It may be too late for such things but I would like to see some reward or rewards for doing things the hard way or enduring some difficult event. I'm going to draw upon another Bioware game for an example.
In Jade Empire you're given the chance to cheat in the arena and have them poison Crimzon Khana. If you do this you get an easy fight and even get a deal from Iron Soldier later. However, if you refuse you're punished by having to fight Crimzon Khana at her best and Iron Soldier isn't willing to deal with you later. In return though you get to learn one of the best weapon's techniques in the game and I would say the best weapon's technique if you warned Khana about the attempt on her life.
I'd like to see some similar situations in Mass Effect 3 in which you get a nice bonus if you do things the difficult way. Now the problem with Jade Empire is that it was tied to the open palm or closed fist paths in that if you wanted to be closed fist you gave up on this resource and given how powerful the technique was closed fist was punished to an extent. Instead of making it a paragon gets rewarded for doing things the hard honest way and renegade gets punished for doing things the easy way perhaps Paragon or Renegade could both benefit but they're acting on different reasons.
In the above example, Paraon because cheating and poisoning someone is unethical while renegade is because they don't need anyone's help to break another person in half.
Another bit of fun I would like to see is similar to the last stand battle in the DLC arrival. Perhaps you could have Shepeard in a defensive situation and you need to hold the position while your allies fall back. Now one of four things could happen.
1. You fail and well this means you died so you're going to have to reload from a previous save.
2. You hold the line but not long enough for everyone to escape thus you lose some civilians.
3. You hold the line long enough that everyone escapes and you get to retreat knowing you did good.
4. Who's running? You hold the line until the enemy breaks against you. Perhaps this could indluce a special boss at the end who's death results in you getting a nice something.
Now once again Paragon and Renegade could have their reasons for holding the line but still hold the line. Paragon because they won't risk the enemy escaping only to hurt someone else and Renegade because they aren't running from anyone.
I'm quite a fan of any chance my characters are given to over achieve.
Punishment and reward
Débuté par
Inprea
, juin 14 2011 07:25
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#2
Posté 14 juin 2011 - 07:34
Nashiktal
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The Jade Empire thing isn't punish and reward considering you are rewarded either way.
Punish and Reward would be a system that trains the player to do things a certain way. Like if the player is punished for talking to people by losing money or experience (bear with me, its just an example) the player would likely stop talking to people since they are punished for doing so.
The result would be that the player would instead do the alternative instead (which is fighting) instead, effectively defeating the point of having alternative paths. Especially in your example, since many players would simply reload a save to get the best outcome. (The same thing happened quite often with the suicide mission)
What you want is to make every path viable, and provide some sort of unique reward or situation no matter the outcome, so that the player doesn't feel punished for what they chose. (Mass Effect just doesn't lend itself well to a punishing style of gameplay)
Punish and Reward would be a system that trains the player to do things a certain way. Like if the player is punished for talking to people by losing money or experience (bear with me, its just an example) the player would likely stop talking to people since they are punished for doing so.
The result would be that the player would instead do the alternative instead (which is fighting) instead, effectively defeating the point of having alternative paths. Especially in your example, since many players would simply reload a save to get the best outcome. (The same thing happened quite often with the suicide mission)
What you want is to make every path viable, and provide some sort of unique reward or situation no matter the outcome, so that the player doesn't feel punished for what they chose. (Mass Effect just doesn't lend itself well to a punishing style of gameplay)
#3
Posté 14 juin 2011 - 07:59
Destroy Raiden_
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I like your idea on holding the line and depending on how well you hold said line and mount a defense is how shep is or isn't rewarded.
#4
Posté 14 juin 2011 - 08:09
Inprea
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Destroy Raiden wrote...
I like your idea on holding the line and depending on how well you hold said line and mount a defense is how shep is or isn't rewarded.
Thanks, though it isn't my idea as much as I wish it was. It's just a feature I've flat out loved in some previous games. Being permitted to have different levels of success based in part on how good and how stubborn you are is just wonderful from my view point.
Plus I think everyone loves the feeling they get when you get to beat people's expectations. Now they'd just need to make sure that holding the line was difficult enough to be worthy of a reward.
#6
Posté 14 juin 2011 - 08:39
SalsaDMA
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I would prefer that npcs and squadmembers had their own ethos about how things were supposed to be done, and depending on how much you deviate from their etho, they treat you differently.
No, I'm not talking about a loyalty meter like from DA:O. I'm talking about a sliding scale of attitudes and reactions from squadmates and npcs towards Shepard depending on how he/she behaves as a person.
Ie. Say we put Garrus somewhere on the renegade side of ethos. The more paragon you become, the more he will start to question you and your actions in wether or not you are serious enough about dealing with the situation, or have the 'guts' to take (what he feels) are the necessary renegade actions to be able to cope with the situations.
No, I'm not talking about a loyalty meter like from DA:O. I'm talking about a sliding scale of attitudes and reactions from squadmates and npcs towards Shepard depending on how he/she behaves as a person.
Ie. Say we put Garrus somewhere on the renegade side of ethos. The more paragon you become, the more he will start to question you and your actions in wether or not you are serious enough about dealing with the situation, or have the 'guts' to take (what he feels) are the necessary renegade actions to be able to cope with the situations.
#7
Posté 14 juin 2011 - 08:40
Kabanya101
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Jade Empire's morality system is completely different from Mass Effect.
OP-
Help everyone in need / protect the weak
CF-
1) Don't help them, not because they're weak, but because to make them stronger
2) Don't help because you don't need to and they're weak
Mass Effect
Para-
Helping people in need, or sacificing for those needed (Good cop)
Ren-
Using force to get what you want, and help people for the cost of money or bloodlust (Bad cop)
Jade Empire had punishments for those who were renegades, because you had to kill and fight not only enemies, but the people around you. In ME, there are no pros or cons, it just changes how you get things done. Such as getting a discount, you can either threaten and beat the clerk, or flirt and ask nicely. They both get the same outcome, just a different way of doing it. Jade Empire has different paths for those who go paragon or renegade.
OP-
Help everyone in need / protect the weak
CF-
1) Don't help them, not because they're weak, but because to make them stronger
2) Don't help because you don't need to and they're weak
Mass Effect
Para-
Helping people in need, or sacificing for those needed (Good cop)
Ren-
Using force to get what you want, and help people for the cost of money or bloodlust (Bad cop)
Jade Empire had punishments for those who were renegades, because you had to kill and fight not only enemies, but the people around you. In ME, there are no pros or cons, it just changes how you get things done. Such as getting a discount, you can either threaten and beat the clerk, or flirt and ask nicely. They both get the same outcome, just a different way of doing it. Jade Empire has different paths for those who go paragon or renegade.
#8
Posté 14 juin 2011 - 08:41
Warkupo
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That would make every character as confusing and rigid as Samara and her code which says she has to murder a Renegade Shepard just because he's being a Renegade. No thanks.
#9
Posté 14 juin 2011 - 09:04
SalsaDMA
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Warkupo wrote...
That would make every character as confusing and rigid as Samara and her code which says she has to murder a Renegade Shepard just because he's being a Renegade. No thanks.
That's actually not what she said.
She said that if Shepard did dishonorable things that were against her code, she would have to deal with it afterwards. At least that was what she said to my renegade Shepard. I don't see any of the renegade actions My shepard did as being any worse than what Samara herself did in her own pursuit of justice, so on that level they were totally the same. Renegade, by itself, would not cause her to want to kill Shepard.
If anything, Samara is not rigid in this aspect (or at least she shouldn't be unless the writers mess up). I don't really see why you think reactive behaviour based on personality is rigid. It's the exact opposite, tbh.
#10
Posté 14 juin 2011 - 10:15
Alamar2078
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To a degree I believe that multiple different paths should give you different but reasonable "rewards". On the other hand I believe it would ruin immersion if every choice you make [no matter how badly you're trying to mess up] results in butterflies & unicorns.
In the end some things you do should bite you. I mostly play as a Paragon player but I think letting Elmora go in ME2 and Ranna Thiaoptis (sp???) go in multiple games is going to bite paragons in either hard or unexpected ways. Sometimes something simply doesn't work out. If you RP you just stick with the suboptimal result and keep on going.
In the end some things you do should bite you. I mostly play as a Paragon player but I think letting Elmora go in ME2 and Ranna Thiaoptis (sp???) go in multiple games is going to bite paragons in either hard or unexpected ways. Sometimes something simply doesn't work out. If you RP you just stick with the suboptimal result and keep on going.
