91 réponses à ce sujet

[Skilled Seeker]

Warkupo wrote...

It's probably a plus or minus, but do keep in mind as well that the Reapers plot the advancement of organic species along paths they purposefully created. The greatest technological achievements of the organic species were put there by the Reapers for the organics to discover. Their personal advancement rate has almost nothing to do with it since the Reapers are personally controlling just how quickly a race can advance. It's not likely an accident that most of the more sentient organics all made first contact with each other over a relatively short period of time.

It is not stated or hinted at in any way that the Reapers guide organic progress before they discover Mass Effect technology. It is only after this discovery that the Reapers have left behind artifacts such as the Citadel and the Relays to guide technology. Even then if they wait too long, then civilisation will advance beyond the limit that the Reapers want them at, like the Protheans were on the verge of doing as they managed to build their own mass relay.

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 14 juin 2011 - 08:37 .

[Zandercode]

I'm pretty sure it is still just approximate. It might be off by a few thousand years but on average that's the general timeframe between each repeat of the cycle. It's just easier to say "every 50,000 years" rather than "every time civilization advances to the right point which is usually somewhere around 45,000 to 55,000 years". We know that this cycle is off schedule by at least a few thousand years this time (considering it seems Sovereign was already trying to gather allies to attack the Citadel all the way back in Rachni Wars (arguable but it seems heavily hinted that Sovereign indoctrination the rachni and that's why they attacked the Citadel races)), and yet only now has it been quite 50,000 years since the last cycle. So it seems Sovereign/the readers originally planned to do this reaping around only 47,000 years after the last, showing that they indeed are not on any time-based schedule so much as it just happens to take close to 50,000 years each time. Hope that made sense.

[TheCrakFox]

They invade every 50 thousand years ish. Nothing says or hints that they're on a strict schedule, this just happens to be the timescale at which galactic civilizations arise.

The scrolling text intro to ME2 will be shortened for simplicity.

[Alienmorph]

50 000 years is just an approximation imoh. The prothean empire ended 50 000 years before the ME events, than that became the supposed normal time passed between an invasion and one other. It's more likely that the reapers leaves vanguard unites like the Sovereing every time, to check the progressess of the new civilizations and attack when it's the right time. Liara in ME1 says only that every passed civilization was misteriosly whiped out when it reached its apex, without specifing the time passed between an extinction an one other.

Also, a civilization can rise in less than 50 000 years, but having the whole galaxy hinabitated by dozens, if not even more, of civilizations enough advanced to interact with eachother and make an galactic community/empire enough advanced to be interesting for the reapers can require much more time.

Modifié par Alienmorph, 14 juin 2011 - 08:46 .

[Skilled Seeker]

But then how would the Reapers deal with the iron age civilisation example I gave? Will they come back in just 3000 years to reap? Because unless they are the ones that create life, it doesn't make sense for civilisations across the galaxy to all advance during the same time interval. You should have different civilisations advancing to reaping state all the time.

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 14 juin 2011 - 08:48 .

[Whatever42]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

It is not stated or hinted at in any way that the Reapers guide organic progress before they discover Mass Effect technology. It is only after this discovery that the Reapers have left behind artifacts such as the Citadel and the Relays to guide technology. Even then if they wait too long, then civilisation will advance beyond the limit that the Reapers want them at, like the Protheans were on the verge of doing as they managed to build their own mass relay.

Well, we don't know everything that the Reapers are up to. If they have a schedule they must work actively at keeping it. We know that they guide species who achieve space flight.  

Maybe they arranged things so that statistically some species will have evolved capable of space flight. Maybe they actively manipulate pre-space flight species. Maybe they manipulated the Protheans through indoctrination into assisting with the evolution of pre-space flight species. This was a pretty built-up moment in ME1 - maybe it has real relevance to the plot:

"You fall into the familiar patterns of life – the hunt for food, the struggle to claim and keep a mate, the battles against the other tribes that would claim your territory. Days roll into nights and back into days. Each time you rise from sleep there is the sensation that you are not alone; that some "other" is with you sharing all you see, hear and feel. At these times your hand goes to the strange lump at the back of your skull and you remember the silver creature from the sky."

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 14 juin 2011 - 08:46 .

[marshalleck]

Zandercode wrote...

I'm pretty sure it is still just approximate. It might be off by a few thousand years but on average that's the general timeframe between each repeat of the cycle. It's just easier to say "every 50,000 years" rather than "every time civilization advances to the right point which is usually somewhere around 45,000 to 55,000 years". We know that this cycle is off schedule by at least a few thousand years this time (considering it seems Sovereign was already trying to gather allies to attack the Citadel all the way back in Rachni Wars (arguable but it seems heavily hinted that Sovereign indoctrination the rachni and that's why they attacked the Citadel races)), and yet only now has it been quite 50,000 years since the last cycle. So it seems Sovereign/the readers originally planned to do this reaping around only 47,000 years after the last, showing that they indeed are not on any time-based schedule so much as it just happens to take close to 50,000 years each time. Hope that made sense.

Obviously that's the most reasonable explanation. Which is why each time I hear the 50,000 years thing in game (I think EDI says it too) or read it in an interview, I just facepalm and tell myself the writers/producer don't remember their own lore. 

Bioware should hire me as a Mass Effect lore consultant. I'm like a walking codex with this ****.

Modifié par marshalleck, 14 juin 2011 - 08:48 .

[Alienmorph]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

But then how would the Reapers deal with the iron age civilisation example I gave? Will they come back in just 3000 years to reap? Because unless they are the ones that create life, it doesn't make sense for civilisations across the galaxy to all advance during the same time interval. You should have civilisations advancing to reaping state all the time.

Every civilization not enough advanced is spared, to have a chance to grow and replace the extincted ones. We know for example that the hanar where enough advanced to remember their contacts with the protheans, but they were spared, instead of being whiped out toghether with them. This probably means that they were not enough advanced at those time to be useful for the reapers.

[samurai crusade]

Actually OP... I think in ME2 it's stated in an email that there are genetic changes in the Keepers every 50,000 years.

Also... the destruction of civilizations on planets appear to be divisable by 50,000. Granted that is just an average... no more accurate than carbon dating.

[Thrombin]

Skilled Seeker wrote...
The person I was replying to said they check every 50,000 years. If they reap only every 50,000 years then there is no point of checking if they're not going to act on it. In ME1 this made sense as it was not stated that the Reapers reap every 50,000 years. But now in ME2 this is stated and Casey Hudson and others have said so as well.

Sovereign was a major plot point in ME1 where they specifically said he wakes up every thousand years or so to check on the progress of Galactic civilization and, as soon as it is suitable, he activates a signal which causes the Keepers on the Citadel to open a gate to let the Reapers invade.

Surely a one line bit of scroll at the start of ME2 is not enough to assume that all that is contradicted?

Clearly it's a minor typo. Someone forgot the word 'approximately'. 

That's all it is 

[Warkupo]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Warkupo wrote...

It's probably a plus or minus, but do keep in mind as well that the Reapers plot the advancement of organic species along paths they purposefully created. The greatest technological achievements of the organic species were put there by the Reapers for the organics to discover. Their personal advancement rate has almost nothing to do with it since the Reapers are personally controlling just how quickly a race can advance. It's not likely an accident that most of the more sentient organics all made first contact with each other over a relatively short period of time.

It is not stated or hinted at in any way that the Reapers guide organic progress before they discover Mass Effect technology. It is only after this discovery that the Reapers have left behind artifacts such as the Citadel and the Relays to guide technology. Even then if they wait too long, then civilisation will advance beyond the limit that the Reapers want them at, like the Protheans were on the verge of doing as they managed to build their own mass relay.

Not only is it hinted at, the whole point of Sovereign is to do just that; monitor organic life and report back to the Reaper armada. The fact that we killed him and the Reapers are stepping up their invasion plan should be an obvious signal that the Reapers aren't bounded to an extact schedule of 50,000 years.   

[TheCrakFox]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

But then how would the Reapers deal with the iron age civilisation example I gave? Will they come back in just 3000 years to reap? Because unless they are the ones that create life, it doesn't make sense for civilisations across the galaxy to all advance during the same time interval. You should have different civilisations advancing to reaping state all the time.

I imagine they'd wipe them out too. I think theres a planet on one of the games where a bronze age civilization was wiped out.

[marshalleck]

Thrombin wrote...

Clearly it's a minor typo. Someone forgot the word 'approximately'. 

That's all it is 

And they continue to forget that word each time it's subsequently brought up.

[Il Divo]

marshalleck wrote...

 And they continue to forget that word each time it's subsequently brought up.

Or perhaps they are aware, but simply don't find it to be a big deal. 

[mokponobi]

After perfecting this "reaping" for thousands of cycles, I would assume they can leave some civilizations in a "state" of development that they from experience can assume will "mature" in the next 50,000 years.

Like a farmer, you know.

[marshalleck]

Il Divo wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

 And they continue to forget that word each time it's subsequently brought up.

Or perhaps they are aware, but simply don't find it to be a big deal. 

This is canon we're talking about here. It's a matter of life and death. 

[Warkupo]

mokponobi wrote...

After perfecting this "reaping" for thousands of cycles, I would assume they can leave some civilizations in a "state" of development that they from experience can assume will "mature" in the next 50,000 years.

Like a farmer, you know.

Or a spiritual god of death. It's kind of the same thing, when you think about it.

[Malanek]

marshalleck wrote...
Which is why each time I hear the 50,000 years thing in game (I think EDI says it too) or read it in an interview, I just facepalm and tell myself the writers/producer don't remember their own lore. 

Bioware should hire me as a Mass Effect lore consultant. I'm like a walking codex with this ****.

Really? Every time you have dialogue instead of the number 50000 appearing you think they should explain it exactly? If you are asked for the time do you say "twenty-one-hundred twenty-nine eighteen seconds mark" or "half past nine"? Its pretty clearly an approximation and done for the sake of not sounding stupid rather than than the writers forgetting things.

[Zandercode]

Yeah I think what it comes down to is just a generalization taken too literally. However, it's also possible that it really is exactly 50,000. Maybe the rachni wars and indoctrination was never a sign that Sovereign meant to start the next cycle already so much as that was just a way for him to slow civilization down by a few thousand years of development to allow the 50,000 year schedule to stay intact, and maybe to also fix the "iron age issue" mention because it would allow a few of those races (such as humans at the time) to make it to the right point too. Kind of like a minor adjustment to keep everyone developing at similar speeds, the citadel races were getting too far too fast and he needed to slow them down for a bit to let humans, Drell, etc. All catch up and even out just it time for the new cycle. Just throwing that idea out there though personally I'm still leaning towards my first response that it's just a generalization and not to be taken literally. Heck maybe some reaping in the past DID take place a mere 6 or 7 thousand years after the last, and some a whole 100,000. But on average, 50,000.

[Icinix]

I like to think its just because 50,000 is easier to say in general conversaiton than "Whence a race / or society rises up to a pinnacle of technological advancement appropriate for Reaper harvesting or conquest".

[marshalleck]

Malanek999 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
Which is why each time I hear the 50,000 years thing in game (I think EDI says it too) or read it in an interview, I just facepalm and tell myself the writers/producer don't remember their own lore. 

Bioware should hire me as a Mass Effect lore consultant. I'm like a walking codex with this ****.

Really? Every time you have dialogue instead of the number 50000 appearing you think they should explain it exactly? If you are asked for the time do you say "twenty-one-hundred twenty-nine eighteen seconds mark" or "half past nine"? Its pretty clearly an approximation and done for the sake of not sounding stupid rather than than the writers forgetting things.

Whenever I am asked for the time I give it correctly to the minute, yes. I don't use vague generalizations. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 14 juin 2011 - 09:01 .

[DadeLeviathan]

If thought about in the context you put it, OP, it is a plot hole. However, this is known as 'refrigerator talk,' by some writers (I forget who coined the term). What this means is people don't really think about it until they are at the refrigerator getting something to eat, and go "Wait a minute...." So it's not really important to flesh out from a writing point of view because the question doesn't really come up during the storytelling (At least with most people).

[Vanaer]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

NuclearBuddha wrote...

OP said...
I realize that the Reapers have a set of criteria that they look for. But I'm discounting the idea that the Reapers just ignore insufficiently developed species! Why? To foster argument! PLOTHOLE, LOL.

The current crop of species would've been around 50k years ago, and the Reapers ignored them, presumably because they didn't fit the criteria. Obviously the Reapers just move on and figure they'll be later in the next cycle to stomp the slow kids on the playground.

What if they come across say an iron age society? Not advanced enough to reap but give them 3000 years or so and they may well be. If the Reapers check up only every 50,000 years then they'd either have to reap or destroy this civilisation or they'd end up being very advance by the time the next 50,000 years comes by. It makes much more sense to be constantly monitoring the activity of all life (which is what Sovereign's job is supposed to be) and then arrive once the civilisation has reached that sweet spot that the Reapers are looking for. Get it?

It's somewhere around 50,000 years each time they reap. It's not specifically 50,000 years - it's why they leave vanguards like Sovereign behind... to check on the development.

[marshalleck]

DadeLeviathan wrote...

If thought about in the context you put it, OP, it is a plot hole. However, this is known as 'refrigerator talk,' by some writers (I forget who coined the term). What this means is people don't really think about it until they are at the refrigerator getting something to eat, and go "Wait a minute...." So it's not really important to flesh out from a writing point of view because the question doesn't really come up during the storytelling (At least with most people).

Fridge logic. And ME2 is full of it.

[Skilled Seeker]

Alienmorph wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

But then how would the Reapers deal with the iron age civilisation example I gave? Will they come back in just 3000 years to reap? Because unless they are the ones that create life, it doesn't make sense for civilisations across the galaxy to all advance during the same time interval. You should have civilisations advancing to reaping state all the time.

Every civilization not enough advanced is spared, to have a chance to grow and replace the extincted ones. We know for example that the hanar where enough advanced to remember their contacts with the protheans, but they were spared, instead of being whiped out toghether with them. This probably means that they were not enough advanced at those time to be useful for the reapers.

You missed my point. If thy spare any civ that isn't advanced enough at the time of a Reaping then you'll get some of the survivng civs advancing to reaping status before the next 50,000 years since they will be at different stages of development at any one time. Unless the Reapers destroy any civ that might advance earlier than the next time interval, in which case why be wasteful like this when they can wait say 3000 years for them to advance to reaping status and then reap them.