66 réponses à ce sujet

[Warkupo]

Once again, Paragon will often choose the option that saves lives, negotiates, and is gentle. Renegade will pick the option that kills things, threatens, and is is tough. Paragon options tend to be 'good' when a good vs evil choice is presented, but this is not always the case.

My biggest problem is with Renegade responses; You can never be sure if you're going to get a 'tough love', 'on your feet, soldier!' type of Shepard or a 'kill your family, kick the dog, burn down your village, and then take a whizz on their graves of your ancestors' type of Shepard. It's sometimes difficult to gauge just HOW bad of a mood Shepard is in that day.

[Shotokanguy]

Paragon and Renegade are specific things, and neither of the examples in the first post go against them:

Paragon is all about never doing things the easy way. Save as many lives as possible, in the long run. Be compassionate and helpful to everyone. Rewriting the geth gives them another chance to live.

Renegade is about doing whatever you have to to save the galaxy. Nothing else matters. Destroying the geth is simply safer, overall.

[CroGamer002]

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

the legion example is entertaining because it contradicts who legion had to say about the collectors

what's the difference between rewriting the geth and rewriting the protheans?

for moments like these there should be no blue/red option, just make it all white without any paragon/renegade + score

wut?

He's talking about Legions dialog about the Protheans in-game *sigh* 
Also I agree with this, and the solutions are good, hope they do this with future titles (ideally ME 3 as well but I doubt they have changed it otherwise they probably would have told us by now)

Legion talked about Protheans?!

How did I missed that?!

[tjzsf]

Separating the bars was good, because it meant that if you wanted to roleplay, and your beliefs didn't match exactly what Bioware thought paragon/renegade meant, taking the non-alignment choice didn't hurt your ability to charm/intimidate.

Tying charm/intimidate to the bar, on the other hand, wrecked this, as any time you had a choice you are now incentivized to pick the alignment choice so as not to wreck your ability to charm/intimidate your way through the big dicisions.

ME1 had a good system going, the only thing that needed to be tweeked was more neutral options that split points for both meters and better thought-out renegade (lower right) responses that involve mroe "tough love" and less "be a dick"

[Clonedzero]

the paragon and renegade system is a pretty dumb one to be perfectly honest.

each choice should be made on its own. having a paragon/renegade system just adds to metagaming and not making those choices any more significant.

if there wasnt the obvious "paragon and renegade indicators" choices would be alot more important and hard to make.

[Clonedzero]

also, i'd like to add that the legion loyalty mission is MESSED up in the paragon path.

i remember recently intending to do it the reprograming way and i brought garrus along this time cus, uh he's garrus and he said "isnt reprogramming them dangerously close to indoctrination? what makes us different than the reapers then?" (or something like that paraphrasing, but he compared it directly to indoctrination)

and i was like "god damn garrus you damn genius you're right!"

its kinda worse to forcefully brainwash them then to just kill them.

[Sekhem]

Of course, then there's the situations the game railroads you in to with NO real valid option for one or the other - the most egregious example of this I can think of is Arrival. Even if all through ME1 and 2 you've played Shep as the do-gooder, "all life is sacred", will do anything to save a life type ... once you start that mission, you HAVE to slaughter hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians. Oh, but you can send out a message warning them that they're all going to die, so their last moments are ones of sheer terror, and THAT'S the 'paragon' option? o_O

[Nashiktal]

Clonedzero wrote...

also, i'd like to add that the legion loyalty mission is MESSED up in the paragon path.

i remember recently intending to do it the reprograming way and i brought garrus along this time cus, uh he's garrus and he said "isnt reprogramming them dangerously close to indoctrination? what makes us different than the reapers then?" (or something like that paraphrasing, but he compared it directly to indoctrination)

and i was like "god damn garrus you damn genius you're right!"

its kinda worse to forcefully brainwash them then to just kill them.

Is it? They are just machines, no matter how well they can simulate emotion.

Legions loyalty mission is one big grey area, both morally and tactically.

[DocLasty]

There is such a thing as a no-win situation. Paragon or Renegade, the Reapers CANNOT be allowed to reach their goal. 

[Nashiktal]

Sekhem wrote...

Of course, then there's the situations the game railroads you in to with NO real valid option for one or the other - the most egregious example of this I can think of is Arrival. Even if all through ME1 and 2 you've played Shep as the do-gooder, "all life is sacred", will do anything to save a life type ... once you start that mission, you HAVE to slaughter hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians. Oh, but you can send out a message warning them that they're all going to die, so their last moments are ones of sheer terror, and THAT'S the 'paragon' option? o_O

As silly as Arrival was, that part actually makes sense mate. Its either kill the Batarians and slow down the reapers, or don't and let the reapers reap them, and Earth with no time to warn anyone.

Paragon or Renegade, the ultimate goal is to stop the reapers, and this is an incredibly simple choice, especially considering its a small (in comparison to most places) military colony.

[DocLasty]

Also true. The Batarians were screwed either way. In fact, killing them all was an act of mercy - better dead than being a husk or Indoctrinated or whathaveyou. 

[HTTP 404]

This has worked out a few times Mesina but not really for big choices. I am currently doing a "renegade" run through but making very paragon choices. I am surprised by some renegade options after making a paragon choice. The lack of renegade points because I decide not to kill morinth can be helped made up by all the DLC choices. you still get renegade points for being threatening and pre emptive killing some one, I just in the end choose paragon choices for major decisions.

For the most part I agree with you. Paragon and Renegade should be more about how make your choices not the end choices themselves. But the meta gaming in me understands how to work the system.

[Clonedzero]

Nashiktal wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

also, i'd like to add that the legion loyalty mission is MESSED up in the paragon path.

i remember recently intending to do it the reprograming way and i brought garrus along this time cus, uh he's garrus and he said "isnt reprogramming them dangerously close to indoctrination? what makes us different than the reapers then?" (or something like that paraphrasing, but he compared it directly to indoctrination)

and i was like "god damn garrus you damn genius you're right!"

its kinda worse to forcefully brainwash them then to just kill them.

Is it? They are just machines, no matter how well they can simulate emotion.

Legions loyalty mission is one big grey area, both morally and tactically.

i also think the geth as a whole will be angry at organics.

"some organics subverted our free will, our ability to self detriminate. we must eliminate this threat"

[Sekhem]

DocLasty wrote...

There is such a thing as a no-win situation. Paragon or Renegade, the Reapers CANNOT be allowed to reach their goal. 

There's also such a thing as lazy writing.  Why would a Shep who has spent years living a life of "There has to be another way" when faced with killing innocent sentients, who has already been very successful with that philosophy, suddenly decide "Oh, it's OK, they're just Batarians, no biggie!" in this case?  Even a Shep with a maxed-out Paragon bar and absolutely no Renegade points whatsoever happily condemns hundreds of thousands of innocents to die with hardly any hesitation whatsoever!  I hate to draw analogies to other sci-fi, but it seems to be about the same as Picard saying "Well, the Borg CANNOT be allowed to reach their goal - let's take the Enterprise to this system where they're amassing their fleet, and launch this (insert technobabble here) torpedo in to the star, making it go supernova.  Sure, there's a civilian Klingon colony with a population of half a million there, and a major manufacturing center that would cripple their industry in the sector, but what the hell?  We'll send them a nice condolence card."  Even in the deepest depths of his rage at the Borg, he was not willing to go that far, because of his morality (a Paragon if there ever was one!).  Kirk, on the other hand, being a more Renegade sort of captain than Picard, would probably consider that option (especially if it involved getting some alien booty in the process somehow =P)

Modifié par Sekhem, 15 juin 2011 - 07:27 .

[Nimrodell]

Biggest choices in the game should never fall under paragon/renegade category - at least not in the way they were so far. 'Cause of this we have major misconceptions like the one that renegades are pro Cerberus and I don't think that was original intent during story creation. Though that wouldn't be problem if influence itself wasn't tied to paragon/renegade score in ME2 - many players were 'farming' points by choosing designated para/rene options in order to get wanted outcomes (imported characters from ME1 had easier time thanks to para/rene inherited bonuses - and ME1 wasn't punishing for not being 'consistent' paragon or renegade, one had more freedom to be kind or ruthless depending on situation).

Ofc I'm not for yet another wasting points for passive abilities like Intimidation and Persuasion and DA2 system was something that resembled good solution with only one catch - DA2 system worked perfectly 'cause the story itself was already predetermined and it went backwards not forward like ME story goes (which is common trait for majority of RPGs and in that sense DA2 was unique).

Some were mentioning Witcher system but there's major flaw in comparing Witcher 1 and 2 with any of BW RPGs - Geralt's story is only about Geralt and there are no companions to speak of in real sense. Yes, Witcher is all about choices but those choices don't include henchmen that fight by Geralt's side - npcs are affected by his choices but there's no real interaction nor does Geralt depend on them. In that regard, BW games are still more complex 'cause player needs to watch out for choices but also needs to be careful with choices s/he makes when it comes to companions.

DA1 system was good enough tho I'm still miffed with that all gifts system - plus the fact that approval points depended also on whom player will bring (like in KotOR2)... In DA1 player is capable of major misusing gifts thus having all npcs manipulated into adoration even though their morals are totally opposite (well, I must admit that going for Reaver specc and taking Wynne there had good consequences no matter approval score).

Mesina's idea is good, by having such solution in convo wheel, one would actually be able to play paragon or renegade and make choices that suit their understanding of what type of paragon/renegade they are. Take for instance Collector Base decision - renegades should not be forced to keep it (maybe they don't trust Cerberus and TIM, maybe they are well aware that there is real danger of mass indoctrination) and paragons should not be forced on destroying it (maybe they cling onto shred of hope that they'll find something of true importance for saving all life in the galaxy). So, yes, major decisions should not work the way they worked so far and Mesina's suggestion is a step in the right direction.

Bah, I remembered again lame paragon excuse for destroying the base - paragon did sound stupid then by giving all powerful moral speech instead of having pragmatic explanation - being moral doesn't mean being stupid. Prejudices, prejudices...

[locowolfie]

One of the things that bothers me with the para/reni speech lock outs are that you can IRL always choose different. I can go around and punch you and then not the next guy and so on. And sinds they are presented as your choice not a view of someone els of you there should not be a speech lockout cuz of not innough para or reni points.

[AtlAggie]

I agree w/many of the points raised in this thread. Paragon/Renegade are misnomers. I actually like the steps DA2 took to address what I see as a somewhat broken system by replacing it with the friendship/rivalry distinction. Instead of arbitrarily labeling Hawke's choices as a "paragon" choice or a "renegade" choice (which, as discussed above, can easily be flipped by players RP'ing a certain kind of morality not in tune w/the one developed by the writers), it gave you more freedom to build your own vision of Hawke's morality, which in turn influenced your party's feelings towards Hawke, as it should (I wish ME would incorporate more squadmate reactions to Shepard's choices).

As many have said, it is very easy in ME to come up with a "paragon" reason to make a "renegade" choice. I think the para/ren influence speech locks are bad for role playing, as they encourage players to blindly follow what the GAME considers to be the paragon/renegade path just to open up additional options (which are too often presented as the "best" options, and often have better outcomes).

I'm planning to start a new playthrough soon with an uptight, law & order type Shepard who sees everything in black & white. In my head this Shep should be uber-paragon but will probably end up making many "renegade" decisions because that's how they are presented in the game. A more nuanced system like the one suggested by the OP (or maybe one which does away with "morality" altogether) would give players more freedom to define their Shepard's morality without being subjected to the arbitrary paragon/renegade designation, which may not fit the story we create for the character.

Modifié par AtlAggie, 17 juin 2011 - 04:56 .