738 réponses à ce sujet

[Merllle]

I'm not sure if a thread about this have been started yet, but I couldn't find it with a quick search. If yes, my apologies.

I want to start this thread by saying that I've been a hardcore fangirl of BioWare since my teenager years of Baldur's Gate and yes, I am also aware that many whining posts have been started in the very same way. But I think what I have to say has some importance since it's a direct response to an article published in BioWare/EA's name.

Very recently, this article has been published.

Something that baffled me about this was this particular quote:

"But to be honest, we lost some fans as well. They were not pleased with
some of the innovations and things we'd done. We understand that and
we're listening."

Fans were not pleased with your innovations? Are you remotely serious? I think the problem with DA2 was very, very far from it's "innovations".

Let me give a quick recap on my personal opinion of the game.
I have mixed feelings about DA2. While I adored the characters and the storytelling (the writing team didn't disappoint a bit, once more), I see the game as the clear rush job it were. And we all must be sick and tired of reading about it. It's preety obvious to me that the whole narrative and concept of the game was built upon the concept that it had to be a game done in a short ammount of time. Why only a city and a few looped scenarios? Why come up with the wonderful concept of a story that advanced through time and spanned over almost 10 years if such realization would mostly by noticed in relationships and subtle details? I want to give my sincere kudos to the team who came up with the solutions to the time problem in the concept of the game itself - it was ingenious and proved for a hearty challenge. Kudos for the team to have developed the game in such a short time span But it still wasn't enough.

I am wholy convinced that if Dragon Age 2 had one or two extra years of development, it could have been one of the greatest games of all time. KotOR2 syndrome.

And now someone comes telling that fans were not pleased with the "innovations". What innovations do you mean? The innovations you came up with as fitting for the lack of time the team had for developing the game? Some of them were actually preety cool and brought innovation to BioWare games. I loved the framed narrative, for instance. But you must realize that those things were well loved. The problem, in my eyes, was the general lack of development time, which is well noticed all throughout the game.

It's preferable to take your time with the games you make and give them the quality they deserve. This has always been a characteristic of BioWare since I know them and I am very sad to see it being washed away. Scoring a sequel ASAP is a very big mistake quality wise and Dragon Age 2 could have been a thousand times better and yet, it wasn't. You claim you listen to your fans: now's the time to prove it.

I am sorry if I entered the whambulance, but serious criticism is something that must be heard, from people who care. Please reconsider your line of action.

From a fan.

[Shadesofsiknas]

I agree that it was the obvious rush that ruined the game by and large but there were some other design decisions that that were way off the mark for me. Skeletor darkspawn been one example!

However If EA had allowed the team to spend 3 years on the game they wanted to make instead of rushing them to make a game as quick as possible to cash in on origins success they would have a very strong IP that could sell a few more sequels and do it well.

The way I see it they will be lucky to break the 1M mark with DA3 no matter how much marketing spin they give it or how much they liking it to DAO.

[alex90c]

I think the worst bit was:

In a Dragon Age II interview with Eurogamer, lead designer Mike Laidlaw said the developer had "ideas" for a sequel and protagonist Hawke.

Hawke is a loser and deserves to die. Preferably through over exposure to awesome (i.e. the warden).

/hate rambling about Hawke off

I think the largest problem I had with Dragon Age 2 (among the other huge problems, like infuriating companions, and what makes it worse is I hate Hawke so I can't solo either) was that, well, the quests might as well have just been compiled in a book called "101 ways to initiate combat". I mean, I think the worst example was Aveline's personal quest where where you basically have to go up the wounded coast and just steamroll a load of mobs to complete it. Now compare that to Cammen's quest which involved only dialogue.

Anyway, I'd be rambling on for ages about points that have already been covered 296274602467346 times if I was to explain what was wrong with DA2 so i'll spare you all a huge essay, lol.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

I think that what lost people in Dragon Age 2 was not the fact that it was innovative, it was the fact that the innovations were half-baked, under utilised or poorly executed while really neglecting base elements of what RPG fans expect from a Bioware game. The lack of meaningful choice and the re-used maps really stick out for me. Granted, not everyone feels this way, but a lot of people who are RPG fans and who were turned off by the game, usually come up with 3 reasons - lack of choice, map recycling and combat. Combat is a more subjective area, so I won't touch that.

I do think that if they were given more time to develop the game, Dragon Age 2 could've been very good for what it attempted to be. Different from Origins, but not necessarily inferior to it. Just a different type of game, but a good linear Action RPG in it's own right.

As it stands for me, Dragon Age 2 has too many flaws from either an Action or an RPG perspective to be anything more than "average".

More development time for the next game would definitely be appreciated, so I'd agree with the OP.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 14 juin 2011 - 11:43 .

[DKnightPortela]

I fell asleep playing DA2. I NEVER fell asleep with a game before specially from Bioware. I think thats self explanatory.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

While I agree with most of what mrcrusty has said above, and with the short development time sentiments, I do think that some of the innovations themselves were disliked by many--not for being poorly executed or whatever, but just by existing.

There are plenty of people who just plain don't like the paraphrase system, for instance. Or taking away dialogue freedom. Even the voiced protag. A voiced protag is hardly an innovation as games go, nor is a paraphrase system, but they were new to the franchise because they weren't in DA:O, and so people who *really* liked the old system, were *fans* of that system, were inevitably disappointed by the changes. No matter how well done these changes might have been in a fully polished product, the innovations themselves still would have lost the game fans.

And while it's nice to know Bioware is listening, it's already been stated that the team really likes their paraphrase system and doesn't intend to go back to an unvoiced hero...I don't know that 'listening' will bring those fans back.

Edit: Dialogue Freedom = Casual companion convo. Being able to talk to companions outside designated talky areas.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 14 juin 2011 - 11:57 .

[Salaya]

alex90c wrote...

Hawke is a loser and deserves to die. Preferably through over exposure to awesome (i.e. the warden).

/hate rambling about Hawke off

xDDD

That would be epic indeed

Lately I fantasize with a DA3 prologue in wich players are mislead to believe Hawke is the main character. But then, suddenly, without any kind of warning, the Warden appears and kills him/her

Or, at least, some kind of prologue in the lines of Metal Gear Solid 3 and the Raiden mask xDD

Modifié par Salaya, 14 juin 2011 - 11:59 .

[BlazePT]

Girl, you know you speak the truth. I might be a new guy to Bioware, but I've come to know how they work and grew fond of it. I liked Dragon Age 2, but not loved - I worship Dragon Age 1 and still play it.
I liked the so called innovations, fast paced combat, rivalry, romance, new monsters and the city, but the rest? No!
But I've found a way around it, don't do any sidequests and you should reduce the recycling scenarios to half!
As a mean of protest I won't buy any DLC full price, sucks to be me.

[Satyricon331]

Salaya wrote...

alex90c wrote...
Hawke is a loser and deserves to die. Preferably through over exposure to awesome (i.e. the warden).

/hate rambling about Hawke off

xDDD

That would be epic indeed

As long as we learn about it through the Codex.  I don't want to see Hawke in DA3 at all.

You know, I thought we were safe from Hawke's being in DA3 since I thought they wouldn't want to remind the audience of the polarizing DA2.  *sigh*

[henkez3]

What DA2 suffered from mostly was a lack of developing time. I think that most of these "innovations" to the game would have been alot better if they'd had say, another year or so to actually make a complete game. I think the combat is a huge improvement from DAO (not the waves though). Also, BioWare needs to look over their procedure when they create a character. Isabela is the worse character in an RPG (J or W) that I've ever come across, she is just an unfunny token ****, and in every playthrough it gets worse and worse hearing her speak.

And imo, no matter what anyone says, having a voice character is much, much, much better than having a silent character mindlessly staring out in the distance when someone proclaims their undying love for your character. both male and female hawke's voice actors are terrific.

[KennethAFTopp]

I thought the word innovation would designate something positive?

[Rhjh20]

Will not buy if Hawke is the main character for DA3.

[alex90c]

The problem with a voice actor is that you need to actually like their voice. While it didn't bother me on my first playthrough, I noticed on say, the second time I ran a FemHawke that the voice really started to grate on my ears. I do love how the PC is now far more interactive, but to be honest I'd prefer if we simply kept the Origins system but say, made it partially voiced (with each of the different voices) so that for major parts like the speech before the end of the game in Denerim your warden could actually talk rather than letting another character do so.

Lately I fantasize with a DA3 prologue in wich players are mislead to believe Hawke is the main character. But then, suddenly, without any kind of warning, the Warden appears and kills him/her

^this

As long as we learn about it through the Codex. I don't want to see Hawke in DA3 at all.

^definitely this

Or since Bioware enjoyed making so many cameos, perhaps Hawke could talk to the new protagonist, offer us a quest (and a main quest, by the way) which involves escorting Hawke to a city of some sort. Once we begin the quest, the screen fades to black, then a cutscene shows us and our companions walking along the road with Hawke when he/she falls in darkspawn infested tunnel. Us and our party just walk past, and then the camera reaches down towards Hawke as he/she is forced to fend off endless waves of clownspawn for the rest of eternity.

Modifié par alex90c, 14 juin 2011 - 12:21 .

[k177sh0t]

What "innovations" were they referring to?

Exploding enemies?

LEGO-like Corpses?

Recycled Maps?

Pick-random-item-and-get-a-reward-no-questions-asked-quests?

I thought the framed narrative was good though.

[AngryFrozenWater]

I think that nearly everything "new" (like the streamlining and especially the things taken from ME) can be considered byproducts of a cost savings operation. There's more taken out than there are new things in the game. And I wonder what innovations they are talking about. I haven't seen any.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 14 juin 2011 - 12:30 .

[Jerrybnsn]

alex90c wrote...

I think the worst bit was:

In a Dragon Age II interview with Eurogamer, lead designer Mike Laidlaw said the developer had "ideas" for a sequel and protagonist Hawke.

Hawke is a loser and deserves to die. Preferably through over exposure to awesome (i.e. the warden).

Hawk is a loser.  I would only buy the next DAII dlc if it allows my warden to put Hawk out of his misery.

[Shadesofsiknas]

Yep the only way Ill spend on DA2 content is if Hawke dies in the storyline.

[Corto81]

Rhjh20 wrote...

Will not buy if Hawke is the main character for DA3.

Same.

Hawke is everything Shepard is not.

While Shepard was original and likeable, and the voice seemed to fit with any face (granted, because the faces and hair types were limited), he took action, he influenced the world, etc.

Hawke is just dull. And passive. And uninteresting.

[Merilsell]

Innovation and DA2 in one sentence? 

Boggles the mind, really.

Modifié par Merilsell, 14 juin 2011 - 12:56 .

[Apollo Starflare]

Good post Mer, definitely want the actual reasons DA2 fell down to be pinpointed and not have it 'fobbed off' so to speak, on the fanbase not understanding the changes. Some of the fanbase didn't, sure, but the bigger reason is the ones you state such as repeated environments and general rushed development. The writing was nigh perfect as usual.

Don't get the people hating on Hawke. These are probably the same people that hated him/her from the start because they couldn't play as their Warden again now using other, fairer, criticisms as a soap box for their own frustrations. Hawke wasn't remotely one of the problems with DA2 and I would happily play a game with him/her in the lead role again.

[Monica83]

I will not buy da3 if hawke is the main protagonist....

[ddv.rsa]

Rhjh20 wrote...

Will not buy if Hawke is the main character for DA3.

This. If Hawke is the protagonist in DA3 I'm renting.

[Morroian]

Merilsell wrote...

Innovation and DA2 in one sentence? 

Boggles the mind, really.

The friendship/rivalry system wasn't an innovation? Or the way characterisation was tracked? 

Monica83 wrote...

I will not buy da3 if hawke is the main protagonist....

You didn't buy DA2 so whats the difference.

Corto81 wrote...

Hawke is just dull. And passive. And uninteresting.

Not my Hawkes. 

Modifié par Morroian, 14 juin 2011 - 01:05 .

[Monica83]

ho yes the great innovation of the rivality system.... Hey you make things i hate but i stay in the party with you anyway!!!

Look at that innovation!

[alex90c]

Maybe they should have divided the rivalry thing in two. There's the "i'm being a dick to you because I can" rivalry and then there's the "I disagree with your views" kind of rivalry a player can have with a companion. It would have been better if companions differentiated between the PC being a ****** so as opposed to simply disagreeing. Then we can create the 'respects your views' and 'I hate you' rivalries unlike the current system which pretty much lets you get a companion to like you regardless of how you treat them.