738 réponses à ce sujet

[Bejos_]

For me, it wasn't the game that spoiled Bioware for me-- it was the way that Bioware acted throughout the game's development, marketing and reception.

When a company

-lies ("Don't worry, guys-- the consoles will have auto-attack." "Oops!" *wink*),
-denies ("You just don't understand our genius!"),
-propagandises ("Those are 4chan trolls!" "Stop being a self-entitled b****, princess!"), and
-exploits ("The game is bad because we were rushed. You can fix that! Buy our Day 1 DLC!")

I have no problem in distancing myself from them. I've bought 3 Bioware games. They will not see another cent from me ever again.

People paid them $60 for a buggy, shoddy, rushed, half of a game. Instead of being ashamed, Bioware feels it is "entitled" to treat those customers like **** throughout the entire process.

Stay classy, Bioware.

(No, this is not EA's fault.)

[alex90c]

Can someone actually link me to the videos/websites/whatever where Bioware bashed Origins? I'd love to see it, lol.

[alex90c]

DOUBLE POST

Modifié par alex90c, 14 juin 2011 - 02:45 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

What would be nice is if, like Alpha Protocol, they had been able to integrate more choice and power into the narrative while keeping the same personality tracking system.

I just don't think it's a good idea to offer a clear choice, then disregard it completely. Especially when it's central to the narrative. It runs counter to what RPGs should strive for imo - the ability to roleplay a character of your choosing in a well crafted narrative and setting that responds to and rewards your choices appropriately, whether it is in character, narrative, playstyle, etc.

Now, some people can argue that Dragon Age 2 is just esoteric and that it's lack of choice was commentary on the inherent helpless nature of our champion. But I find that a complete and utter cop out. Ranks up there with the ninja waves being a result of Varric's unreliable narration. In other words - BS.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 14 juin 2011 - 02:52 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

But Sarah, click heart for teh sexytiem.

Not saying you couldn't abuse Origins' gift system, but c'mon! You call this an improvement?

Oh well thats totally different! That heart icon prompt makes it so much less a guessing game! heh

How wrong was I! So improved over Origins!  /sarcasm

[Stardusk78]

Merllle wrote...

I'm not sure if a thread about this have been started yet, but I couldn't find it with a quick search. If yes, my apologies.

I want to start this thread by saying that I've been a hardcore fangirl of BioWare since my teenager years of Baldur's Gate and yes, I am also aware that many whining posts have been started in the very same way. But I think what I have to say has some importance since it's a direct response to an article published in BioWare/EA's name.

Very recently, this article has been published.

Something that baffled me about this was this particular quote:

"But to be honest, we lost some fans as well. They were not pleased with
some of the innovations and things we'd done. We understand that and
we're listening."

Fans were not pleased with your innovations? Are you remotely serious? I think the problem with DA2 was very, very far from it's "innovations".

Let me give a quick recap on my personal opinion of the game.
I have mixed feelings about DA2. While I adored the characters and the storytelling (the writing team didn't disappoint a bit, once more), I see the game as the clear rush job it were. And we all must be sick and tired of reading about it. It's preety obvious to me that the whole narrative and concept of the game was built upon the concept that it had to be a game done in a short ammount of time. Why only a city and a few looped scenarios? Why come up with the wonderful concept of a story that advanced through time and spanned over almost 10 years if such realization would mostly by noticed in relationships and subtle details? I want to give my sincere kudos to the team who came up with the solutions to the time problem in the concept of the game itself - it was ingenious and proved for a hearty challenge. Kudos for the team to have developed the game in such a short time span But it still wasn't enough.

I am wholy convinced that if Dragon Age 2 had one or two extra years of development, it could have been one of the greatest games of all time. KotOR2 syndrome.

And now someone comes telling that fans were not pleased with the "innovations". What innovations do you mean? The innovations you came up with as fitting for the lack of time the team had for developing the game? Some of them were actually preety cool and brought innovation to BioWare games. I loved the framed narrative, for instance. But you must realize that those things were well loved. The problem, in my eyes, was the general lack of development time, which is well noticed all throughout the game.

It's preferable to take your time with the games you make and give them the quality they deserve. This has always been a characteristic of BioWare since I know them and I am very sad to see it being washed away. Scoring a sequel ASAP is a very big mistake quality wise and Dragon Age 2 could have been a thousand times better and yet, it wasn't. You claim you listen to your fans: now's the time to prove it.

I am sorry if I entered the whambulance, but serious criticism is something that must be heard, from people who care. Please reconsider your line of action.

From a fan.

Your written English is excellent.

[Cutlass Jack]

alex90c wrote...

Can someone actually link me to the videos/websites/whatever where Bioware bashed Origins? I'd love to see it, lol.

I've asked this a few times in the past without success. The closest I got was some lines taken horribly out of context and misinterpreted in the worst way possible.

[Oopsieoops]

mrcrusty wrote...

What would be nice is if, like Alpha Protocol, they had been able to integrate more choice and power into the narrative while keeping the same personality tracking system.

I just don't think it's a good idea to offer a clear choice, then disregard it completely. Especially when it's central to the narrative. It runs counter to what RPGs should strive for imo - the ability to roleplay a character of your choosing in a well crafted narrative and setting that responds to and rewards your choices appropriately, whether it is in character, narrative, playstyle, etc.

JE Sawyer often talks about that, and I agree with him completely. If you're going to give the players a choice, then do it, don't simply give them several options with the same outcome.

EDIT: I just found a nice quote from him that applies here:

So, you consider a game an RPG if it lets you define your pc's personality in a way that "significantly alters the story". There must be very few games you call RPGs then, since most only offer the illusion of choice and the story stays the same.


Yes, not that many. I think that offering the illusion of choice is bad for any game. I'm fine with being put on rails in games. Please just don't give me ten ways to be redirected into the same outcome.To be clearer, I think it's fine if RPGs plot lines wind up in a similar place. But many RPG plot lines are made up of a lot of little relationships, small quests, and character conflicts that you can resolve as you see fit. That is what I think is interesting and find rewarding.

Modifié par Oopsieoops, 14 juin 2011 - 02:54 .

[OdanUrr]

Well, for me it wasn't the innovations that were the deal-breaker, in fact, I kinda like the faster combat sequences and revamped abilities screen, though reduced party inventory control wasn't very nice. No, if I had to break it down to one or two things, I'd say it was the story, or lack thereof, and the thoroughly poor and unconvincing locations.

[AngryFrozenWater]

mrcrusty wrote...

What would be nice is if, like Alpha Protocol, they had been able to integrate more choice and power into the narrative while keeping the same personality tracking system.

I just don't think it's a good idea to offer a clear choice, then disregard it completely. Especially when it's central to the narrative. It runs counter to what RPGs should strive for imo - the ability to roleplay a character of your choosing in a well crafted narrative and setting that responds to and rewards your choices appropriately, whether it is in character, narrative, playstyle, etc.

Now, some people can argue that Dragon Age 2 is just esoteric and that it's lack of choice was commentary on the inherent helpless nature of our champion. But I find that a complete and utter cop out. Ranks up there with the ninja waves being a result of Varric's unreliable narration. In other words - BS.

Besides that... The band (Mr Laidlaw & the Marketing) played another tune.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 14 juin 2011 - 02:53 .

[Persephone]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Persephone wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Persephone wrote...

alex90c wrote...

You've got to be joking. Players had far more opportunities to create unique wardens than Hawkes. Hawke can go three ways (diplomatic, sarcastic and aggressive) but with your warden you're not forced down those three paths.

I'm not forced down anything in either game. (Personality wise) My Wardens are mostly mute, uninvolved pixels. (Except my Canon Warden) I connect more to my Hawkes than to any of my Wardens. End of story.

That people need a voice actor to connect to their character is sad. So much for imagination and actually role playing these days.

It's not just that. I connected to my Children of Bhaal just fine. I've also played RPGs where there is little to no VO acting (I. E. Might & Magic VI) and loved them. I do not connect half as much to my Shepard. With Hawke it just clicked emotionally.

The difference with DA2 being your choices don't really matter. The game, the narrative, is completely predetermined in a way that no matter what you choose its always going to play out pretty much the same way.

Yay I can be friendly, sarcastic, or mean Hawke. Like it supposidly matters at all in the end. Oh and hey I can guess at dialog too because the paraphrase system still sucks ass.

But Sarah, click heart for teh sexytiem.

Sure, because that was SO what I was referring to. Thanks for insulting my intelligence like that. <_<

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Ali & Sarah:

*puts flame shield up*

While I disagree with parts of it's implementation, the concept of F/R over A/D is imo, a good one. A particular improvement in DA 2 is how gifts are handled. Emoticons to compensate for bad paraphrasing / "text is teh hard medidum for cunveying intent" aside, I don't see how you can argue that abusing and metagaming the old system is better than what we got in DA 2.

@Oopsieoops:

Sawyer is the freaking man. There's an article from 2002 on RPGCodex which outlines his opinions on RPG design. If you read his stuff today and look at New Vegas, you'll find how little he's changed.

Rock solid he is, a true bro.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 14 juin 2011 - 02:54 .

[ItsTheTruth]

Old fans are too stupid to understand the dumb story of DA2, or appreciate the brainless combat and waves falling from the sky.

But good news: Hawke will be back, WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT!

[Perles75]

Come on guys, read between the lines! A company can NEVER say explicitly "we sucked", they have to use a different communication style than people in forums. This is why they speak about bad reception of "innovation" and such.
For me it's crystal clear that the message is "don't worry, we're going to change many things, you won't get a new DA2".


P.S.: I like my Hawke! I think they made a cool character, the problem is they didn't give him an equally interesting story around.

P.P.S.: frankly, the rivalry system was WAY more absurd in DAO, where you didn't have friendship/rivalry but plain love/hate. I'm not entirely happy with the friendship/rivalry system but it's a great improvement.

[tmp7704]

Merllle wrote...

Fans were not pleased with your innovations? Are you remotely serious? I think the problem with DA2 was very, very far from it's "innovations".

Please note, that quote actually reads

"They were not pleased with some of the innovations and things we'd done. We understand that and
we're listening."

In other words it's not just the "innovations" although that was part of the problems people had with the game. But there was also issues which weren't "innovations" at all, and they recognize those, too.

[Persephone]

ItsTheTruth wrote...

Old fans are too stupid to understand the dumb story of DA2, or appreciate the brainless combat and waves falling from the sky.

But good news: Hawke will be back, WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT!

I don't think anyone said ANYTHING of the kind.

The only one stooping so low is....you.

(And I've been an RPG fan for almost 20 years)

[Herr Uhl]

mrcrusty wrote...

While I disagree with parts of it's implementation, the concept of F/R over A/D is imo, a good one. A particular improvement in DA 2 is how gifts are handled. Emoticons to compensate for bad paraphrasing / "text is teh hard medidum for cunveying intent" aside, I don't see how you can argue that abusing and metagaming the old system is better than what we got in DA 2.

I'd prefer it if there was better paraprasing too. Or better yet, a way to view the whole line (I didn't notice any lines that had other characters pipe in in between to make it meta-game enough to make it necessary to have it paraphrase only).

Cutlass Jack wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Can someone actually link me to the videos/websites/whatever where Bioware bashed Origins? I'd love to see it, lol.

I've asked this a few times in the past without success. The closest I got was some lines taken horribly out of context and misinterpreted in the worst way possible.

Internets.

[FJVP]

alex90c wrote...

Can someone actually link me to the videos/websites/whatever where Bioware bashed Origins? I'd love to see it, lol.

Click

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

mrcrusty wrote...

Ali & Sarah:

*puts flame shield up*

While I disagree with parts of it's implementation, the concept of F/R over A/D is imo, a good one. A particular improvement in DA 2 is how gifts are handled. Emoticons to compensate for bad paraphrasing / "text is teh hard medidum for cunveying intent" aside, I don't see how you can argue that abusing and metagaming the old system is better than what we got in DA 2.

All they needed to do was spell out the actual line of dialog that was to be spoken. It's not rocket science, the DuesEx reboot does this. Why is it so Taboo in Bioware's eyes?

Course then you bring the whole bs marketing thatt your choices matter and define your champion. Which turned out to be the biggest line of bull**** I've ever seen out of Bioware. And I LIKE Bioware titles. 

Like a few have mentioned already, the game feels half baked, it needed a good 6 months more of polish rather than trying to shoehorn a new artstyle, combat mechanics. narrative style, voice overs, and stripping out half the customization to cash in in 18 months on the sucess of Origins.

[Monica83]

FJVP wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Can someone actually link me to the videos/websites/whatever where Bioware bashed Origins? I'd love to see it, lol.

Click

Lol how many lies!

[KnightofPhoenix]

I am not sure if I should be happy that they admit it, or if I should be displeased because they still can't seem to understand that it was much more than the concepts and "innovations", but rather the poor execution, that made DA2 the mediocre game that I felt it is.

[Xewaka]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
All they needed to do was spell out the actual line of dialog that was to be spoken. It's not rocket science, the DuesEx reboot does this. Why is it so Taboo in Bioware's eyes?

Official reason: "People would skip our awesome voiced character. We can't allow it!"
Yes, it's as dumb as it sounds.
And I still skip the VO anyway because reading subtitles is faster and they won't dub in Spanish.

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Course then you bring the whole bs marketing thatt your choices matter and define your champion. Which turned out to be the biggest line of bull**** I've ever seen out of Bioware. And I LIKE Bioware titles.

Each and every game with a hint or RPG will say your choices matter in the marketing drive.
Marketing always lies. 

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Like a few have mentioned already, the game feels half baked, it needed a good 6 months more of polish rather than trying to shoehorn a new artstyle, combat mechanics. narrative style, voice overs, and stripping out half the customization to cash in in 18 months on the sucess of Origins.

And even then, it failed to chas in properly, if the sales charts available in the internet are any indication.