368 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

Agamo45 wrote...

Given the ratio of hetero to bi/gay in DA2...

What is the ratio of hetero to bi/gay? I don't recall a single LI that was same-sex exclusive.

...I'd say they're far more than "equally represented".

The ability for some PCs to have same-sex romances does not remove the ability of other PCs to have opposite-sex romances.

In DA II, you can have a relationship with any of the four LIs no matter your gender. That is equal. You could also have a situation were one LI of each gender was straight and one LI of each gender was gay. That would also be equal, but would mean fewer options for the PC.

How much farther is it going to go?

Obviously in Dragon Age IV, the PC will have to sex with a man, a woman, and a darkspawn. All at once. And be the bottom.

Because BioWare giving us a wide-range of options can only lead to BioWare forcing our characters to be gay.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 16 juin 2011 - 01:37 .

[Pasquale1234]

standardpack wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

Good God, is this all you people care about? You just have to shove this "same-sex" crap into the mix every chance you get don't you? Are you not going to stop until every single character is bi/gay? This is getting ridiculous.

For many people, this is an incredibly important issue. Greater representation of same-sex romances in media is something they strive towards because, well, they currently don't have this representation. Unlike heterosexual folks, they can't watch a tv show, read a book or play a game and have a greater than 50% chance that they'll see a relationship or character that they can identify with in the same way that the rest of the population can.

So for them, it -is- a major issue, and one that goes beyond the level of 'I want more character customization options' or 'I think that there needs to be more branching in the story'. Those are game-specific considerations, and while they're certainly valid - they don't speak to larger social issues. This is not true of same-sex romance - there's a lot more going on there, and as such, it will remain a fairly significant topic of discussion on these (and other, I imagine) forums.

But does that necessarily mean you had to make EVERY romance option bi-sexual?

Would you rather they'd made them all gay?

[hoorayforicecream]

Maria Caliban wrote...
In DA II, you can have a relationship with any of the four LIs no matter your gender. That is equal. 

Nobody ever remembers Sebastian. 

[Maria Caliban]

Agamo45 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

Given the ratio of hetero to bi/gay in DA2, I'd say they're far more than "equally represented". And it seems that ME3 is going in the same direction. How much farther is it going to go?

There were no gay LIs in DA2.  Are you trying to say that bi and gay are somehow the same?

Don't see much difference, one just can't make up their mind about which they want to be.

It makes things much easier when people are open and honest about being ignorant douchebags.

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
In DA II, you can have a relationship with any of the four LIs no matter your gender. That is equal. 

Nobody ever remembers Sebastian. 

Oh. Yeah. That guy.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 16 juin 2011 - 01:44 .

[ImoenBaby]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
In DA II, you can have a relationship with any of the four LIs no matter your gender. That is equal. 

Nobody ever remembers Sebastian. 

*I* remember Sebastian.

[whykikyouwhy]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
In DA II, you can have a relationship with any of the four LIs no matter your gender. That is equal. 

Nobody ever remembers Sebastian. 

Perhaps because it's a non-sexual romance, therefore does not immediately come to mind, what with all the bedroom frolicking and fade-to-black with everyone else.

Or because his belt buckle is off-putting.

[hoorayforicecream]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
In DA II, you can have a relationship with any of the four LIs no matter your gender. That is equal. 

Nobody ever remembers Sebastian. 

Perhaps because it's a non-sexual romance, therefore does not immediately come to mind, what with all the bedroom frolicking and fade-to-black with everyone else.

Or because his belt buckle is off-putting.

You know what they say about guys with big belt buckles! 

[Maria Caliban]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Perhaps because it's a non-sexual romance, therefore does not immediately come to mind, what with all the bedroom frolicking and fade-to-black with everyone else.

Or because his belt buckle is off-putting.

But... everyone can fondle naked Andreste.

[Sutekh]

Don't see much difference, one just can't make up their mind about which they want to be.

Wow. You managed to be both incredibly ignorant and offensive in a single sentence. Quite a feat.

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
In DA II, you can have a relationship with any of the four LIs no matter your gender. That is equal. 

Nobody ever remembers Sebastian. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie]

Sebastian is a hooker. You must pay to have him 

[whykikyouwhy]

Maria Caliban wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Perhaps because it's a non-sexual romance, therefore does not immediately come to mind, what with all the bedroom frolicking and fade-to-black with everyone else.

Or because his belt buckle is off-putting.

But... everyone can fondle naked Andreste.

Ah...equality!

[jlb524]

Sylvianus wrote...

Because it's silly, because it answers to the policy, because it's cheaper. That's why. 

Okay...in your opinion...can you give specific examples as to why having all bi LIs lessens the game/romances somehow without just repeating 'they are bad/silly/I don't like it'.

Sylvianus wrote...
There is no legitimacy to destroy the sexuality of the characters. It's already difficult to believe that, then if there isn't really good reason to do this kind of things, even more. It's bad.

How was the sexuality of characters destroyed in DA2? 

Sylvianus wrote...
There should be everything. Or at least just gay or hetero romances to satisfy everyone and finally close this chapter. We must give ourselves the means to do so, it is the only good solution. We need diversity, not everybody is the same.

You assume everyone wants gay and straight and bisexual LIs.  I don't...I prefer removing the gender check on all PC romances.  I don't see how it will necessarily make the individual characters any deeper/better written if the others are more 'diverse'.

[tmp7704]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
You know what they say about guys with big belt buckles! 

They need big hands to unbuckle their belts?

[Caralampio]

I'm fine with all characters being potentially of any orientation. But not with the player being cornered into a "no win" situation (e.g., Anders). The game should "respond" to conversation choices you make early on and model the NPC's accordingly.

For example, in DAO a character would "sound you out" and the answer you gave him would trigger his subsequent behavior. In the Dwarf origin story, if your character were female, Gorim would make a remark that would be considered a mild romantic advance. If you rebuffed him, he would apologize and never bring it up again.

Likewise, in DA3 a potentially bisexual character could "sound you out" and depending on your answers, he/she would subsequently behave straight, gay, or bi for the rest of the game. I think this would be the perfect solution for all players.

Modifié par Caralampio, 16 juin 2011 - 02:42 .

[standardpack]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

standardpack wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

Good God, is this all you people care about? You just have to shove this "same-sex" crap into the mix every chance you get don't you? Are you not going to stop until every single character is bi/gay? This is getting ridiculous.

For many people, this is an incredibly important issue. Greater representation of same-sex romances in media is something they strive towards because, well, they currently don't have this representation. Unlike heterosexual folks, they can't watch a tv show, read a book or play a game and have a greater than 50% chance that they'll see a relationship or character that they can identify with in the same way that the rest of the population can.

So for them, it -is- a major issue, and one that goes beyond the level of 'I want more character customization options' or 'I think that there needs to be more branching in the story'. Those are game-specific considerations, and while they're certainly valid - they don't speak to larger social issues. This is not true of same-sex romance - there's a lot more going on there, and as such, it will remain a fairly significant topic of discussion on these (and other, I imagine) forums.

But does that necessarily mean you had to make EVERY romance option bi-sexual?

Would you rather they'd made them all gay?

I'd rather  that the romance options be more realistic.  Hawke goes around gathering companions that can fight and they ALL happen to be bi?  And don't even try to pull 'Sebastion isn't bi' because I read that you can get as intimate with him as the other real romance options.  I can understand bi and homosexuals want for more romance options but for those of us who don't want to be hit on by Anders who don't share the same sentiment, the only option to say 'no' was basically telling him to '**** off' with how much rivalry points you gained.  And in awakening Anders wasn't even bi, didn't even hint at it the guy seemed as straight as an arrow.  Then for DA2 they made him bi out of no where to appease to all the romance options.

Modifié par standardpack, 16 juin 2011 - 02:57 .

[Sutekh]

RangerSG wrote...
Options are great, as long as they're consistent with the character and setting. Options for the sake of options is not great. And when it's done to appeal to one segment of the audience over another, yes, that's pandering.

I really didn't want to go that route, for the sake of avoiding politics but...

You do realize that "appealing to one segment of the audience" goes both ways, and that such pandering has been done for ages in many, many, many games, only the other way around. But then, the "other" segment didn't have the possibility to be satisfied and was forced to go that way or the highway. That doesn't seem to bother you. Why?

As for consistency, you cited Anders in another post, but nowhere did Anders in Awakening stated "I only go for the fair sex". He talked about girls sometimes, but it doesn't mean he couldn't have gone for one guy or ten at some point. He just didn't talk about it, because it wasn't relevant at the moment (given that there wasn't any romance in Awakening, anyway, and he was more preoccupied by Templars). You just assumed he was straight by default. That's your version of Anders. It's as good a version as mine. We don't have enough canon elements to decide which is The True One.

Isabela is bi. That's established. We're left with Merrill and Fenris. Merrill didn't talk about that at all in the Dalish origin and we know nothing about Fenris. So, no inconsistency here. Maybe a weird "perfect storm", statistically speaking (and that is debatable), but nothing in canon prevents any of them from being bi. That very little aspect of their personality is consistent, as is them being straight (with the exception of Isabela) or gay, for Merrill and Fenris.

So at the start, we have three LIs whose orientation is undefined. How is that inconsistent to make them bi, knowing that in a given playthrough, even if you sleep with all four of them, you only have two bi out of four? (ok, three if you're male since Isabela is defined)

All this to say that your version of character regarding the topic at hand isn't everybody's, your playthroughs aren't everybody's, so "consistent" with which? Not mentioning the fact that sexual orientation doesn't define a personality. It's a data that only should be relevant to potential or actual s.o.

As for the setting... Thedas seems lenient for the most part. Some people like Oghren might be a bit put off by s/s relationships (if memory serves), but other than that, nothing. Maybe a bit of interrogation by some, but no judgment. Even the Couslands, high nobility and all, don't give a nug's tail whether "pup" sleeps with a boy or a girl. 

[standardpack]

True, Anders never admitted to being or not being bi in awakenings. Did bioware have Anders bi in awakening even though there were no romance options? Or did they make that desicion when they implemented him in DA2?

[MinotaurWarrior]

I'd rather  that the romance options be more realistic.  Hawke goes around gathering companions that can fight and they ALL happen to be bi?  And don't even try to pull 'Sebastion isn't bi' because I read that you can get as intimate with him as the other real romance options.  I can understand bi and homosexuals want for more romance options but for those of us who don't want to be hit on by Anders who don't share the same sentiment, the only option to say 'no' was basically telling him to '**** off' with how much rivalry points you gained.  And in awakening Anders wasn't even bi, didn't even hint at it the guy seemed as straight as an arrow.  Then for DA2 they made him bi out of no where to appease to all the romance options.

Hawke goes around recruiting companions and they all happen to be of approximately equal skill level, desire his input on their personal problems, and are overall not at all representative of the general population of Thedas. One in eight of your companions is a dwarf, when dwarves are nearly extincy. One in four are elves, when most elves are either extreme xenophobes or  live in ghettos where weapons are forbidden. That's way more unrealistic than them being bisexual (which, most of them aren't. Their sexuality changes depending on the PC gender).

And as for the Anders unwanted advances, well, for one thing, it's realistic that some people are pushy in that regard, but I do agree that it can easily be unpleasent in a way that games shouldn't be. The answer? Don't make LI's so pushy! Problem solved, with no changes to the status of same sex romances.

[Special_Agent_Goodwrench]

standardpack wrote...

True, Anders never admitted to being or not being bi in awakenings. Did bioware have Anders bi in awakening even though there were no romance options? Or did they make that desicion when they implemented him in DA2?

No, Anders never did state his sexuality. I've always considered him bi though. He did have some rather flirty/suggestive banters with both sexes in Awakening.

[standardpack]

MinotaurWarrior wrote...

I'd rather  that the romance options be more realistic.  Hawke goes around gathering companions that can fight and they ALL happen to be bi?  And don't even try to pull 'Sebastion isn't bi' because I read that you can get as intimate with him as the other real romance options.  I can understand bi and homosexuals want for more romance options but for those of us who don't want to be hit on by Anders who don't share the same sentiment, the only option to say 'no' was basically telling him to '**** off' with how much rivalry points you gained.  And in awakening Anders wasn't even bi, didn't even hint at it the guy seemed as straight as an arrow.  Then for DA2 they made him bi out of no where to appease to all the romance options.

Hawke goes around recruiting companions and they all happen to be of approximately equal skill level, desire his input on their personal problems, and are overall not at all representative of the general population of Thedas. One in eight of your companions is a dwarf, when dwarves are nearly extincy. One in four are elves, when most elves are either extreme xenophobes or  live in ghettos where weapons are forbidden. That's way more unrealistic than them being bisexual (which, most of them aren't. Their sexuality changes depending on the PC gender).

And as for the Anders unwanted advances, well, for one thing, it's realistic that some people are pushy in that regard, but I do agree that it can easily be unpleasent in a way that games shouldn't be. The answer? Don't make LI's so pushy! Problem solved, with no changes to the status of same sex romances.

I said 'romance options' not 'everything dragon age related.'  It goes without saying that a world filled with dwarfs, elves, dragons etc. wouldn't be realistic but i'm talking about the things in between not the lore.

Modifié par standardpack, 16 juin 2011 - 03:24 .

[Sutekh]

Caralampio wrote...

I'm fine with all characters being potentially of any orientation. But not with the player being cornered into a "no win" situation (e.g., Anders). The game should "respond" to conversation choices you make early on and model the NPC's accordingly.

For example, in DAO a character would "sound you out" and the answer you gave him would trigger his subsequent behavior. In the Dwarf origin story, if your character were female, Gorim would make a remark that would be considered a mild romantic advance. If you rebuffed him, he would apologize and never bring it up again.

Likewise, in DA3 a potentially bisexual character could "sound you out" and depending on your answers, he/she would subsequently behave straight, gay, or bi for the rest of the game. I think this would be the perfect solution for all players.

I like this idea

It would certainly prevent much discussions on the topic, although some people would still complain that you (the player) shape the NPC a bit too much. I don't quite get the scandal about Anders, though. It wasn't that much rivalry, iirc, and could be easily forgotten with no consequences.

I wouldn't take DAO as an example, btw. I remember a very weird conversation with Morrigan, who, while I very carefully avoided to even hint at a possible romance with her in dialogs, tore my Warden a new one about Zevran and how he had to choose because he happened to give her a mirror. He had to break up the imaginary relationship and got 15 disapproval in the process. The poor guy hasn't quite recovered yet.

[edited to change pronouns. I is not the Warden ]

Modifié par Sutekh, 16 juin 2011 - 03:35 .

[spirosz]

Caralampio wrote...

I'm fine with all characters being potentially of any orientation. But not with the player being cornered into a "no win" situation (e.g., Anders). The game should "respond" to conversation choices you make early on and model the NPC's accordingly.

For example, in DAO a character would "sound you out" and the answer you gave him would trigger his subsequent behavior. In the Dwarf origin story, if your character were female, Gorim would make a remark that would be considered a mild romantic advance. If you rebuffed him, he would apologize and never bring it up again.

Likewise, in DA3 a potentially bisexual character could "sound you out" and depending on your answers, he/she would subsequently behave straight, gay, or bi for the rest of the game. I think this would be the perfect solution for all players.

I agree with this.

I have nothing against any type of relationship, it all comes down to the individual being happy.  I don't think Bioware is going to cut out this type of content, but I believe they need to flesh it out more and make it seem believable, which for me, it didn't.  It seemed tacked on or forced on most of the companions and that might of been because of the game seeming "rushed", which is all speculation on my part.   

Modifié par spiros9110, 16 juin 2011 - 04:00 .

[Pasquale1234]

DrunkDeadman wrote...

standardpack wrote...

True, Anders never admitted to being or not being bi in awakenings. Did bioware have Anders bi in awakening even though there were no romance options? Or did they make that desicion when they implemented him in DA2?

No, Anders never did state his sexuality. I've always considered him bi though. He did have some rather flirty/suggestive banters with both sexes in Awakening.

Awakenings' Anders wears a single earring.  In his right ear. (which says "I'm gay" in my part of the world, but may not be true in Thedas)

[MinotaurWarrior]

standardpack wrote...

MinotaurWarrior wrote...

I'd rather  that the romance options be more realistic.  Hawke goes around gathering companions that can fight and they ALL happen to be bi?  And don't even try to pull 'Sebastion isn't bi' because I read that you can get as intimate with him as the other real romance options.  I can understand bi and homosexuals want for more romance options but for those of us who don't want to be hit on by Anders who don't share the same sentiment, the only option to say 'no' was basically telling him to '**** off' with how much rivalry points you gained.  And in awakening Anders wasn't even bi, didn't even hint at it the guy seemed as straight as an arrow.  Then for DA2 they made him bi out of no where to appease to all the romance options.

Hawke goes around recruiting companions and they all happen to be of approximately equal skill level, desire his input on their personal problems, and are overall not at all representative of the general population of Thedas. One in eight of your companions is a dwarf, when dwarves are nearly extincy. One in four are elves, when most elves are either extreme xenophobes or  live in ghettos where weapons are forbidden. That's way more unrealistic than them being bisexual (which, most of them aren't. Their sexuality changes depending on the PC gender).

And as for the Anders unwanted advances, well, for one thing, it's realistic that some people are pushy in that regard, but I do agree that it can easily be unpleasent in a way that games shouldn't be. The answer? Don't make LI's so pushy! Problem solved, with no changes to the status of same sex romances.

I said 'romance options' not 'everything dragon age related.'  It goes without saying that a world filled with dwarfs, elves, dragons etc. wouldn't be realistic but i'm talking about the things in between not the lore.

What I'm saying, is that there are a lot of other things that are unrealistic/inconsistant about the romances, that you have likely already proven to yourself don't need to let get in the way of your enjoyment of the game, and maybe their sexuality is another thing that you can get past, to enjoy the game to the fullest (because what's the point of games if not enjoyment?)

So, besides the racial and skill demographic oddities, consider that four out of six base-game companions that aren't blood relatives are sexually attracted to leaders of adventuring parties. None of them prefer more submissive personalities, or people who don't constantly risk their lives, or who aren't constantly giving them orders. Regardless of your most common approach to dialog, they find you attractive. Are you a brusqe angry fellow? Merril thinks that's sexy. Are you a smart alek? She finds that sexy too! Are you a soft-spoken diplomat? Again, Merril loves it. These are all quite significantly different personality types, yet all of your LIs are attracted to you regardless of your approach. Also, your class / attributes / physicality doesn't matter at all. Are you a strong, but maladroit pale dark-haired warrior? Merril loves it. Are you a rogue, weak in arm and will, but with deft dark hands and red hair? Merril just can't get enough. You a mage like her? A tan blond with a strong mind, but a neglected body? Merril still loves you. Either your LI is just attracted to everyone (well, that's true for Isabella), or their taste changes to suite your playstyle.

You already knew all of this, and it never bothered you, because it allowed you to play whatever character you wanted, and pursue the LI you wanted. Maybe you'll never want to pursue a same sex LI, but can you see how the DAII "everyone is Hawkesexual" system serves the same purpose, in the same way?

[Harid]

DrunkDeadman wrote...

standardpack wrote...

True, Anders never admitted to being or not being bi in awakenings. Did bioware have Anders bi in awakening even though there were no romance options? Or did they make that desicion when they implemented him in DA2?

No, Anders never did state his sexuality. I've always considered him bi though. He did have some rather flirty/suggestive banters with both sexes in Awakening.

He didn't flirt with males in Awakening, please prove your case. 
I recall a few times where he clearly stated his preferance.

Playing my one female warden, I had the choice after he stated:
Anders:"All I want is a pretty girl, a decent meal, and the right to shoot lightning at fools."

Female Warden: "Pretty girl. Right here."

There was no analogus dialogue for a male warden.  There was also the whole thing with Andraste's statue when you can call him a blasphemer for saying that they make her statue look attractive.

Look, I don't care whether a character is bisexual, gay, or straight, but the narritive should be paramount to fanservice, and the decision to make all of the characters Hawkesexual was folly.  Sexual orientation is a large part of who we all are.  Making it the way they chose to make it was not the right path to make to making interesting romances for everyone.  If a character is bisexual, gay or straight, that's part of what makes that character interesting.  I shouldn't get the feeling that I am so awesome that I can make every choice love me.  There are women at my gym that won't give me a look despite me wanting one, and likewise, there are women there that I would not send a glance to that are clearly attracted to me.  That's how love works.  There will be unrequited love no matter where you go in life.  If people need to play a game to feel loved, well, they need to learn that they can't always get what they want.

They should be pushing Bioware to make interesting non combat npc's that follow their orientations, and make your indivdual party members gay, straight or bi.  They should be making characters who are uber religious Andrastans not be involved with Blood mages instead of loving you because you are Hawke/Charname/The Warden, and you are awesome.  They should be making apostates want nothing to do with you if you are a templar, or at least, require you to work harder at it than my rogue.  But just as sure, as there is no discussion, no argument that a person could raise that would make me want to persue a relationship with a man, the same regards should be given to our party members, because that's how sexuality works.  But making them all bi is pandering.  It's a step in the wrong direction.  And please don't insult yourselves or my intelligence by mentioning Sebastian.  You know what I mean.

It's obvious that people are going to bring up budget, though.  A jrpg named Persona 4 could do it years ago, though, and given Bioware's predispostion to trolling jrpgs, they should be trying harder, rather than being upstaged by the same genre they have maligned in that regard.  If they keep pandering to wrong fans, they are going to alienate their audience, much akin to how I haven't seen a good anime since Samurai Champloo in 2005, because anime makers appealed to the wrong fans and alienated a large portion of their base.

Modifié par Harid, 16 juin 2011 - 04:27 .

[Ryzaki]

You forget the part where he just laughs and stops the flirting right there eh?