368 réponses à ce sujet

[Harid]

Ryzaki wrote...

You forget the part where he just laughs and stops the flirting right there eh?

Oh man, I have laughted off flirting at my last job daily.  I must totally be gay, amirite.

Thanks for missing the point, though.

Modifié par Harid, 16 juin 2011 - 04:28 .

[standardpack]

MinotaurWarrior wrote...

standardpack wrote...

MinotaurWarrior wrote...

I'd rather  that the romance options be more realistic.  Hawke goes around gathering companions that can fight and they ALL happen to be bi?  And don't even try to pull 'Sebastion isn't bi' because I read that you can get as intimate with him as the other real romance options.  I can understand bi and homosexuals want for more romance options but for those of us who don't want to be hit on by Anders who don't share the same sentiment, the only option to say 'no' was basically telling him to '**** off' with how much rivalry points you gained.  And in awakening Anders wasn't even bi, didn't even hint at it the guy seemed as straight as an arrow.  Then for DA2 they made him bi out of no where to appease to all the romance options.

Hawke goes around recruiting companions and they all happen to be of approximately equal skill level, desire his input on their personal problems, and are overall not at all representative of the general population of Thedas. One in eight of your companions is a dwarf, when dwarves are nearly extincy. One in four are elves, when most elves are either extreme xenophobes or  live in ghettos where weapons are forbidden. That's way more unrealistic than them being bisexual (which, most of them aren't. Their sexuality changes depending on the PC gender).

And as for the Anders unwanted advances, well, for one thing, it's realistic that some people are pushy in that regard, but I do agree that it can easily be unpleasent in a way that games shouldn't be. The answer? Don't make LI's so pushy! Problem solved, with no changes to the status of same sex romances.

I said 'romance options' not 'everything dragon age related.'  It goes without saying that a world filled with dwarfs, elves, dragons etc. wouldn't be realistic but i'm talking about the things in between not the lore.

What I'm saying, is that there are a lot of other things that are unrealistic/inconsistant about the romances, that you have likely already proven to yourself don't need to let get in the way of your enjoyment of the game, and maybe their sexuality is another thing that you can get past, to enjoy the game to the fullest (because what's the point of games if not enjoyment?)

So, besides the racial and skill demographic oddities, consider that four out of six base-game companions that aren't blood relatives are sexually attracted to leaders of adventuring parties. None of them prefer more submissive personalities, or people who don't constantly risk their lives, or who aren't constantly giving them orders. Regardless of your most common approach to dialog, they find you attractive. Are you a brusqe angry fellow? Merril thinks that's sexy. Are you a smart alek? She finds that sexy too! Are you a soft-spoken diplomat? Again, Merril loves it. These are all quite significantly different personality types, yet all of your LIs are attracted to you regardless of your approach. Also, your class / attributes / physicality doesn't matter at all. Are you a strong, but maladroit pale dark-haired warrior? Merril loves it. Are you a rogue, weak in arm and will, but with deft dark hands and red hair? Merril just can't get enough. You a mage like her? A tan blond with a strong mind, but a neglected body? Merril still loves you. Either your LI is just attracted to everyone (well, that's true for Isabella), or their taste changes to suite your playstyle.

You already knew all of this, and it never bothered you, because it allowed you to play whatever character you wanted, and pursue the LI you wanted. Maybe you'll never want to pursue a same sex LI, but can you see how the DAII "everyone is Hawkesexual" system serves the same purpose, in the same way?

True, but to be fair if bioware took the time or had the time (as the case may be) to implement having companions romance eachother I'm sure they would have.

Modifié par standardpack, 16 juin 2011 - 04:31 .

[Ryzaki]

Harid wrote...

That 

Ryzaki wrote...

You forget the part where he just laughs and stops the flirting right there eh?

Oh man, I haven laughted off flirting at my last job daily.  I must totally be gay, amirite.

That's totally not the point. 

It's obvious the flirting with the Fem Warden was seen as a joke beacause he's not attractedto the warden. Period. Male, female, nongendered platapus. Doesn't care. He's not attracted. 

And for some reason people don't seem to understand bisexual =/= gay and bisexuals can (and do!) express attraction in the opposite sex.  Every bisexual doesn't feel the need to go "oh I want a good girl (or a man that's good too!)". That's not how it works. Being a womanizer doesn't preclude bisexuality. Saying you slept with a woman doesn't preclude bisexuality. Liking women is a requirement of bisexuality so it can't be used as proof that someone's *not* bisexual. 

Do you understand? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 juin 2011 - 04:32 .

[Harid]

Ryzaki wrote...

Harid wrote...

That 

Ryzaki wrote...

You forget the part where he just laughs and stops the flirting right there eh?

Oh man, I haven laughted off flirting at my last job daily.  I must totally be gay, amirite.

That's totally not the point. 

It's obvious the flirting with the Fem Warden was seen as a joke beacause he's not attractedto the warden. Period. Male, female, nongendered platapus. Doesn't care. He's not attracted. 

And for some reason people don't seem to understand bisexual =/= gay and bisexuals can (and do!) express attraction in the opposite sex.  Every bisexual doesn't feel the need to go "oh I want a good girl (or a man that's good too!)". That's not how it works. 

Then why can't your male warden flirt with him in a similar way?  You had Gay/bisexual wardens in DA:O.  It's not like Mass Effect.

I'd follow your logic if both wardens lead to both of them flirting and then both of them got brushed off.

But it seems like you are closing logical gaps to fit your agenda.

Modifié par Harid, 16 juin 2011 - 04:33 .

[Ryzaki]

Harid wrote...
Then why can't your male warden flirt with him in a similar way?  You had Gay/bisexual wardens in DA:O.  It's not like Mass Effect.

Obviously because the writers didn't give the Warden a chance to flirt. If they had and Anders went "not interested in men sorry." then you'd have a point with your "he was straight in Awakenings" as it is...no. 

I'd follow your logic if both wardens lead to both of them flirting and then both of them got brushed off.

But it seems like you are closing logical gaps to fit your agenda.

Wat. My "agenda"? Yeah I'm gonna end this here. This will go nowhere fast. Enjoy your persecution complex. 

Agenda. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 juin 2011 - 04:34 .

[Harid]

Ryzaki wrote...

Harid wrote...
Then why can't your male warden flirt with him in a similar way?  You had Gay/bisexual wardens in DA:O.  It's not like Mass Effect.

Obviously because the writers didn't give the Warden a chance to flirt. If they had and Anders went "not interested in men sorry." then you'd have a point with your "he was straight in Awakenings" as it is...no. 

I'd follow your logic if both wardens lead to both of them flirting and then both of them got brushed off.

But it seems like you are closing logical gaps to fit your agenda.

Wat. My "agenda"? Yeah I'm gonna end this here. This will go nowhere fast. Enjoy your persecution complex. 

Agenda. 

Persecution complex?

Stating I want Bioware to open up their sexual orientation choices means I have a persecution complex?  More choice for all!  I'm held down!  Bye.

Thanks for showing me that I don't have to waste my time with someone who didn't read my post.

[MinotaurWarrior]

standardpack wrote...

True, but to be fair if bioware took the time or had the time (as the case may be) to implement having companions romance eachother I'm sure they would have.

Totally true. As I said in my first post, I really would have preferred if there was an Anderella (with a less stupid name), and I also wish that they had a special romance path for a blood mage Hawke romancing Merril where you spend a bunch of time reflecting on how all that bloodloss effects your libido. It's not a perfect situation, but I think it's the best thing Bioware can do in this area, and I honestly hope that as many people as possible can enjoy it too the fullest, because, hey, joy is fun.

[standardpack]

MinotaurWarrior wrote...

standardpack wrote...

True, but to be fair if bioware took the time or had the time (as the case may be) to implement having companions romance eachother I'm sure they would have.

Totally true. As I said in my first post, I really would have preferred if there was an Anderella (with a less stupid name), and I also wish that they had a special romance path for a blood mage Hawke romancing Merril where you spend a bunch of time reflecting on how all that bloodloss effects your libido. It's not a perfect situation, but I think it's the best thing Bioware can do in this area, and I honestly hope that as many people as possible can enjoy it too the fullest, because, hey, joy is fun.

It might go into the amount of time they had to make DA2.  DAO had 7 years under it's belt while DA2 barely had 1.  So they might not have spent time on romance as much as they wanted to. 

[Ryzaki]

Right totally sayin "just because someone didn't claim their bisexuality in DAA (where there was no romances to begin with) totally means BW retconned their sexuality just for fanservice in DA2 (where there actually was romances)! You have some agenda in believing someone might be bisexual and not have the need to scream it from the hilltops!" isn't a persecution complex. Okay then.

[Harid]

Ryzaki wrote...

Right totally sayin "just because someone didn't claim their bisexuality in DAA (where there was no romances to begin with) totally means BW retconned their sexuality just for fanservice in DA2 (where there actually was romances)! You have some agenda in believing someone might be bisexual and not have the need to scream it from the hilltops!" isn't a persecution complex. Okay then.

Look, this isn't War and Peace.  This is Bioware writing.  Let's not act like they are all of a sudden deeper than they have shown themselves to be and somehow mapped out this bit character to be bisexual from DA:O.  Why would they have you able to flirt with the guy as a female warden, and not flirt with him as a male Warden, when they made bisexual romances the way they did in Origins?  Leliana and Zevran and the romances in DA:2 are a clear sign as to HOW they make their romances, and trying to act like they are deeper than they are and made this guy (not quite) in the closet or obfuscating his sexuality with the male Warden, but not the female Warden when there is no reason for him to is disingenous at best, which is why I used the term "agenda" in the first place.  You are basing this off of nothing with no in game proof whatsoever.

Modifié par Harid, 16 juin 2011 - 05:00 .

[Ryzaki]

...Riiight.

You know better than the actual writers about their own character.

Mmhmm.

[Harid]

Ryzaki wrote...

...Riiight.

You know better than the actual writers about their own character.

Mmhmm.

I'm sorry I can tell when writers are making **** up as they go along, I'm very sorry.

But appeals to authority are always a great way of saying you got nothin' so, good day.

Modifié par Harid, 16 juin 2011 - 05:13 .

[Ryzaki]

Mmhmm.

Good day indeed.

[GiggleLooper]

jlb524 wrote...

I'm not sure what they will do with Mass Effect.

I mean, in the next DA game...if they go the same route (4 LIs, 2 for each gender, all open to anyone regardless of race/class/gender/morality) is that a bad thing? If so, why? These would be new characters, so not 'retcons'.

The reason I think making every NPC bi for the next DA game, is that there will be no limitations. I know that sounds weird but limitations can make for an interesting and realistic world.

I do agree that these limitations should also be applied to other aspects of a PC (race/morality/class) when developing romances, however that would take a long time and sophisticated plot design. So I think BW is right with mostly dealing sexuality, because regardless of race/age/location, the gaming population can relate to sexuality (You don't see posts about why elves or dwarfs are mis-represented for example).

By making all NPCs bi, the PC regardless of gender or orientation has the pick of the litter, I know very few people in the real world who are that lucky, so why is my PC that lucky? By limiting my choices for being a certain gender encourages me to replay the game as a different gender and seeing the world through their eyes.

An example I can use (though not gender related) is being a Mage in DA2, I've never played as a Mage in any fantasy game, however I'm willing to do this for the first time in DA2 just to see how the game plays having a brother instead of a sister. The same can be applied to see how I can develop relationships as a woman instead of a man, making all NPCs bi just gives me a similar game play experience regardless of my PCs gender.

Modifié par GiggleLooper, 16 juin 2011 - 10:54 .

[FieryDove]

GiggleLooper wrote...

By making all NPCs bi, the PC regardless of gender or orientation has the pick of the litter, I know very few people in the real world who are that lucky, so why is my PC that lucky? By limiting my choices for being a certain gender encourages me to replay the game as a different gender and seeing the world through their eyes.

Your PC is lucky because he/she is the PC. Having all Li's Bi does not stop someone from replaying the game to try out a different romance than if all Li's were not Bi.

I really don't understand all the angst over this. (to threads in general on this topic not really you)

[GiggleLooper]

FieryDove wrote...

Your PC is lucky because he/she is the PC. Having all Li's Bi does not stop someone from replaying the game to try out a different romance than if all Li's were not Bi.

I really don't understand all the angst over this. (to threads in general on this topic not really you)

True I could just choose a different NPC to have a relationship with, however I could still make the exact same choices as my previous playthrough and still choose any LI I want. By limiting my LIs based on my characters gender/orientation encourages me to play the game differently on my next playthrough and perhaps make choices that I would never usually consider.

I do agree with your comment about everybody having angst. At the end of the day BW are the storytellers and they have just let us be part of their created world (granted at a price), so essentially what they say goes. But I suppose by giving us the freedom to customise our PCs, people feel entitled to customise their game world too.

[iamthespark]

I think most people approved (or at least it didnt bother them) that Hawke-Sexual characters were introduced. I also truly believe that this was a great idea because everyone gets a choice within Bioware's limited resources.

Someone posed a *really* good comment about how Merrill will like you no matter what you do or say or look like in the game, and in a perfect game, things like that should make the NPC gage their attraction to you, not sexuality.

I also don't mind that the dialogue between m/Merril and f/merrill are almost the same, as long as they are slightly different (i.e., says "she", says I'm "sexy" instead of "handsome", etc)

Bioware hit a really good idea with Hawke-sexual and I dont think they'll go back.

Now if only I could actually *talk* to my companions in depth like I was able to in DAO, that would be really nice.

Also, as a side note to a post above me. I did romance Morrigan as a female, and let me just say that it was a great romance. There were maybe two or three words she used that didnt suit my gender, but other than that it was a very immersive romance, and did not seem fake or poor to me.

[Pasquale1234]

standardpack wrote...

I'd rather that the romance options be more realistic. Hawke goes around gathering companions that can fight and they ALL happen to be bi? And don't even try to pull 'Sebastion isn't bi' because I read that you can get as intimate with him as the other real romance options. I can understand bi and homosexuals want for more romance options but for those of us who don't want to be hit on by Anders who don't share the same sentiment, the only option to say 'no' was basically telling him to '**** off' with how much rivalry points you gained. And in awakening Anders wasn't even bi, didn't even hint at it the guy seemed as straight as an arrow. Then for DA2 they made him bi out of no where to appease to all the romance options.

Yes, it seems that they made him bi in DA2 so that female Hawkes could romance him. See below.

And, BTW - uninterested female Hawkes also have to put up with being hit on by Anders (and the associated rivalry points) in DA2 and Alistair in DAO. The better solution to that, imho, is to allow the PC to initiate all flirting - or to have the potential LIs sound them out first, as has been previously suggested.

Harid wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Right totally sayin "just because someone didn't claim their bisexuality in DAA (where there was no romances to begin with) totally means BW retconned their sexuality just for fanservice in DA2 (where there actually was romances)! You have some agenda in believing someone might be bisexual and not have the need to scream it from the hilltops!" isn't a persecution complex. Okay then.

Look, this isn't War and Peace.  This is Bioware writing.  Let's not act like they are all of a sudden deeper than they have shown themselves to be and somehow mapped out this bit character to be bisexual from DA:O.  Why would they have you able to flirt with the guy as a female warden, and not flirt with him as a male Warden, when they made bisexual romances the way they did in Origins?  Leliana and Zevran and the romances in DA:2 are a clear sign as to HOW they make their romances, and trying to act like they are deeper than they are and made this guy (not quite) in the closet or obfuscating his sexuality with the male Warden, but not the female Warden when there is no reason for him to is disingenous at best, which is why I used the term "agenda" in the first place.  You are basing this off of nothing with no in game proof whatsoever.

Other than the single earring in his right ear.

There are, of course, different ways to interpret the flirt option. Here is another: the female Warden was easily waved off, the male was not given the option because Anders is gay and they didn't implement romances in DAA, so they avoided it altogether. He went from being gay in DAA to being bi in DA2 to make him available to female Hawkes.

MinotaurWarrior wrote...

So, besides the racial and skill demographic oddities, consider that four out of six base-game companions that aren't blood relatives are sexually attracted to leaders of adventuring parties. None of them prefer more submissive personalities, or people who don't constantly risk their lives, or who aren't constantly giving them orders. Regardless of your most common approach to dialog, they find you attractive. Are you a brusqe angry fellow? Merril thinks that's sexy. Are you a smart alek? She finds that sexy too! Are you a soft-spoken diplomat? Again, Merril loves it. These are all quite significantly different personality types, yet all of your LIs are attracted to you regardless of your approach. Also, your class / attributes / physicality doesn't matter at all. Are you a strong, but maladroit pale dark-haired warrior? Merril loves it. Are you a rogue, weak in arm and will, but with deft dark hands and red hair? Merril just can't get enough. You a mage like her? A tan blond with a strong mind, but a neglected body? Merril still loves you. Either your LI is just attracted to everyone (well, that's true for Isabella), or their taste changes to suite your playstyle.

Excellent points. Not to mention the fact that Hawke can disagree with them at every turn and be downright mean to them, and they will still adore Hawke. Yet people conveniently overlook all of these other things and get twisted undies over gender/orientation being 'unrealistic'...

[FieryDove]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

 the male was not given the option because Anders is gay and they didn't implement romances in DAA, so they avoided it altogether. He went from being gay in DAA to being bi in DA2 to make him available to female Hawkes.

I would love to know where you got the impression Anders was gay in daa? If anything Anders was bi since he had relationships with men and most likely women as well ages ago in the tower as an apprentice. Yes? No?

In my games male or female warden -Anders wants pretty girls, plump wives and nubile mistresses. Not to mention I got a strong impression his *friend* Namaya was sweet talked by Anders with more than...err talk.
Although I admit sweet *talk* from Awakening Anders would be more than enough to win many a heart. imho

[Tirfan]

Oh the Anders thing, you know, in Awakening dialogue he mentioned just wanting to be free, have a nice girl and shoot lightning at stupid people (or something along the lines..) and the fact that in his party banter with Velanna he mentions finding tattoos on women incredibly attractive.. I always got the impression that he was straight.

Altough - I kind of wanted to make a DA2 playtrough where I would gayromance Anders and have a justifiable reason to have the Electric Six song "Gay Bar" playing in my head at a certain point in the game.. "let's start a war, start a nuclear war.."

[Sister Helen]

I prefer choice, myself. If all the companions are attracted to Hawke (or potentially so, if Hawke plays his cards right) then that means I'll have more options, resulting in more playthroughs.

The games on which I completed the most playthroughs so far are ME2 and DA2. ME2 because I liked the game that much and DA2 because I had the most dating choices. Had ME2 had more choices (i.e. all the LIs were bi- or Shep-sexual) I would have DOUBLED the numberof complete playthroughs. 8D

[macrocarl]

I'm sure there will be same sex romances moving forward. Look at ME3 for instance. New game coming out and they're adding same sex relationships. Whether or not homophobes will ditch the game or not, honestly I think from all of what I've read, people are for more choice for LI's and honestly it feels like the most progressive, 'right' thing to do.

[Pasquale1234]

FieryDove wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

 the male was not given the option because Anders is gay and they didn't implement romances in DAA, so they avoided it altogether. He went from being gay in DAA to being bi in DA2 to make him available to female Hawkes.

I would love to know where you got the impression Anders was gay in daa? If anything Anders was bi since he had relationships with men and most likely women as well ages ago in the tower as an apprentice. Yes? No?

In my games male or female warden -Anders wants pretty girls, plump wives and nubile mistresses. Not to mention I got a strong impression his *friend* Namaya was sweet talked by Anders with more than...err talk.
Although I admit sweet *talk* from Awakening Anders would be more than enough to win many a heart. imho

I believe I already addressed that question in the post you were referencing.

I actually don't have an opinion on the matter one way or another, but was addressing someone else's "logic" and trying to explain that there are different ways to interpret things we see in game.

I seem to be the only one here, though, who is acknowledging the fact that DAA Anders wore an earring in his right ear.  If that means the same thing in Thedas that it means in my neck of the woods, it is a statement that says, "I'm gay".

ETA:

Sister Helen wrote...

I prefer choice, myself. If all the companions are attracted to Hawke (or potentially so, if Hawke plays his cards right) then that means I'll have more options, resulting in more playthroughs.

The games on which I completed the most playthroughs so far are ME2 and DA2. ME2 because I liked the game that much and DA2 because I had the most dating choices. Had ME2 had more choices (i.e. all the LIs were bi- or Shep-sexual) I would have DOUBLED the numberof complete playthroughs. 8D

Me, too.  

And you sort of hit on the reason why I haven't played ME2, despite having downloaded a free gift copy.  It may have been incorrect, but I've read that the game provides SIX romance options, but ZERO for s/s relationships.  I understand they are (finally) going to address that exclusion in ME3, but if I can't have the same relationship through all 3 parts of a trilogy, playing the same character, I'm not interested.  In my mind, it's too late - and it seems they may end up retconning companions who have been there all along - which would essentially imply, for example, that a female Shep could not romance Miranda in ME1 and ME2 but suddenly can in ME3.  Not my idea of something I want to play.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 16 juin 2011 - 03:12 .

[FieryDove]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

I believe I already addressed that question in the post you were referencing.

I actually don't have an opinion on the matter one way or another, but was addressing someone else's "logic" and trying to explain that there are different ways to interpret things we see in game.

I seem to be the only one here, though, who is acknowledging the fact that DAA Anders wore an earring in his right ear.  If that means the same thing in Thedas that it means in my neck of the woods, it is a statement that says, "I'm gay".

Ah, yes I need more coffee sorry bout that. I think the writers leave things more open to interpetation on purpose. I have always suspected they not only live on tears but heated forum debates.

I don't think the earring means the same thing, but I suppose only the writers would know.

[Tirfan]

That earring thing is actually quite weird - it really depends on the place - from what I've gathered at least - sometimes the "gay ring" is on the left ear, sometimes on the right, sometimes it even has to be a certain kind of jewelry. (which is the reason I have earrings on both my ears - and still I get questions if I am gay, some people are just weird, I guess.)
The point would be, the earring could not be considered very solid evidence one way or another.