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Eurogamer Article: "EA: We lost some fans with Dragon Age 2"


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#476
csfteeeer

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Mr.House wrote...

Xayoz wrote...

The game just forces you into this one role.
You are Hawke. You are the champion. You do what is right and heroic.
But what if you want to play a rogue who only cares about coin and getting out of this mess with mages and templars, alive?
What if you want to be a mage who is all for killing every single templar, not matter the means?
A warrior that actually believes ridding the world of mages is for the best?

All I really wanted to see was more than one predetermined path to reach the final outcome (witch I tough was perfectly fine).
Even 2 would have been fine.
Witcher 2 for instance, is a good example of how this could have been done.

You where forced into the Wardens in DAO, even if you said no you had no choice.


that is a setup for the overall story.

#477
RinpocheSchnozberry

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Melca36 wrote...

Sorry...But the Fetch and Delivery quests are ridiculous and lazy and I stand by my opinion.


HIGH FIVE.  However, as long as as the FnD quests are tied tightly to a story, I'll give them a pass.  I was pleased with how they tied into the stories.  For me, I'd rather see less filler quests and more story quests, even if that means the overall game is going to be shorter.  If shorter, tighter games cost BioWare fans... I think positive word of mouth will bring more in.  First though... the grouchy old fans have to get the old heave ho.


They can keep the rivalry/friendship system and continue to make strong female characters like isabela and Aveline and I will be happy and thats something we can AGREE on right? ;)


Other hand now:  HIGH FIVE.  :D:D:D

#478
the_one_54321

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csfteeeer wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
You where forced into the Wardens in DAO, even if you said no you had no choice.

that is a setup for the overall story.

Also, with the Warden situation, your character is literally forced to comply and can express disagreement. With Hawke they say, "this is who Hawke is, no matter what."

I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing, but it is what it is and I can respect why someone would dislike it.

#479
thenemesis77

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 I really don't think they should have "kicked the sand castle over.  I liked the Warden character and thought that , that character would go beyond being a Warden, hell you were forced in it and that bigger days were going to head that way, but..imo, they did a bad job and brought us a character that was not ours and theirs and that was the first of many problems.  I thinkt the Warden is the best character to come to a story, all that happend in DAO and all that was left on the table and to have them throw that away was a stab in the back. I love the Warden, and not because they are a "Warden", it's what I went threw, the fire and the flame and the lose, the hurt and the helping of people, how dare you take that from me is what I felt. I felt no kind of love for Hawke as it was a character that was a box cut out of the writer. I Loved the Warden for what we made them as. To David and MIke, you really did stab us in the back by taking out the Warden, the game has to feel to it  anymore and to your damned lore......without characters that know of it, it's not worth the damn paper you write on and hell yea..thats my damn right to feel that way and I will never feel for your castle turnover and I will watch this time and be on my guard and not trust in you as I once did,never will I make that kind of kill shot on myself,never.  I will say this once again.....this is how I feel and not for everyone.......but I love a damned hero and my Warden was that and a damn person that I made and I will never forget what you at BioWare did to them.

Modifié par thenemesis77, 14 juin 2011 - 11:20 .


#480
Master Shiori

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[quote]ink07 wrote...

I seriously want you to disprove the fact that most of the design choices that made this game poor
[/quote]

Gladly.

[quote]ink07 wrote...

like reuse of dungeons
[/quote]

No argument there, besides pointing out that this was already acknowledged by Mike Laidlaw as a result of short development circle where they wanted to squezze in as much content as possible so had to cut corners.
I've yet to see anyone here who truly believes reusing dungeons (and other areas as well) was a good thing.

[quote]ink07 wrote...

removal of origins stories
[/quote]

Choosing your origin was marketed as an aspect that was specific to DA:O. They never claimed this was something that would be used in all future DA titles. DA2 was a story about a very specific character, so having multiple origins wouldn't make sense. Whether or not we'll be able to choose our origins in the future will depend on the type of story the writers are trying to tell. It may happen but isn't guaranteed nor is it an integral part of DA.

[quote]ink07 wrote...

a single city/character to choose from
[/quote]

Again, a story aspect that may or may not be used again. Personally, I don't see having to play as a more defined protagonist to be a bad thing, nor is having the story take place in a single city. The problem here isn't that the idea is bad, but rather that the execution wasn't done properly.

[quote]ink07 wrote...
cookie-cutter MMO like quests
[/quote]

You had the same type of quests in DA:O. Bring a certain amount of gems to the tavernkeeper, or deliver letters to certain people around Denerim. The difference is these quests has a bit more dialogue in DA:O and were presented in a way that made them more believable than "pick a random corpse in Bone Pit and deliver it to some dwarf you've never met before".
I do, however, agree that quests like these have no place in a single player, story driven rpgs.

[quote]ink07 wrote...

less customization options
[/quote]

If by "less" you mean the lack of options when it comes to race and origin, then yes. Everything else, like choosing your gender, looks, class and personality, was still possible.

[quote]ink07 wrote...
less dialogue options
[/quote]

Subjective. I didn't feel there were less dialogue options, just that you had a clean distinction between personality responses and investigate options.

[quote]ink07 wrote...

the lack of consecuences for your choices
[/quote]

There were consequences for quests not related to the main storyline, like "Sheparding Wolves" effecing how you get along with Patrice, sparing Gascard during "Prime Suspect" suspect giving you extra options of finding Quentin during "All That Remains" and impacting how the confrontation with him can go, etc.
Most consequences came down to which bonus quests you'll get in that act or the following one.

[quote]ink07 wrote...

no change in the city at all after "10 years"
[/quote]

There were some very minor changes like the statue in the docks, priests changing in the Chantry, recruits rising up in ranks over the years in the Gallows or a new archway being erected in Lowtown. But these were a very poor attempt at showing changes.

I feel that Redcliffe before and after the "Arl of Redcliffe" storyline handled change much better; with people mourning those they lost, doomsayers preaching in the streets, bodies being pilled up and burned, people leaving the town or dying during the conflict and possibly getting replaced.

Having a place truly change due to your actions is something that Bioware has never done quite right, imo.

[quote]ink07 wrote...

disjointed storyline
[/quote]

I felt the storyline was quite solid during the first two acts, especially with Qunari quests in Act 2. Act 3 experienced a rapid decrease in quality of the plot and failed to impart a true sense of purpose or even make your acion relevant.

[quote]ink07 wrote...

You may think that the story was the best ever
[/quote]

I don't, but I also don't think it's the worst ever or even objectively bad. It had good parts and some major shortcoming in the later part of the game. The general premise of DA2 was good and, looking at the stories of their previous games, pretty original. The bad execution is at fault here, not the idea itself.

[quote]ink07 wrote...

and the mashy combat improved on consoles
[/quote]

I play on the PC ad certainly didn't find the combat to be "mashy", at least no more than in Origins. It was faster, yes, but hardly action packed or "mashy" unless you really wanted to play it as such. But that's something I could also do in DA:O, by properly setting tactics for my companions and not bothering to control anyone but my Warden.

[quote]ink07 wrote...

whatever, the objective truth here is that DA2 is an inferior product, plagued with design mistakes
[/quote]

That not objective. Yes, the game has it's flaws and, yes, it didn't achieve the same number of sales as Origins did. That doesn't mean that there aren't people who enjoyed it despite it's shortcomings and enjoyment is what should truly be important to any player, not sales. Whether or not some design decisions could be considered a mistake is subjective and will vary from one player to the next.

[quote]ink07 wrote...

and EA/Bioware are still not owning up to that, rather blaming the gamers for not "getting it".
[/quote]

If you're asking them to proclaim that DA2 was a "mistake" or " inferior", that's not going to happen. Not because they cannot face the fact that the game has flaws or some things didn't work as intended, but because bashing your product like that is a slap in the face of anyone who bought it and liked it despite it's shortcomings.

Besides, all the words in the world won't make a damn difference if they don't reflect on design of DA3. I'd rather they demostrate their commitment to fixing the problems addressed by the community by making DA3 a better game, without the flaws of DA2, then to have them write long rants about how sorry they are and never follow up on that with deeds.

#481
hoorayforicecream

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ink07 wrote...

whatever, the objective truth here is that DA2 is an inferior product, plagued with design mistakes


This link may be helpful to you. 

#482
Sylvius the Mad

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I just want them not to force a voice on my protagonist. Either don't have one, or make it optional.

#483
Foolsfolly

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DA2's problems come in about 2 flavors:

Rushed Elements that would have been much better given more time....

...and Unfocused Plot.

A nice little subsection appears for untimely patching the problems the rushed game had. It took a month to get the first patch, which was substantial and still didn't correct many of the problems the game had.

Any 'innovation' they had wouldn't hurt the game if they were done well.

...except for perhaps removing companion armor. I say perhaps because if the upgrades were more substantial and changed appearance of the companion as you get them..well that would have helped a bit more. But I'd still have problems with the fact that most armor pieces I get from loot drops are just junked items.

#484
hoorayforicecream

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I just want them not to force a voice on my protagonist. Either don't have one, or make it optional.


I don't mind them giving me the option of several voices to choose from, then letting me make that choice. I get the feeling that you do, though.

#485
Bejos_

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RPGCodex are gobbling this up. Ah, honest trolls are funny.

"EA: We didn't learn a s*** from this except that 'some people are backwards and don't like progress'."

And look, something contributory:
"What Bioware is going to change in Dragon Age 3 is they'll make sure no copy/paste shows in the game, and that fight scenarios will be designed by hand now instead of using the wave-method. Other than that, the game will still have level-scaling, dialogue wheel, 3 classes, a fixed main character, corridor maps, and game length shorter than DA:O's. The main difference will be in how they market the game. They will make sure to put down DA2 at every opportunity using buzzwords and empty promises, and never actually address what they are going to improve in DA3."

Erynnar, I'm sorry :( I hate the game, but you deserve to not be made to feel like a dolt, at least by the game's developer and publisher.

Here's the link.

http://rpgcodex.net/...der=asc&start=0

#486
Master Shiori

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I just want them not to force a voice on my protagonist. Either don't have one, or make it optional.


I don't think that's ever going to be optional, at least not due to the cost of recording VO's. Not that I hate the silent protagonist or anything like that, but to me the whole "voiced or silent protagonist" thing doesn't really matter all that much, except I'll admit that I like the more cinematic approach to storytelling that Bioware is using in ME and DA2.

#487
Sylvius the Mad

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hoorayforicecream wrote...

I don't mind them giving me the option of several voices to choose from, then letting me make that choice.

I think that would be hugely expensive.  Driving up development costs forces them to need to sell more copies, and selling more copies means targetting the broader non-RPG audience.  And that hasn't produced a positive outcome yet.

#488
Sylvius the Mad

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Master Shiori wrote...

I don't think that's ever going to be optional, at least not due to the cost of recording VO's.

Why would that make any difference?  They'd still record just the one voice, but we'd have the option to turn it off.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 14 juin 2011 - 11:47 .


#489
Guest_wastelander75_*

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For the male VA, hell, just hire Nolan North. 99.999% of the games out there has him doing something somewhere. Plus he's good with accents.

Female....well.....hire his wife? Just a thought.

#490
DanaScu

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RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...
Some fans have to go. They games they love are dead.

Some fans have to go. They are killing the games we love.

See what I did there? :mellow:


Admitted you're one of the people holding the progression of RPGs back?  :P:P:P


Rather be one of the critical "you need to improve certain things" constructive criticism group than the "No matter what you do its fine; shorter games, less story, no stats, fast action, nothing too complicated, push one button and half the game plays itself" group you're the leader of, Rinpoche. Or possibly the only member of. You've explained before how they game could be improved even more by adding more cinematics, less interaction, and Selune forbid, nothing that needs reading at any cost.

Your "progression" is already here. Its called a movie. You do have to push one button, but you've indicated that pushing one button once is something you can handle. Push the button, start the movie, and enjoy your sweeping cinematics.

#491
Mr.House

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

I don't think that's ever going to be optional, at least not due to the cost of recording VO's.

Why would that make any difference?  They'd still record just the one voice, but we'd have the option to turn it off.

Pretty much, I don't see hwy Bioware can't do that, and also dirch the wheel and uset he DAO dialgo system. If you use voice then what you just picked is said to you so you know what your character is gonig to be said. The wheel has alot of flaws, it's better in DA2 then ME/2 but it still has way too many flaws.

#492
hoorayforicecream

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I don't mind them giving me the option of several voices to choose from, then letting me make that choice.

I think that would be hugely expensive.  Driving up development costs forces them to need to sell more copies, and selling more copies means targetting the broader non-RPG audience.  And that hasn't produced a positive outcome yet.


Mass Effect seems pretty successful and well-received. Your opinion may differ though. :?

#493
Aaleel

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If they're going to keep the wheel and the same three tones, they may as well not even bother paraphrasing, just put three icons on the screen and a heart when appropriate. Wouldn't make one stitch of difference.

If they're not going to write it all out, may as well just use icons.

#494
Xewaka

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hoorayforicecream wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
I don't mind them giving me the option of several voices to choose from, then letting me make that choice.

I think that would be hugely expensive.  Driving up development costs forces them to need to sell more copies, and selling more copies means targetting the broader non-RPG audience.  And that hasn't produced a positive outcome yet.

Mass Effect seems pretty successful and well-received. Your opinion may differ though. :?

Mass Effect had one male and one female set of voices.

#495
tmp7704

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Persephone wrote...

Oh, but it is, by Varric, Cassandra and *Spoiler*.

No, it really isn't. No matter which option you take the Champion is gone at the end of the game, and the state of Kirkwall is either not discussed at all, or there's brief mention the templars have restored the order. Which boils down to the same thing because if you choose the templar path then it's also the templars who restore the order. And neither option talks about the things Master Shiori did, which makes these things well, unsupported speculation Image IPB

Modifié par tmp7704, 15 juin 2011 - 12:17 .


#496
hoorayforicecream

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Xewaka wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
I don't mind them giving me the option of several voices to choose from, then letting me make that choice.

I think that would be hugely expensive.  Driving up development costs forces them to need to sell more copies, and selling more copies means targetting the broader non-RPG audience.  And that hasn't produced a positive outcome yet.

Mass Effect seems pretty successful and well-received. Your opinion may differ though. :?

Mass Effect had one male and one female set of voices.


Oh, I was apparently unclear about what I meant by "voice". I didn't mean voice as in sound. I meant voice as in viewpoint... diplomatic, humorous, and direct are all examples of what I meant by "voice".

#497
ElLemur

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Persephone wrote...

Do you REALLY expect the devs to bash their own game? And if they did say "Well, this/that really didn't turn out well but we'll try harder the next time!" it would also be twisted into something it is not. Bioware has aknowledged that a part of the (vocal) fanbase wasn't happy and that they're listening/working with feedback. Good enough for me. I just hope than none of the things I loved about DAII will be tossed aside. Yeah, that's me, I'm selfish like that.


I definitely agree. There are elements of DA2 that definitely need more work, such as map variation, but there are also things that are a considerable step up from Origins: The combat system and the voiced character are the most deciding features for me. They are not numerous, but they dominate more or less the two only things you do in an action RPG: fight and talk. In Origins, combat was clunky and slow, and dialogue was a frustratingly one-sided affair to experience. This has improved greatly in DA2, which is one of the reasons why I prefer to play it over Origins, even though certain more marginal features work better in the first game.

That said, there are also things from Origins that I miss. Most of the points I have have already been covered by others, such as the recycled maps, but in all my self-importance I believe that I have some "innovation" to add (see, I used the forbidden word, troll me down!):
The mood icon in the dialogue wheel is helpful, but it kind of simplifies conversation in the wrong way: you are left with very few options (some of which turn out to be dramatically different in speech than in paraphrase). It would be nice if you didn't have to use a corny catchphrase every time you wanted to flirt with Isabela, if you could accept or refuse quests with varying degrees of enthusiasm, or if a series of the right words at the right time could turn out similar to the Persuade/Intimidate feature in Origins. I really liked how you had to think about a certain dialogue option, because there was a chance that it could go either way, and that there was a risk of being caught lying.
The fixed dialogues are also a real pain in the trousers! I enjoyed the easter eggs hidden in the different conversations with companions in DA:O, that you had to invest time getting to know them before they would confide in you or offer you a companion quest. The way it works at the moment, you have to pick every single word carefully, because chances are that your next conversation with that person is half a chapter down the road. To add insult to injury, they even tell you in the tips displaying on the loading screen to "check by your companions' home bases frequently to have longer conversations than you can have in the field". My back pocket, you can! All you get is a home base specific non-dialogue one-liner.
Another thing, which also bugged me a bit about Origins, is the feeling of a mandatory linear path. In Origins it was understandable, as you had an obligatory Archdemon to defeat, but when your quest is to "rise to power, by any means necessary", you should be given a bit more room to rummage. It's not much fun that you cannot advance without having completed certain main plot quests. I can think os hours of replay value to be had if the choice was between action and inaction as well as between different types of actions. Reject a main plot quest, and see how the events unfold on their own. Because the game plot spans such a vast period of time, there is ample opportunity for these kinds of decisions to come back and haunt you at a later point. Perhaps it is just my experiment to see how many templar/mage conflicts I can keep my rogue out of that makes me feel this way, but I think it would make it much more worth our while to revisit the game, especially because it would also allow us to better manage the time it takes to complete a playthrough.
The final thing, which is more cosmetic than anything else, is that I miss the lighting from Origins. I like the artwork in DA2 (especially the Chantry has received a nice overhaul), and I think the UI works just fine, but it just doesn't have the same feel to it as e.g. the deep roads sequences from Origins, or the lighting on the characters' faces when they sit around the campfire. The way light and shadow interact works a lot better in the first game, while DA2 just feels too bland. The only place I can think of where it works are the frame scenes with Cassandra and Varric, and that's really a shame.

I know the odds of my fanboy-rant reaching the ears of BioWare is about the same as all the other poor sods in this place, but my hope is that the more voices saying the same thing, the greater the chance that they'll listen.

Collective P.S.: If your Hawke is dull, try making some more exciting choices ;)

#498
Master Shiori

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Xewaka wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...
The fact that the camp gets wiped out makes no difference ingame. Once I've completed "Nature of the Beast" I have no reason to return to Bracillian Forest unless I want to buy something from the dalish vendor or complete one of the side quests there.
Nobody notices that the Dalish are gone. The fact that they're gone has no impact on anything outside of who joins your army.
Therefore, the true consequences of curing the werewolves, killing them or the Dalish or Zathrian dying only become evident when the epilogue describes what happened in the months and years after your victory.
My choices of siding with mages or templars in DA2 won't have an effect on preventing the greater Mage vs Templar war from happening, but they will effect Kirkwall in the immediate future. Either many mages will survive the Annulment and new templars will eventualy arrive to restore order or I'll destroy the Circle and therefore ensure that Kirkwall remains stable without outside intervention, which could have disasterous consequences for the city (Exalted March).

So your choices in DA 2 only affect the epilogue, just like what you're critiquing DA:O for?


I'm not criticising DA:O. I'm simply pointing out that the previous posters comment about seeing the long term consequences of your actions in DA:O, inside the game itself, is incorrect. You only read about them after the game is over.
Yes, my choices in DA2 also affect the epilogue and I have no problem with that either, except to point out that they do affect Kirkwall, just not the larger conflict happening in the world at the time.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 15 juin 2011 - 12:29 .


#499
tmp7704

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Master Shiori wrote...

Yes, my choices in DA2 also affect the epilogue and I have no problem with that either, except to point out that they do affect Kirkwall, just not the larger conflict happening in the world at the time.

Except you don't actually know whether your choices affect even Kirkwall, because the epilogue makes no mention of that...

#500
Oopsieoops

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

I don't think that's ever going to be optional, at least not due to the cost of recording VO's.

Why would that make any difference?  They'd still record just the one voice, but we'd have the option to turn it off.

The thing is that the voice is part of a whole 'cinematic' presentation, where you have the PC not only speaking but interacting, gesticulating and making facial expressions. To simply mute the PC while keeping everything else going as if they were voiced would end up extremely silly; redoing every scene so as to account for the mute PC on the other hand would be costly and no doubt be considered wasteful. I hate the voiced PC and the cinematic fever as much as you do, but I honestly don't see accounting for both possiblities on the same game.