738 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica83]

csfteeeer wrote...

Monica83 wrote...

csfteeeer wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

ink07 wrote...
whatever, the objective truth here is that DA2 is an inferior product, plagued with design mistakes

This link may be helpful to you. 

No. This is not clever or applicable in this case.

This is not a matter of "I don't like it." 
This is a matter of copy-paste areas that aren't even re-skinned, and enemy mobs that spawn out of thin air right in front of you in an "RPG" is just plain lazy shoddy design work.

And that is a statement of objective assessment, not opinion.

Words like "inferior", "lazy", and "shoddy" are rarely objective. If you think that they aren't opinionated, I think you could probably learn a thing or two from Arthur and his friends. 

i'll give you a little segment:

"Theres like 30.000 books in the circle tower, so when you go to the circle tower, theres always books all over the floor, were you paying any attention to that ? did you even know before a said that? No!
so the designers went through all that detail for no reason"

sure, a detailed world.... God Forbid!

Tell me this doesn't Scream laziness.

THe example of the library make me so smile...

If i remember that tower and i see how is...heerm detailed kirkwall..
This thing is almost demential....

After the shock to see kirkwall i installed the witcher 2 and then....

WOW...that's detail...

See nice fornished locations or awesome exterior full of things for me add immersion... Kirkwall is so empty and suffear a great lack of detail..

In fact from how is complex kirkwall im able to reproduce it in minecraft.....

 about the Minecraft thing, i might actually try that...
agreed, The Witcher 2's attention to Detail is awe-inspiring.
that is why think BioWare should get inspirations (in terms of mechanics and gameplay) from The Witcher 2 for DA3, making a detailed city is a work of care and love, and i hope doesn't feel like being arrogant and that they don't want to take anything from other games, IF that's the case (i reapeat, IF that's the case), then that's incredibly silly, a world like TW2's is a technological advancement, no one is gonna be like "you ripped off The Witcher 2!!!".

Its simple in fact kirkwall is very linear as a city design.. The minecraft engine have limitation.. But riproduce kirkwall in it is very very simple just try it and see...

[csfteeeer]

DinoSteve wrote...

can someone explain to me what was so wrong with dragon age origins that they had to make the next game like dragon age 2, it had the most boring combat system I can ever remember playing and the majority of characters were awful the only one I liked really was varric and the best bit is of the entire game is were you kill anders, god dammit I hate that character and for a game called dragon age the high dragons was awful, it lacked the awe of the high dragon from origins.

and Stupidly cheap, don't forget cheap.

[Morroian]

csfteeeer wrote...

i'll give you a little segment:
"Theres like 30.000 books in the circle tower, so when you go to the circle tower, theres always books all over the floor, were you paying any attention to that ? did you even know before a said that? No!so the designers went through all that detail for no reason"
sure, a detailed world.... God Forbid!
Tell me this doesn't Scream laziness.

That was David Silverman marketing idiot, not dev.

ink07 wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...
You had the same type of quests in DA:O. I do, however, agree that quests like these have no place in a single player, story driven rpgs.

My point again, why have them in the sequel if they are just mindless filler nobody likes? 

The way it was done in DA2 didn't bother me, you find an item while you;re out doing another quests and you return it to its owner, big deal, and they aren't nearly as prevalent as people make out.

ink07 wrote...
Of course, but my point is... are this objectively good design choices? Bioware loves to congratulate themselves on the kind of branching stories they write, on the character development, etc. None of this is to be found in DA2, 

Are branching stories a Bioware tenet? Character development is and there is plenty of that in DA2.

ink07 wrote...
nothing important changes, sometimes there is no difference between YES & NO. And it is all made worse by their decisions to ignore the previous game: killed Leilana? she shows up anywyas, didn't pick Sebastian? he shows up! These are flaws in design augmented by the minuscule dev time. A sensible developer would've taken a step back, look closely at all of this and decide to push back the game to make it goo, not "OK".

Or is it a point of the game? This was raised by someone a week or so ago, that the powerlessness of the player is a deliberate reflection of hawke's powerlessness in game.

ink07 wrote...
I used to like Bioware, heck I am even looking forward to ME3 so I don't see why my complaints again are to be moot or sileneced by a few DA fanfic writers and cheerleaders in these forums. I have taken upon myself to bash this awful game any chance I get and I will continue to do so until I think they don't deserve it. I don't mind if they don't care, I do and others do as well, and I don't think it is too much to ask for a little respect towards the customer.

You feel entitled when you have no right to feel it. If a favourite author writes a bad book do you have the right to demand he rewrite it? 

Modifié par Morroian, 15 juin 2011 - 03:43 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Morroian wrote...
Or is it a point of the game? This was raised by someone a week or so ago, that the powerlessness of the player is a deliberate reflection of hawke's powerlessness in game.

edit: to avoid being called a troll.

mrcrusty wrote...

What would be nice is if, like Alpha Protocol, they had been able to integrate more choice and power into the narrative while keeping the same personality tracking system.

I just don't think it's a good idea to offer a clear choice, then disregard it completely. Especially when it's central to the narrative. It runs counter to what RPGs should strive for imo - the ability to roleplay a character of your choosing in a well crafted narrative and setting that responds to and rewards your choices appropriately, whether it is in character, narrative, playstyle, etc.

Now, some people can argue that Dragon Age 2 is just esoteric and that it's lack of choice was commentary on the inherent helpless nature of our champion. But I find that a complete and utter cop out. Ranks up there with the ninja waves being a result of Varric's unreliable narration. In other words - BS.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 15 juin 2011 - 04:01 .

[ink07]

^ I laughed as well, but sadly it has been Bioware discourse all along. Any flaw might as well be considered a stylistic choice for some esoteric reason. eg. Assets were reused to give the audience "more content" which is blatantly false.

Alpha Protocol is such an awesome albeit deeply flawed game. Obsidian needs to concentrate themselves on designing/writing stories and let other studios handle the combat/technical side of things.

Morroian wrote...
You feel entitled when you have no right to feel it. If a favourite author writes a bad book do you have the right to demand he rewrite it? 

A videogame as an interactive entertainment product/service is very different from a book or movie, if you can't see that simple fact then I can't help you. You talk about "entitlement" so let me turn that question then: Do you demand of your favourite book author a competently run customer service because you can't open your book to read it? Do the words in your book sometimes jumble up for no reason at all that you require the author's technical  services?

I am -in any case- not demanding anything, I am not even raising story related criticism like you suggest. Simply I, like many others, don't feel satisfied with the product we paid for. Sadly, we can't ask for a refund and we also feel that BW in particular is going in a direction that will do them no good as a games developer, so it is in our best interest to voice our opinions as loudly as we can before we drop another $60 their way.

I am not demanding they give me anything, I am merely suggesting that if Bioware were any other kind of company a few of those points of good will I raised would convince much more than their half-assed insulting PR responses. Of course they are in a good postion to ignore me, and seem so far very comfortable doing so, so I don't see what your point/problem is.

Modifié par ink07, 15 juin 2011 - 04:12 .

[Morroian]

ink07 wrote...

^ I laughed as well, but sadly it has been Bioware discourse all along. Any flaw might as well be considered a stylistic choice for some esoteric reason.

I'm not sure its correct but it was an interesting debate.

ink07 wrote...

eg. Assets were reused to give the audience "more content" which is blatantly false.

Its not false, the choice was less quests or more asset recycling cause they didn't have the budget to create more areas. Given those choices I'd rather more content. 

ink07 wrote...

A videogame as an interactive entertainment product/service is very different from a book or movie,

So you're saying because its more interactive you don't have the power to just move on to some other game and simply be more careful with Bioware products. 

[Shirosaki17]

This article combined with the ME3 Kinect article, I think shows that they are after a bigger crowd, or "more accessibility." I'd be very wary of DA3. I truly wonder whether the devs are happy with the direction they are going in, or whether the devs think the direction they went in was bad. All evidence so far points to the former.

Modifié par Shirosaki17, 15 juin 2011 - 05:12 .

[devSin]

Why does this guy's opinion even matter? It doesn't to me, and it shouldn't to you.

The man's a suit. He's trying to make bank, not to make games. Let him say what he wants (and ignore him because he's not talking with you but talking past you), and judge the DA team by what they actually say and do in the future.

Yes, Mike Laidlaw sucks with the interviews. It's fair to judge him and the team when he speaks. But don't get worked up over this guy, please.

[Xewaka]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
I know what it's like to work on a really short development cycle. I am a game developer, and have been one for several years. I've done my time on AAA titles too. Game developers, especially AAA budget game developers like Bioware, do not work normal 9-5 jobs, 40 hours a week and go home to count their piles of money, cackling all the way. Game developers, especially AAA budget game developers, often have to crunch for 60-100 hours a week during the last six months to a year or so of game development in order to get the entire thing done on time and sufficiently bug-free that the certification teams at Sony and Microsoft will pass them and allow them to sell the game. During those times, game developers usually don't get to see their families, lose most sense of social life, tend to gain weight (due to eating at the catered overtime buffet and not having any chance to exercise), and generally spend all of their waking hours at the office trying to get the project finished on time.

You guys need a union or a better country to live on. Where I come from, that kind of employee exploitation is a criminal offence.

[Serpieri Nei]

Innovation Really?

So rushing a game, removing customization, recycling environments, lifeless city, hyper active combat, ninja waves, mutated elves/darkspawn, mass effect in dragon age, frame narrative that destroyed any plot cohesion and made DA2 feel more like three short stories. Or was it innovative doing a 180 to a critically acclaimed game instead of building on what made it great? You’ll have to forgive me EA; it seems I can’t stomach your view of innovation.

Now EA/Bioware you have an opportunity to fix the flaws in Dragon Age 2 and no we won’t accept the fixes in DA3 when you have already gotten our money for DA2. Address these issues by actually fixing them by creating an enhanced edition to reward the loyalty of your fans and not some gimmick giveaway of a game we already have. You are no longer trying to make a game worthy of origins but a game that can stand up against titles like the Witcher 2 and the upcoming Skyrim. Unless this is done and we see a returning back to what made Origins great in terms of race/companion/player customization, varying environments, dizzying amount of choices/consequences, tons of dialogue, more companion interaction, and a game that surpasses thirty hours of content. Don’t expect to gain sales, expect to lose even more because you will not be getting the pre-orders or continued business by us fans that clearly doesn’t have EA’s bottom line in our hearts.

And before I forget, as many have already stated in this thread and several others if DAIII continues with Hawke as a protagonist you have already lost my money.

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 15 juin 2011 - 06:53 .

[k177sh0t]

Shirosaki17 wrote...

This article combined with the ME3 Kinect article, I think shows that they are after a bigger crowd, or "more accessibility." I'd be very wary of DA3. .

^This

[Zulmoka531]

k177sh0t wrote...

Shirosaki17 wrote...

This article combined with the ME3 Kinect article, I think shows that they are after a bigger crowd, or "more accessibility." I'd be very wary of DA3. .

^This

For what it's worth I'm becomng wary of ME3 as well.

I've loved these guys since the first time I booted up Baldur's Gate, but my reservations about jumping onto some of their new titles is escalating. Maybe I'm just an old soul in a young world.

[Bio-Age]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Innovation Really?

So rushing a game, removing customization, recycling environments, lifeless city, hyper active combat, ninja waves, mutated elves/darkspawn, mass effect in dragon age, frame narrative that destroyed any plot cohesion and made DA2 feel more like three short stories. Or was it innovative doing a 180 to a critically acclaimed game instead of building on what made it great? You’ll have to forgive me EA; it seems I can’t stomach your view of innovation.

Now EA/Bioware you have an opportunity to fix the flaws in Dragon Age 2 and no we won’t accept the fixes in DA3 when you have already gotten our money for DA2. Address these issues by actually fixing them by creating an enhanced edition to reward the loyalty of your fans and not some gimmick giveaway of a game we already have. You are no longer trying to make a game worthy of origins but a game that can stand up against titles like the Witcher 2 and the upcoming Skyrim. Unless this is done and we see a returning back to what made Origins great in terms of race/companion/player customization, varying environments, dizzying amount of choices/consequences, tons of dialogue, more companion interaction, and a game that surpasses thirty hours of content. Don’t expect to gain sales, expect to lose even more because you will not be getting the pre-orders or continued business by us fans that clearly doesn’t have EA’s bottom line in our hearts.

And before I forget, as many have already stated in this thread and several others if DAIII continues with Hawke as a protagonist you have already lost my money.

Agreed - DA2 is a very mediocre game and if EA/Bioware won't spend any money to fix it – then they better be prepared for even more losses.

Modifié par Bio-Age, 15 juin 2011 - 09:06 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

you know you guys should make out a letter detailing all that is wrong with DA2 and get people to sign it and then send it to bioware because none of them seem to notice that the majority of people dislike DA2

[ElLemur]

Huntress wrote...

"I agree, cue my Stay-out-of-Templar/Mage-Business rogue. I can even imagine Hawke siding with no one, fleeing Kirkwall and the final battle only to be held accountable some months into the future, on the Wounded Coast or somewhere else, creating a totally different final boss fight in that way.

A related issue that I forgot to include in my previous post: What does it take to become a blood mage? Nothing! What consequences does it have? Sweet abilities and... nothing else!
In Origins, at least you had to make a pact with a demon to become a blood mage, do a dragon blood ritual to become a reaver, or just talk to someone who could teach you what needed doing. Isabela's duelist game was one of the best ways of unlocking a specialisation imo, but nothing like this occurs in DA2. It would be sweet if you had to find and unlock specialisations, and that there would perhaps even be multiple opportunities to do so. For instance, you could unlock Shadow by siding with Athenril and Assassin by siding with Meeran, learn Blood Mage from Merrill, Spirit Healer from Anders and Duelist from Isabela, and there would be other chances if you miss out on these.
What isn't in any of the games is consequences. Sure, some people freak out if you unlock the reaver spec, but nobody questions you BEING a reaver or a blood mage. I can imagine great drama between Hawke and Anders on account of choosing either Blood Mage or Templar specs - provided that he ever witnesses any of those abilities in action, of course - or bonus points from Merrill for going Blood or from Isabela for becoming her Duelist apprentice, while she would dislike the sneakiness of the Assassin. Of course, some of these specialisations are more laden (*cough*Blood Mage and Templar*cough*) but it would still be a nice addition that would definitely deepen the RPG experience."

I remember when I started playing DA2 I saw my rogues get Isabela skills, Mages get Anders and warrior learned Fenris.. I haven't see it or notes any more, Do you think is probably because of a mod I have they won't show? hmm I should check that out, I think you get this skills if you had max reputation on this characters.

I am not intersted on any of this builds but, now that you mention it, I should check it out.

Are you talking about the actual Swashbuckler, Vengeance and Tevinter Fugitive ability trees? Or are you talking about the fact that they are very alike to Duelist, Spirit Healer and Reaver, respectively?

[taine]

This interview is nothing but crass PR spin, so it's better ignored. Frankly I'm not loving the direction Bioware is heading, but it does seem that the anger/despair has been exacerbated more by how great they once were than by how far they've fallen.

[Elhanan]

Hated if they do not seem to be listening; Hated when they seem to try. A rose by any other name still has thorns.....

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

ElLemur wrote...

Are you talking about the actual Swashbuckler, Vengeance and Tevinter Fugitive ability trees? Or are you talking about the fact that they are very alike to Duelist, Spirit Healer and Reaver, respectively?

I'd imagine it's about how little people react to important specialisations like Blood Mage (same problem in Origins) and the fact that you don't need to go through plot points to open them up. Needing to go through something in the story to unlock specialisations makes them more, well... special. It's a system in Origins that many people liked (including myself) and the "you can get any specialisation without doing anything" method of Dragon Age 2 upsets some people.

[Marko GW]

I myself don't mind if Lady Hawke is back, loved her... not much fan of the Male Hawke (Garett was it?).

The combat needs a bit tweaking but not going all the way back to the DA:O slow combat.

What I really hate is the recycled maps and lack of meaningful choices.

The companions were OK at best... hated what they did to Anders, liked him in Awakening, but here he was just pathetic, moaning, cry baby... Fenris was a bit boring and pathetic, Merril acts like a child and romancing her makes me feel like a pedophile. Aveline was good character, bit of a nag... and Isabela is great when you "get to know her". Varric is pure awesomeness and I do not use the term loosely, lol.

Bethany is cool want to see more of her... and Carver is a big jackass I have to put out with just because I want to be a mage.

I want to see more of Cassandra, and by more I mean as companion and romance option.

All in all, nothing new... some of these things were said a couple of thousands times here at the forum.

Modifié par Marko GW, 15 juin 2011 - 11:00 .

[Jammet2]

I just read the interview. One moment, BioWare person says that they are trying their best to consider their [old] fans desires and wishes, and change for the better, and then have a sentence later that person says, "Now about Hawke, the protagonist...".

That's ... unfortunate. I love DA because it gave me a full party, but my very own hero. It was so much more "personal". And when my dwarf character sacrificed himself for a better world at the end, it really felt like that meant something. Back then I thought I would sorta have my new lead character be the brother of the dwarf who sacrificed himself, in a possible sequel. Become a hero like it's a family tradition.

And then this Hawke guy got invented. I still got the game, but I was disappointed.

[Meglort]

ROTF LMFAO!!!!

INNOVATION is that REALLY what you think you did with the DA series in DA2 BioWare??

I innovated my eyesight by stabbing both my eyeballs out with a pencil....hahaha....surely you jest.

[alex90c]

I think at this rate, "innovation" is going to become the new "awesome button" in peoples' minds. I predict images of the low-res Kirkwall elves with the caption "INNOVATION - You're doing it wrong" some time down the line.

Modifié par alex90c, 15 juin 2011 - 11:23 .

[culletron1]

LOL These guys are some jokers...

I have become convinced somewhere in an EA compound off the coast of Brazil some evil fiend is sitting on a giant throne made from baby seals, twiddling his moustache, trying to come up with ways to p!ss off bioware fans more and more...

I am currently scared witless that ME3 is going to be so bad it disgraces the memory ME1 and ME2. Like Shep will wake up in Kirkwall realizing it was all a dream or something...

No doubt after that he will set about ruining the memories of BG and kotor...

He knows it will wreck profits and bankrupt them in a very competitive gaming industry... but he doesn't care... Our displeasure is what he feeds on.

[Forsakerr]

it looks to me that those suits don't see on the long run but only immediate profit like DA2 to get out before April so they looked good in the books but it totally goes over their head that it destroys their reputation or credibility even more , i don't buy EA games anymore because of their horrible view on their customers in like release a bugged as hell game and release expansions instead of fixing them or takes for ever to do so and i'm not talking about killing studios and milking franchises ,they played the cool guys when they bought Bioware and said they learned from their mistakes and would let studios make games but it did not last long , the only games i was still buying was because of Bioware and with the look of it i will now hesitate if the trend continues