738 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr.House]

adneate wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
There's alot of tweaks to be made but it's a better system then what was in DAO.

I don't see how anything based on that Rival / Friend system can ever solve the problem of gameplay / story segregation. It seems to enforce at every opprotunity the idea that what you do in the story has little to no effect or correlation to what you do in the game. In that I would consider it a worse system and one that has to go back to the drawing board for a fundamental and substantial redesign from the ground up.

Read what Teen said, that's the tweaks that need to be made.

[HiddenKING]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Everything is math.

The sad cold truth.

That's not sad at all.  Math is awesome.

Though the way schools teach math these days bores children and makes them hate it.

How do they teach math in school nowadays?

I dunno but my math instructor is pretty hot. She's got nice big... hands.

[TheAwesomologist]

Filament wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

You can when all they ask is that it be "easier" or "less complicated."
Marketing calls any simplification "streamlining" because nothing you feed the public is ever supposed to sound bad. but if you understand that they will paint absolutely everything in a positive light, you should see that sometimes simplification is really just simplification. And the people that are asking for this just want the game to be easier and less complicated to play. And one valid interpretation of this desire is just plain laziness.

immersion Still, maybe someone doesn't find it inherently fun to spend 30 minutes at a time adjusting their gear, the implication in the word 'lazy' makes it sound like this is supposed to be some kind of job that we're failing to adequately perform in as opposed to entertainment that's we're supposed to derive enjoyment out of.

I for one am not entirely displeased with the new companion armor method. I just think that if I buy/find something for my companion it should be reflected in their appearance. Maybe when I upgrade Isabella's armor the arm guard she wears changes, or maybe she gets pants. It doesn't have to be a huge change like a completely different armor. For those that want to play dress up with their companions they can go ahead and spend time adjusting colors or whatever, maybe via something like the mirror in the black emporium. But if you don't want to you don't have to since it's a cosmetic change.

[the_one_54321]

Filament wrote...
Well if it's a mind-numbing mechanic... eh, anyway, why is that inherently wrong? Maybe BioWare games come closest to the kind of game they want to play, closer than any of those hundreds of other games, it's just a few aspects they could do away with.

I serously doubt that trying to make one of the very few developers of unique stat driven games to be more like the same games that are made in the tens to hundreds every year is going to result in more variation and inovation in the market, let alone specifically result in the one game that they want to play. How about an action game that has character customizability? And there are already shooters that are becoming story based.

[Mr.House]

HiddenKING wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Everything is math.

The sad cold truth.

That's not sad at all.  Math is awesome.

Though the way schools teach math these days bores children and makes them hate it.

How do they teach math in school nowadays?

I dunno but my math instructor is pretty hot. She's got nice big... hands.

What does your teachers boobs hands have to do with this?

[csfteeeer]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...
Some fans have to go. They games they love are dead.

Some fans have to go. They are killing the games we love.

See what I did there? 

Admitted you're one of the people holding the progression of RPGs back?  :P:P

and do you admit that you are one of the people who is ruining the RPGs we love?

[the_one_54321]

Mr.House wrote...
What does your teachers boobs hands have to do with this?

They are why he didn't pay attention in math class and doesn't know that math dictates absolutely everything.

[hoorayforicecream]

TeenZombie wrote...

The friendship/rivalry system is one of the things I think DA2 did right, but it would be even better if companions (who were not vital to the main plot) had a "crisis point" at which they would not travel with the player character anymore, or even attack.  Rivalry can be cool, if you're working your way to a grudging respect with a character whose beliefs are different from the hero, but if you do something outrageous that a party member ought not stand for, it would be nice to know that you'll pay the price (by losing that character permanently.)

There are elements of this in the game already. Isabela and Fenris both have crisis points - Isabela's is pretty famous (famous enough that I wrote a FAQ about her with a large section dedicated to it), but Fenris will also permanently leave if you don't do his quest in time. Also, he will turn on you if you side with the Mages, and haven't sufficiently gotten enough approval from him. This isn't to say that there isn't room for improvement, but the bones are definitely there.

[HiddenKING]

Mr.House wrote...

HiddenKING wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Everything is math.

The sad cold truth.

That's not sad at all.  Math is awesome.

Though the way schools teach math these days bores children and makes them hate it.

How do they teach math in school nowadays?

I dunno but my math instructor is pretty hot. She's got nice big... hands.

What does your teachers boobs hands have to do with this?

..... I dunno lol    ¯\\(°_o)/¯

[jlb524]

adneate wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
There's alot of tweaks to be made but it's a better system then what was in DAO.

I don't see how anything based on that Rival / Friend system can ever solve the problem of gameplay / story segregation. It seems to enforce at every opprotunity the idea that what you do in the story has little to no effect or correlation to what you do in the game. In that I would consider it a worse system and one that has to go back to the drawing board for a fundamental and substantial redesign from the ground up.

I think they could add in crisis points throughout the game, like TeenZombie said, and even have the party members "screw you I'm leaving" dialog differ depending on if they are on the friend or rival path. 

Modifié par jlb524, 14 juin 2011 - 08:34 .

[Aaleel]

Ciryx wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

My only problem with the interview is that they still act like they think they did nothing wrong and that none of the changes were bad ideas.

They say that people didn't like their "innovations" like they were all good things and the problem is with the the person that disliked it and not the design itself.

It MAY also the case that people dont like the game and now steamroll their opinion over everything that changed. Since it is different its bad, yes? 
Most people dont stay objective towards the changes, some even think that there was no thought behind the decisions made. 

I for example liked the approach towards the story a lot, I am totally fed up with fighting a big evil and being the hero of the phrophecy that has to beat all odds and beat aforementioned evil. (and possibly die in the process for more pathos)

The story wasnt very well told in DA2, but that doesnt make the general Idea of it bad. 

The combat was a lot better than in Dragon Age: Origins in terms of talent trees, abilitys, speccs and possible Characterbuilds. (there were TONs of redundant abilitys in Origins. especially for mages) That the encounters of the battle were stupid (attackwaves etc) is on a differnt paper. But the general idea of the revamped Combat and Charactersystem holds very much promise. 

I have no problem with the story, they just messed up the implementation.  They didn't develop the family enough, they didn't let you play through some of the personal times, didn't give you any background on Hawke's life in Lothering, etc.  You were told too much and allowed to play through too little.  10 years is too long a period of time to try and tell over.

But the combat, no, was not fun for me.  Way too over the top hack n slash action for me.  Bodies exploding, probably twice as fast as it needed to be.  Enemies falling out the sky, characters jumping into the air slamming weapons into the ground sending out shockwaves, whirlwinds, rogues flipping, teleporting across the battlefield.  Just way over the top.  They need to scale it back and tone it down some. 

Plus reused areas, removing customization of party members and those type of things are not innovations

[dzizass]

"We tried to innovate and do some different things with the combat system and some of the way we told story. "
ROTFL. The most promising of the innovations they've introduced must be reducing the number of locations to like 10 for the whole game, the genre has stepped onto another level! And the parachuters jumping into the combat right behind your mages. Also I love how they made the plot not a story but a bunch of unrelated events! Way to go BW! I admit that I would have preffered a guy's rise to power to be the main theme of the story rather than the "save the world" story that's been recycled in all their other games, but Gaider and Co. are so incredibly lousy writers that they managed to create an even worse "story".

[oldmansavage]

Feanor_II wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
Why fans like you who hate everything asbout DA2 and cling to DAO like it's your babay are still on this site is beyond me.

Because I payed a bunch of euros for this game so I think that I'm in my right to express my opinion (that's the only thing I pretend).
Because I want my opinion to be heard so that Bioware can correct a direction that I undestand  it's mistaken.

Really I really HATE this "If yo don't like go away" mentallity, I'm just in my "right to disagree" (with all due respect and from a constructive approach, that's at least what I'm trying to do). A forum like this (or any other) must not be a closed community just to express how wonderfull the matter of subject is completly blinded to other opinions.

Agreed, only sheep bend over and take it and only sheep suggest this.  As a consumer you have every right to **** no matter how inane or intelligent your criticisms may be.  Likewise all the bend over and takers can weep and gnash about you.

[adneate]

Mr.House wrote...
Read what Teen said, that's the tweaks that need to be made.

I still think there still needs to be a fundamental rethink of what Friend and Rival actually mean because as it stands they use them interchangebly with Approve Disapprove situations from Origins. Turn down Anders Rival points, Insult a character Rival points, Flirt with a character Friend points. If anything both systems have to come back with Friend / Rival being clear indicators of the kind of relationship you're building with that NPC and approve disapprove being an indication of how they feel about your actions and treatment of them. Otherwise you're just going to get Origins silent hate flaw and DA2's Rival that sticks around even though you treat them like dogsh**t flaw.

[Aaleel]

I actually liked Origins system more MINUS all the gifts there were too many and allowed you to avoid consequences of your actions.  But the more people approved of your leadership, the more you inspired them, the more their stats increased like they wanted to fight harder for you because you were a good leader.

Plus if you pissed someone off you couldn't then turn around and romance them.

In DA2, the person could flat out say that they hate you then turn around and be living with you.  You could take a slave right in front of Fenris, and still romance him.  Like he would romance someone who employs slaves.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

How do they teach math in school nowadays?

They reduce it to rote memorisation.  They get handed the formulae, and told under what circumstances to use it.  It's all paint-by-numbers.

Imagine if, for young kids, instead of beind told how to calculate the area of a triangle, you instead showed them how they could derive the formula themselves.  Math rewards creativity as much as any other discipline, but it's like teachers don't like the math easier so they're just trying to get through it as painlessly as possible.  And there shouldn't be pain at all.  Math is fun.  Math is toy.  If you give the kids numbers and shapes, they shouldn't be worried about what they're supposed to do with them; they should be excited about what they can do with them.

That's how discovery happens.

[Brockololly]

adneate wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
Read what Teen said, that's the tweaks that need to be made.

I still think there still needs to be a fundamental rethink of what Friend and Rival actually mean because as it stands they use them interchangebly with Approve Disapprove situations from Origins. Turn down Anders Rival points, Insult a character Rival points, Flirt with a character Friend points. If anything both systems have to come back with Friend / Rival being clear indicators of the kind of relationship you're building with that NPC and approve disapprove being an indication of how they feel about your actions and treatment of them. Otherwise you're just going to get Origins silent hate flaw and DA2's Rival that sticks around even though you treat them like dogsh**t flaw.

Yeah, really they needed to clear up the terminology and what F/R actually means. I think part of the problem was not being able to directly interact with the companions early on to figure out what their own F/R paths meant. So the F/R hits seem arbitrary.

They should add in the Approval system as a means of personal like/dislike in addition to F/R which would be more of a barometer on how they view certain specific political/social/quest related issues. So you could have a clear "rivalry" with Morrigan because your Warden was mostly selfless, yet a high approval because they're friendly to each other when not talking about politics or something.

Like if a conservative republican and liberal Democrat don't agree on politics, they can still be friends. I think thats what DA2 was aiming towards, but the narrative doesn't provide much rationale as to why the companions should stick around Hawke as rivalry is not always consistently applied and at times it feels more like DAO's approve/disapprove.

[Melca36]

Zjarcal wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Some fans have to go. They games they love are dead.

The Jilted Girlfriend fans ("We'll teach BioWare to so much as look at larger audiences!") have to go.

The Game Mechanics Are Sacred fans have to go. ME2 got friend of mine playing RPGs that I never would have imagined would play one. Dragon Age just needs to find their analogue of that model.

Nope. They need make a compromise that appeals to all fanbases and somegamers need to stop being lazy and demand to have everything handed to them.

While others need to stop being arrogant and assuming everyone else is "lazy".

Sorry...But the Fetch and Delivery quests are ridiculous and lazy and I stand by my opinion.

As a gamer I don't like to be considered stupid by developers. Those  quests were stupid.

A 30 minute romp through the DeepRoads lacks depth.  It took me 20 minutes to do The Fade.

Is it wrong that I want my money's worth when I pay for a game???????????


That said...........


They can keep the rivalry/friendship system and continue to make strong female characters like isabela and Aveline and I will be happy and thats something we can AGREE on right?

[jlb524]

I think the terms 'friend' and 'rival' are misleading and perhaps they should change the labeling. I still think the idea of having two different ways in which a PC can interact with an NPC throughout the story is a good thing.

[Xayoz]

EA wrote...
We tried to innovate and do some different things with the combat system and some of the way we told story.

Awesome way to innovate rpg's storytelling by removing players' ability to make choices.

[Aaleel]

jlb524 wrote...

I think the terms 'friend' and 'rival' are misleading and perhaps they should change the labeling. I still think the idea of having two different ways in which a PC can interact with an NPC throughout the story is a good thing.

They need to get rid of the "rivalry" term for sure.  It has nothing to do with anythig going on in the game.  A rivalry has to do with competition, and your rival is someone competing against you for something.  Has nothing to do with someone's like or dislike of your actions.

Modifié par Aaleel, 14 juin 2011 - 09:01 .

[Morroian]

Xayoz wrote...

EA wrote...
We tried to innovate and do some different things with the combat system and some of the way we told story.

Awesome way to innovate rpg's storytelling by removing players' ability to make choices.

Except they didn't.