66 réponses à ce sujet

[Dannyboy9876]

This would be interesting, but how much would it really change?

[Admoniter]

I do agree most major decisions can be made on one side of the spectrum with a mindset that is the complete opposite.

[Medhia Nox]

I know people are very "goal" oriented... but I ignore the games morality. It's true that I will usually fall into the "good" or "Paragon" choices - that's just who I am and what I prefer.

But I've made Renegade choices based on how I felt at the moment regardless of the "bar". It would be a lie if I said I didn't check every so often to see where I sat on the scale - but it still wouldn't alter my choices.

Anyway - all RPGs will judge your actions, that's part of what an RPG is. Even if it's "What does another NPC think about this?"

People get all touchy about the "name" something is given - as if the name itself holds some inherent value. ((And since most people perceive themselves as 'good' even though they're probably not - the term 'good' becomes so polluted as to become meaningless))

Perhaps - even "Liked" and "Disliked" would be bad... .cause who wants to be "Disliked"?

SO - I suggest. "One Way" or "The Other" as Bioware's next two value judgments.

[Manic Sheep]

I agree with what you are saying. Mordins loyalty mission had 4 options even tho there are really only 2 outcomes, you either kept the research or destroyed I appreciate that and it made a huge difference. Same with the save/abandon the council decision, I am very glad the middle option was there. They need to do this more often.
I also think they should untie paragon and renegade form speech skills or at least change the system so it doesn’t snowball and give you points less often. Some of the places you got points in ME2 just seemed kind of random.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 14 juin 2011 - 11:07 .

[Xeranx]

PiercedMonk wrote...

The Paragon/Renegade system is not about personal morality but rather how othrs would perceive your actions.I think of it in terms of an outside observer watching Shepard, and thinking, "He seems like a pretty decent dude," or, "Wow, what a dick," completely divorced from whatever rationale you might have had for your actions.

Which is why you're able to use your Paragon or Renegade status to influence others. The extra dialogue options are a reflection of how Shepard is percieved. It's reputation, not rational. Shepard's willig to sucker punch an unarmed woman because s/he doesn't like the questions being asked? People are probably going to tread lightly lest they end up getting shot in the face. Word gets around that Shepard was willing to put his own life at risk by only knocking out and not killing any of the colonists under the thorian's control? That earns respect, and people are going to be more willing to listen to what s/he has to say.

It's not a perfect system, but it's better than a lot of morality systems out there.

Then that should involve a reputation meter, which the P/R system is often called, but in actuality isn't or at least doesn't work very hard to be what the developers claim it is.  It comes across as "your Shepard isn't skilled enough to use that line or that stance".  

[SpEcIaLRyAn21]

The main thing to keep in mind is that renegade isn't evil. Paragon doesn't make you good either. An example would be a Renegade would kill a violent criminal to end his reign of terror. A Paragon would have him arrested and put on trial. Both options are good in a way. Also just because you pick a renegade option doesn't mean your character is gonna go rouge. If you kill the council to save more lives than whats to say thats not paragon. Its all about how you perceive the events. The points system is just there to reward for a decision you make. Like others have said you can think of a lot of renegade reasons for a paragon choice. P/R is a moral gray area. I for one have no problem with the system. I only have a problem if it starts to go Fables route and gives black and white choices that don't make us think for a second depending on the character we make.

[Manic Sheep]

SpEcIaLRyAn21 wrote...

The main thing to keep in mind is that renegade isn't evil. Paragon doesn't make you good either. An example would be a Renegade would kill a violent criminal to end his reign of terror. A Paragon would have him arrested and put on trial. Both options are good in a way. Also just because you pick a renegade option doesn't mean your character is gonna go rouge. If you kill the council to save more lives than whats to say thats not paragon. Its all about how you perceive the events. The points system is just there to reward for a decision you make. Like others have said you can think of a lot of renegade reasons for a paragon choice. P/R is a moral gray area. I for one have no problem with the system. I only have a problem if it starts to go Fables route and gives black and white choices that don't make us think for a second depending on the character we make.

but if they are only giving you 2 options it means if you are mixing and matching or making decisions for reason other than what they put on each choice your character will say the wrong reasoning. Tho that will always happen because they can’t give you an option for every line of reasoning but 4 instead of 2 options would help allot. Since paragon and renegade are a whole bunch of traits lumped together when you have a generally paragon character who makes a renegade decision they adopt the renegade way speaking and attitude as well. It makes your character seem bipolar or somthing and you lose out on being able to pull off charm/intimidate.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 14 juin 2011 - 11:27 .

[onelifecrisis]

I totally approve of this thread!

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 15 juin 2011 - 02:51 .

[mornegroth]

I sincerely hope Bioware drops the Paragon/Renegade System in future Mass Effect games after this one (oh yes, they shall arrive).

[nitrog100]

Some of the decisions are pretty much grey area. The system works for me for the most part. I was kind of confused as to what to do with the heretic Geth though. Their choice to follow the Reapers was based on a mathematical error, so it's difficult for any organic to know what to do. It seems like both sides could learn from their experiences, so I decided that rewriting them was the right thing to do.

[Paxos]

Is the paragon/renegade system about good and bad? I don't think so, it seems to be just a localization in scale of thinking, with paragon more encompassing and renegade more immediate. Considering that the majority of the big decisions in the game have to be made on a large scale it makes sense that a paragon would have more of an effect at that scale, with renegades being focused on immediate and individual needs and wants it makes more sense that renegade choices have more of an effect from a personal gratification point of view.

As ME is a game that's on "rails" and needs to head in a certain direction, I think it's a pretty fair system, it handles generality but it does promote thought; if I was a teenager playing this game I'd have a lot to gain.

[mcsupersport]

I just mod my game to give myself a 1000pt of each and then play my characters like I want, and enjoy the game. I hope they do away with Para/rene points effecting your dialog. IT limits your actions too much, and causes problems, which is the reason I use my workaround.

[Xeranx]

mcsupersport wrote...

I just mod my game to give myself a 1000pt of each and then play my characters like I want, and enjoy the game. I hope they do away with Para/rene points effecting your dialog. IT limits your actions too much, and causes problems, which is the reason I use my workaround.

Same.

[Valmarn]

Mesina2 wrote...

Is to label them as Paragon and Renegade.


Most famous example is Legion's LM.

In game Paragon response is kinda like: I can't commit genocide. It's best to just reprogram them not to worship Reapers.
While Renegade: That's a heavy risk to reprogram them. What if they revert it? Destroy them!


But same choice can have reverted reasons.

Paragon: If I reprogram them I'm destroying them anyway. We should blow them up. I wouldn't want to someone brainwash me. I would rather get bullet to the head.
Renegade: HA! I'll use Reaper lackeys against them! Bring on the virus Legion!



See what I did there?

This I can do with the Council.

Paragon: We must save the Council at all costs! They are valuable to aliens.
Renegade: Risk the fleet to save Council and lose it against Sovereign? Not happening!

or

Paragon: We can't risk the fleet for the Council. Too many lives are at the stake.
Renegade: Roll in the fleet to save the Council! Those bastards will be grateful for that!



Now this isn't some new news but still, it's not discussed much.
And this is big problem in both game and community( Punishing Paragons thread for example).

I mean, this can be fixed easily.

Here are 3 ways:

1. Give us 4 dialogue choices for 2 actual choices.

On left you have destroy the Geth Heretics, up is Paragon and down is Renegade response.
On right you have reprogram the Geth Heretics, up is Paragon and down is Renegade response.

2. Give us 2 choices like before but then you get to say why. Then you get additional 2 responses after that, Paragon and Renegade one.

3. Give us 2 choices, but after the mission we explain to character why we did it. Paragon or Renegade.

So can this work out in ME3?
No longer to be specifically Paragon on Renegade do to main choices are like that?

That's a very concise and convincing argument. It's just too bad that they didn't do things that way.

I was about to say that it's too bad that such an idea was never brought forward before, but the truth is, we don't know that it wasn't. They, very well, could have considered implementing such dialog options, but decided not to because of the additional time they would have needed the voice actors in the studio. Mind you, it wouldn't have been only Jennifer Hale and Mark Meer, since they would need the responses of all of the squadmates, as well.

No doubt, the additional time they would have needed the VA's in the studio would have been negligible, but it's just a possibility that I'm throwing out there.

[Aimi]

I would have thought that it's obvious that Paragon and Renegade are instruments for metagaming instead of actual positions on morality that make roleplaying more viable. Maybe it's a peculiarity about the way I play?

[The Spamming Troll]

i wish paragon and renegade was removed completely. the story unfolds either paragon or renegade, theres never the option to throw a joke out there or make a snarky comment, its always "ill save the planet!" or "ill destroy the planet!"

i dont like ME2s evaluation of building reputation through P/R. id rather have one bar that resembles something like FAME. whether i completed the mission as a paragon or as a renegade shouldnt matter, its the fact that i completed that mission. its more like a "respect" bar that outsiders see shepard as instead of "OMG, its the devil. RUN!!!" or "here, have these stimpacks."

[HunterX6]

I disagree too, I like it the way bioware made it.

[Raiil]

I dislike the paragon/renegade system, mostly because it doesn't make sense half of the time. One, playing as a renegon myself, the choices don't always make sense: why can you blather about how it's unethical to rewrite the heretic geth as a paragon choice continuously during 'A House Divided', only for the paragon option to be rewriting them? Plus we're never allowed to voice, during the Big Decision, exactly why we're choosing it half of the time. I destroy the geth because I find brainwashing to be so perverse and unethical that killing them all quickly is the humane option, not because it might stop the fight right then and there.

Alternatively, during Jacob's loyalty quest, the 'neutral' option looks like it should be the renegade option; you let Ronald suffer while you jet off into the sunset, whereas the renegade option gives him a quick out. Wha-?

[zeoduos]

I like the OP's ideas. It adds more variety to the kinds of Shepards we can create and it would allow for more player immersion because not everything is black and white.

However, the Mass Effect story needs to maintain some sort of structure or else it will be utter chaos.

[Saaziel]

I'll throw in my 2 credits in,

The problem isn't the choices offered and how they're catalogued more than people identifying with a Bar or an other. I have no idea why but people are obsessed with bars , its compulsory to max them out (regardless of how its done) and associate oneself to whatever it is that it represent (If anything).

I like the idea , but it wouldn't stop the Para/Ren debate.

Modifié par Saaziel, 15 juin 2011 - 03:58 .

[kyg_20X6]

I preferred the friend/rival mechanic in DA2. I felt less pressured to go a certain route (probably because it doesn't tell you what effect each statement will have on friend/rival). So I'd just play and see how things fell. Once I got a gauge on people's characters I might choose to take, or not take, them to certain places depending on their personalities.

That being said I'd still prefer no alignment system. It works ok for Star Wars, because the whole universe is split that way, but outside of that it breaks down. And it's been problematic since KOTOR2 (which I know wasn't BW, but everything since then has been).

[SkittlesKat96]

Mesina2 wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

the legion example is entertaining because it contradicts who legion had to say about the collectors

what's the difference between rewriting the geth and rewriting the protheans?

for moments like these there should be no blue/red option, just make it all white without any paragon/renegade + score

wut?

He's talking about Legions dialog about the Protheans in-game *sigh* 
Also I agree with this, and the solutions are good, hope they do this with future titles (ideally ME 3 as well but I doubt they have changed it otherwise they probably would have told us by now)

Modifié par SkittlesKat96, 15 juin 2011 - 04:57 .

[Vena_86]

Once again, the whole Paragon/Renegade idea was flawed from the start or atleast the way it was implemented. What makes it worse is if you try to play a Renegade character and for instance save the rachni queen with the only motivation beeing to use her against the reapers you get a huge load of paragon points instead.