabella is imagined as transgender as is Varrick (no beard). Also take care who you talk to in that tone, ok hon.

Until you said this, I never considered Isabella a realistic character. But now I do.

But seriously, this thread is about backlash to same-sex romances -- can you imagine the backlash to an openly trans character? Or a trans am romance? It would be vicious enough if it only included transfolk's reactions, let alone that of the public at large.

Potentially cool as it might be, I can't see Bioware throwing themselves on that landmine on purpose. I know I sure wouldn't.

[Sad Dragon]

@schalafi

I guess the problem depends on who you are asking, as I am sure there are as many answers to your question as there are people in this thread.

Though just wanted to add that technically you have been able to play any sexual orientation since Jade Empire -- sure the options might have been limited but the options where nonetheless there.

-TSD

Modifié par Sad Dragon, 15 juin 2011 - 09:00 .

[TGiNcRySiS]

I don't understand why all characters couldn't be romanced.  Aveline for instance.  Think they should introduce party member romances as well through stroy choices.

[Sylvianus]

schalafi wrote...

I don't get it, what is all the flap about? To me it seems simple. In DA2, if you want to play as a bi/gay character, the opportunity is there, if you want to play strict, that's available too. DA:O and DA2 are the only games I've played that allow that freedom, so what's the problem?

Not a problem for you, but a big probem for a lot as said the dear John Elper. Many people want realism, many people want to see sexual identities in their game. Gay or hetero, it doesn't matter.

Immersion, personality characters and story are very important for a lot and I do not see how their concerns would be less important than gay people. Unless of course if it comes to politics. And it becomes immediately more troublesome. There is no more to do with the creation of a game.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 15 juin 2011 - 09:01 .

[jlb524]

Sad Dragon wrote...

I have to agree with erynnar, hell the "everyone is bi" in DA2 actualy broke my immersion. Now sure there have been problems with how the romances are handled in the past but two wrongs don't make one right.

So, should they go with their previous methods and add in race/class/morality checks and not always provide equal options for even male/female PCs (b/c that's not always realistic) or continue on with opening the romances to all?

Sad Dragon wrote...
Throughout all of Biowares games, i might have found 3 romances that made at least some sence -- on one level or another and of those 3 only 2 felt like something I could actually choose in a serious playthrough. Granted I only play straight guys -- or well in terms of my track reckord in Bioware games that should be asexual guys -- but I do make a point of looking up the other romances but I might still miss some subtil stuff as I never play them through myself.

Well, if an potential and optional romance doesn't make sense to you then don't pursue it.  Keep in mind that straight male PCs have always had their 'pick of the litter' with romances, so to speak.   I'm glad they have gone in the direction of adding in options for people that don't play as straight males.

Sad Dragon wrote...
Personally I think that there has always been a few things off with the romance options and I do not think we should add more. We should, however, focus on fixing what we have -- if they are to be in the games at all. same-sex romances are however not one of the things that are off with the romances -- though making everyone bi, in my honest opinion -- is.

It's like you are saying, "I kind of think romances suck and usually don't pursue them, but I also want to limit options for those that do like them and want them." 

How do you propose these romances become 'fixed' then?

[jlb524]

Sylvianus wrote...
Not a problem for you, but a big probem for a lot as said the dear John Elper. Many people want realism, many people want to see sexual identities in their game. Gay or hetero, it doesn't matter.

Immersion, personality characters and story are very important for a lot and I do not see how their concerns would be less important than gay people. Unless of course if it comes to politics. And it becomes immediately more troublesome. There is no more to do with the creation of a game.

Then you should be concerned with other aspects of these romances that break world immersion...like Alistair romancing a blood mage in DA:O.

It seems concern for realism goes as far as sexuality and then people stop caring about it.

Modifié par jlb524, 15 juin 2011 - 09:04 .

[Sylvianus]

jlb524 wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
Not a problem for you, but a big probem for a lot as said the dear John Elper. Many people want realism, many people want to see sexual identities in their game. Gay or hetero, it doesn't matter.

Immersion, personality characters and story are very important for a lot and I do not see how their concerns would be less important than gay people. Unless of course if it comes to politics. And it becomes immediately more troublesome. There is no more to do with the creation of a game.

Then you should be concerned with other aspects of these romances that break world immersion...like Alistair romancing a blood mage in DA:O.

It seems concern for realism goes as far as sexuality and then people stop caring about it.

Sexuality is a part of the human being, so that's one thing that especially affects people. That's why these topics about sexuality are the most passionate, the most debated. It affects us personally, things are going well beyond such details.

It's almost impossible to ignore that for many people. It's not really the same thing. :s
The scale is much larger.

[jlb524]

Sylvianus wrote...
Sexuality is a part of the human being, so that's one thing that especially affects people. That's why these topics about sexuality are the most passionate, the most debated. It affects us personally, things are going well beyond such details.

It's almost impossible to ignore that for many people. It's not really the same thing. :s
The scale is much larger.

Okay, but speaking in universe, sexual attraction also includes preferences for elves/dwarves/humans in the DAverse....these are ignored. What is also ignore is morality and LIs will still want to get with you if you do something they don't like (it's especially easy in DA:O with the gift system).  These things are also very important to individuals looking for a mate.

[Rigeth]

Maria Caliban wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Rigeth wrote...

But alas, I do have one thing I am STRONGLY AGAINST! And what might that be? The triple heart Isabelas forced romance. 3 out of 3 options all hearts, what the duck?

Um... where is this scene? I've been over DA2 with a fine-toothed comb for FAQ research and I've never seen this.

Might be confusing Isabela for Anders.

My eyes are not that broken, thank you very much.
The setup was.
Top right  Heart
Middle right  Heart
Bottom right Heart
After anyone of them I had heart and break heart to choose from.

[Sad Dragon]

jlb524 wrote...

Sad Dragon wrote...

I have to agree with erynnar, hell the "everyone is bi" in DA2 actualy broke my immersion. Now sure there have been problems with how the romances are handled in the past but two wrongs don't make one right.

So, should they go with their previous methods and add in race/class/morality checks and not always provide equal options for even male/female PCs (b/c that's not always realistic) or continue on with opening the romances to all?

Personally I think they should craft NPCs with a set sexuality. They can still make it so that they is equal options for everyone but it wont break the immersion of the world that everyone and their dog wants to jump into bed with the main protagonist. When romances start to affect immersion I think its time to take a step back and look to see if there is a better way of doing it.

jlb524 wrote...

Sad Dragon wrote...
Throughout all of Biowares games, i might have found 3 romances that made at least some sence -- on one level or another and of those 3 only 2 felt like something I could actually choose in a serious playthrough. Granted I only play straight guys -- or well in terms of my track reckord in Bioware games that should be asexual guys -- but I do make a point of looking up the other romances but I might still miss some subtil stuff as I never play them through myself.

Well, if an potential and optional romance doesn't make sense to you then don't pursue it.  Keep in mind that straight male PCs have always had their 'pick of the litter' with romances, so to speak.   I'm glad they have gone in the direction of adding in options for people that don't play as straight males.

That was my point. Even playing as a straight male I have not found any options for me. I am however content with that possision and understand that we cant always get what we want -- I think its time we all realised this, most on here I believe already do, but there are still ppl out there that want the devs to cater to just them.

jlb524 wrote...

Sad Dragon wrote...
Personally I think that there has always been a few things off with the romance options and I do not think we should add more. We should, however, focus on fixing what we have -- if they are to be in the games at all. same-sex romances are however not one of the things that are off with the romances -- though making everyone bi, in my honest opinion -- is.

It's like you are saying, "I kind of think romances suck and usually don't pursue them, but I also want to limit options for those that do like them and want them." 

I'm sorry if i was unclear, cause that is not what I meant. What I meant was that there is an execution problem here. To use a drastic methaphore: If I am freezing putting, myself on fire is going to work against me freezing, but its not a good solution.

jlb524 wrote...
How do you propose these romances become 'fixed' then?

Tell you what, I can give this a go and try and have a deeper look into romances and how they could be improved and the problem with trying to improve them and all that surrounds it. Problem is that will most likely end up being a long post to type out and I really need to go to bed as I need to catch an early train for a buisness meeting tomorrow. But if you want I can have a look at it when I come home -- does that sound like a plan?


-hopes he didnt mess up the quoting-

-TSD

[erynnar]

And just because I forgot to say, yes, I find everyone being bi silly, but it isn't a big deal or game breaker for me. It's just on the ridiculous side to me, not what I am really worried about for DA3. Well, except I think the gay/lesbian/bi community should be represented.

[Sylvianus]

jlb524 wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
Sexuality is a part of the human being, so that's one thing that especially affects people. That's why these topics about sexuality are the most passionate, the most debated. It affects us personally, things are going well beyond such details.

It's almost impossible to ignore that for many people. It's not really the same thing. :s
The scale is much larger.

Okay, but speaking in universe, sexual attraction also includes preferences for elves/dwarves/humans in the DAverse....these are ignored. What is also ignore is morality and LIs will still want to get with you if you do something they don't like (it's especially easy in DA:O with the gift system).  These things are also very important to individuals looking for a mate.

The problem will not be settled in the hope that everyone will eventually get used to. It's too big.  I think you know.

Because it affects the human being, a sensitivity that can not be ignored by many people. There will be the same complaints, even more enraged if it does the same thing in DA3.

In the Mass Effect forums, there were 200 pages of confrontations in one topic in just three days ( I never saw that,I was impressed ) after that Bioware has only  confirmed that there would be gay romances.

People had an irrational fear that it would be the same as in DA2, with retcon etc. Bioware had to pretend that not everyone is bi for calm some.

It is obviously a problem.

Why unnecessarily engage in the path of confrontation predictable and not try to look for another solution ?

BioWare has decided to expand the romances, it is good. But he has to assume this will and has to give itself the means. The worst option is to curb all to get a false result. Which displeased not only many of the fans, but barely satisfy the others who say "it is better than less "

Not really an appropriate response to set a problem. A response that destroyed a piece of story, personality, character, etc.. a price too high for many people who didn't ask to see their world spoiled.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 15 juin 2011 - 09:43 .

[jlb524]

I'm not sure what they will do with Mass Effect.

I mean, in the next DA game...if they go the same route (4 LIs, 2 for each gender, all open to anyone regardless of race/class/gender/morality) is that a bad thing? If so, why? These would be new characters, so not 'retcons'.

[jlb524]

Sad Dragon wrote...

Tell you what, I can give this a go and try and have a deeper look into romances and how they could be improved and the problem with trying to improve them and all that surrounds it. Problem is that will most likely end up being a long post to type out and I really need to go to bed as I need to catch an early train for a buisness meeting tomorrow. But if you want I can have a look at it when I come home -- does that sound like a plan?


-hopes he didnt mess up the quoting-

-TSD

I would be interested in reading it.

However, understand that it seems BW is moving towards adding in more options for all with less restrictions based on class/gender/race/etc.

They didn't always do that...Baldur's Gate 2 had romances that restricted on race and morality, as well as gender (though, they were all heterosexual).  They also only had one male option for the female PC and three female ones for the male PC.  Come DA2, these restrictions are all gone and there are equal amounts of LIs of each gender.

I don't think anyone can say that the general direction they are going in is good (if unrealistic), but then say they should pull out stops with gender only...seems like a doulbe standard to me.  If you don't like the general direction of their romances then perhaps just don't do them...I personally don't like the Fable 'romances' so just skip out on that whole deal.

[Sylvianus]

jlb524 wrote...

I'm not sure what they will do with Mass Effect.

I mean, in the next DA game...if they go the same route (4 LIs, 2 for each gender, all open to anyone regardless of race/class/gender/morality) is that a bad thing? If so, why? These would be new characters, so not 'retcons'.

Because it's silly, because it answers to the policy, because it's cheaper. That's why.  There is no legitimacy to destroy the sexuality of the characters. It's already difficult to believe that, then if there isn't really good reason to do this kind of things, even more. It's bad.

There should be everything. Or at least just gay or hetero romances to satisfy everyone and finally close this chapter. We must give ourselves the means to do so, it is the only good solution. We need diversity, not everybody is the same.

When someone complains that there are gay romances, he has no legitimacy, because it doesn't affect his world. It's a fact. In the real life there are gay romances.

But when he has no assurance of the identity of each character, it affects his world. He doesn't know where he is, what they are.

Mine has been touched, Isabella is no longer bi for me, it's not longer a part of her personality, because all it's the same, there is no any more explanations, story, etc. She is an empty shell, she has no more uniqueness like Leliana.

 The same for all the characters who are bi.

AND NO, it's not for me to decide who is gay or hetero in each playthough. I am not God, the personality of the characters, it's not for me to implement it. It is a part of them.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 15 juin 2011 - 10:36 .

[Juggernaut241]

Im just glad Bioware has stayed progressive in the romance aspect by giving options for all types. As it is hard to please everyones tastes and standards for what they are attracted to and find ideal in a romance. Giving mulitiple options is a positive. But I feel the more specific you make it, the more problems you may run into with one group of people enjoying it more, while another takes issue with it. I think they keep a stable condition by making characters bisexual, but if thats the case they should create dialogue that would be ideally associated with your main character. Im sure thats a pain for Bioware to do. But then again they are a hardworking bunch so Im sure they would make it work.

I personally enjoyed DAO and 2 and the options available. The characters seemed a bit androgynous at times, (Isabela may be flamboyant, sexy and have big knockers, but she still fights with daggers and can whoop any man's ass and throw down whiskey with the best of em, most would not say thats "ladylike", thus she remained well rounded. While someone like Fenris was small in stature and had his feminine features, but his deep masculine voice, and rough fighting style gave him different gender qualities.) These are just examples, Im sure some will disagree.

The one exception though is Zevran, I could never imagine him as being hetero or even bi.

[Maria Caliban]

Sylvianus wrote...
Immersion, personality characters and story are very important for a lot and I do not see how their concerns would be less important than gay people.[/i]

This is not about 'gay people' vs 'people who value character.' That's an utterly disingenuous way to phrase the conversation.

Unless of course if it comes to politics.

Including same-sex romances is a sociopolitical comment. There's no getting around it.

[Sylvianus]

Read the post Jhon Epler and you will understand. What he said was political will. I do not care, I don't want the players and fans pay the price because of it.

If we must make these decisions is to try to make the best game possible for all without biased point of view about these things in real life.

There must be gay romances, because there is a large gay community, point, no need to further develop it. It is not because they are underrepresented in the media, in real life, that it justifies that everyone has to be bi in the game or another.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 15 juin 2011 - 11:07 .

[RangerSG]

Sylvianus wrote...

schalafi wrote...

I don't get it, what is all the flap about? To me it seems simple. In DA2, if you want to play as a bi/gay character, the opportunity is there, if you want to play strict, that's available too. DA:O and DA2 are the only games I've played that allow that freedom, so what's the problem?

Not a problem for you, but a big probem for a lot as said the dear John Elper. Many people want realism, many people want to see sexual identities in their game. Gay or hetero, it doesn't matter.

Immersion, personality characters and story are very important for a lot and I do not see how their concerns would be less important than gay people. Unless of course if it comes to politics. And it becomes immediately more troublesome. There is no more to do with the creation of a game.

I agree. The idea that everyone has to like everything feels more like political pandering than believable characterization. And if that's the case, that is wrongheaded.