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[Bocks]

marshalleck wrote...

Bocks wrote...

"[The Protheans] did not forge the mass relays. They merely found them, the legacy of my kind."
"Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays, our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire."
- Sovereign

Can we lock this thread now?

What has that got to do with the thread?

Civilizations rise up and develop within the 50,000 year time period addressed to in the games. During this time, they barely manage to advance to the level the Reapers require of them before wiping them out. Asking "why" it takes 50,000 years is like asking "why does the mass effect work". It's functional within the game and an established value.

Unless the Reapers tell us why they come every 50,000 years, there's really no need to speculate, as there is only one clear answer: it takes that specific period of time for civilizations to develop enough for the Reapers.

[devSin]

DocLasty wrote...

They are constantly monitoring all life. The Collector stayed behind and ran experiments, and the Reapers can control the Collectors directly. In effect, they can monitor the galaxy, even run experiments, without ever being near things and exposing themselves.

Then who stayed behind before the Protheans? Also, it took them some time to mutate the Protheans into Collectors. Why would they bother if they had other slave races from earlier reapings (and it's mentioned that the older races were far more advanced than even the Protheans)? Where did those races go? And if the Protheans were the first, how did they monitor the situation before?

Also, 50,000 years is simply not enough time for meaningful evolution. And the Reapears have to wipe out all advanced life. So they're either trying to build Salarian/Asari/Turian/etc. Reapers too, or they're just going to kill them all (the lore mentions that the Reapers leave no trace of, no witness to their existence--when they're done, there will be nothing left that knows of them). But why didn't the Reapers wipe out the early humans (it's noted that humans were evolving on Earth when the Protheans were still around) in their crusade against organic life? If the Reapers leave primitive organic species alive, why didn't the smarter Protheans try to hide among them and escape the Reapers?

Personally, I think they're trying to walk back the 50K assertion. It just makes no sense. The Protheans were hyper-advanced according to current species, and the species from 38 million years ago, for instance, that blasted into the side of a planet with their mass accelerator were certainly even more advanced. The current crop of species are monkeys in comparison.

[Bocks]

devSin wrote...

DocLasty wrote...

They are constantly monitoring all life. The Collector stayed behind and ran experiments, and the Reapers can control the Collectors directly. In effect, they can monitor the galaxy, even run experiments, without ever being near things and exposing themselves.

Then who stayed behind before the Protheans? Also, it took them some time to mutate the Protheans into Collectors. Why would they bother if they had other slave races from earlier reapings (and it's mentioned that the older races were far more advanced than even the Protheans)? Where did those races go? And if the Protheans were the first, how did they monitor the situation before?

Also, 50,000 years is simply not enough time for meaningful evolution. And the Reapears have to wipe out all advanced life. So they're either trying to build Salarian/Asari/Turian/etc. Reapers too, or they're just going to kill them all (the lore mentions that the Reapers leave no trace of, no witness to their existence--when they're done, there will be nothing left that knows of them). But why didn't the Reapers wipe out the early humans (it's noted that humans were evolving on Earth when the Protheans were still around) in their crusade against organic life? If the Reapers leave primitive organic species alive, why didn't the smarter Protheans try to hide among them and escape the Reapers?

Personally, I think they're trying to walk back the 50K assertion. It just makes no sense. The Protheans were hyper-advanced according to current species, and the species from 38 million years ago, for instance, that blasted into the side of a planet with their mass accelerator were certainly even more advanced. The current crop of species are monkeys in comparison.

You answered your own question. The Reapers didn't kill the cavemen, did they?

[Khran1505]

You're looking too deeply and specifically into this. When they say "every 50'000" years, they're talking about an estimation. Some civilisations obviously have had to advance faster than others, maybe sometimes slower, but ranging it from 50'000 years is the best anyone can do. The Reapers never mentioned the time-span between each extinction cycle and the only reference anyone has is when the Protheans themselves were wiped out about 50'000 years ago and now it's our turn.

Point is, don't take every single little word so literally. It's better than saying "Every 50'000 years, give or take a century or two."

[KotorEffect3]

Khran1505 wrote...

You're looking too deeply and specifically into this. When they say "every 50'000" years, they're talking about an estimation. Some civilisations obviously have had to advance faster than others, maybe sometimes slower, but ranging it from 50'000 years is the best anyone can do. The Reapers never mentioned the time-span between each extinction cycle and the only reference anyone has is when the Protheans themselves were wiped out about 50'000 years ago and now it's our turn.

Point is, don't take every single little word so literally. It's better than saying "Every 50'000 years, give or take a century or two."

This, 50k is an approximation and it probably varies from cycle to cycle but the average tends to be around 50k and it works for the storytelling purposes they are aiming for.  I am sure there are some cycles that have taken longer (maybe 60-70k) and some that have been shorter (30-40k) but really it isn't worth getting worked up about.

[devSin]

You answered your own question. The Reapers didn't kill the cavemen, did they?

No. But if I'm Shepard, I'll try to secretly evacuate people to the monkey planet or wherever. If I was a Prothean and I saw the end coming, I'd ditch my tech, shuttle down to Earth, and live with the cavemen.

If you're not going to wipe out all life, then some have to slip through the cracks. With the galaxy being so large (I mean, the Reapers can't even execute a plan to get here on time, much less take over), somebody has to make it (the Protheans did, but they apparently were too stingy to leave clear records beyond barely-usable beacons and a snob VI). Humans breed like rabbits, and some have to make it through, and they may be able to repopulate (especially if some asari make it too, since they can probably breed lots with such a long lifespan). So the idea that nobody is left and/or there is no record of the Reapers just isn't feasible.

And 50,000 still isn't enough time to get good-quality species-juice (not that that makes any sense either), especially not the kind that they've been used to (all the other species we hear about from past reaps are advanced beyond human comprehension).

Modifié par devSin, 15 juin 2011 - 11:31 .

[Lord Bastinator]

1.It isn't exactly 50,000 years. It's like how scientists say how old fossils are. They say it's five million years old, but that is merely a rough estimate. They don't know exactly how long it takes, so they take a rough stab at it and say every 50,000 years.

2.I'm pretty sure they said this in the games, but I will reiterate it anyways... The reapers left one behind to both signal the keepers for the reaper invasion and monitor the technological progression of the organic species. Thus, if one species did advance significantly faster than the others, they would be detected and the invasion would begin.

[Bocks]

devSin wrote...

You answered your own question. The Reapers didn't kill the cavemen, did they?

No. But if I'm Shepard, I'll try to secretly evacuate people to the monkey planet or wherever. If I was a Prothean and I saw the end coming, I'd ditch my tech, shuttle down to Earth, and live with the cavemen.

If you're not going to wipe out all life, then some have to slip through the cracks. With the galaxy being so large (I mean, the Reapers can't even execute a plan to get here on time, much less take over), somebody has to make it (the Protheans did, but they apparently were too stingy to leave clear records beyond barely-usable beacons and a snob VI). Humans breed like rabbits, and some have to make it through, and they may be able to repopulate (especially if some asari make it too, since they can probably breed lots with such a long lifespan). So the idea that nobody is left and/or there is no record of the Reapers just isn't feasible.

And 50,000 still isn't enough time to get good-quality species-juice (not that that makes any sense either), especially not the kind that they've been used to (all the other species we hear about from past reaps are advanced beyond human comprehension).

An interesting argument with four flaws.

1 - The Protheans DID hide. On Ilos. In suspension. While waiting for the Reapers to leave. For 100 years.
2 - Any large population would be noticed by the Reapers, so there would never be enough people to properly repopulate.
3 - Again, the Reapers stick around for 100 years. It's plausible that they would check and recheck every single star system for survivors.
4 - Even if some survivors did manage to get through the Reaper invasion, their descendants and the descendants of those descendants would eventually forget about the Reapers entirely, classiying them as mere myths.

As for the past species part, it's important to note that we THINK they were extremely advanced in technological terms, but in truth, they were more or less at our state. The only reason we see them as more technologically advanced is because everyone says that the Protheans had built the Mass Relays.

[Ahriman]

Because Shepard reborns every 50,000 years.
On a serious note, I believe Reapers harvest "when it's ready" and somehow it may be ready every 50,000 years or close to that. Weird law of sentient life evolution, there is a lot of them in real nature, you know.

[devSin]

Bocks wrote...

1 - The Protheans DID hide. On Ilos. In suspension. While waiting for the Reapers to leave. For 100 years.

I noted this. However, Ilos was cut off from the relay network (thanks to the Mu relay drifting off into space), and the VI killed most of the ones in stasis. And they could have left notes and data and all the information they had of the Reapers (they had to figure out that the Keepers needed to be altered, after all, and finish the Conduit), but they just sent out an ambiguous message when they woke up and left behind a sketchy VI.

Bocks wrote...

2 - Any large population would be noticed by the Reapers, so there would never be enough people to properly repopulate.

The problem with this is again Ilos. They were all able to escape detection, and would have survived but for insufficient energy to keep them all in stasis. So destroy the relay coming into your system (we know this is possible now) and build a bunker.

Bocks wrote...

3 - Again, the Reapers stick around for 100 years. It's plausible that they would check and recheck every single star system for survivors.

If they're going to wipe out the entire galaxy, they probably don't have time to keep checking every single place they decimate. 50,000 is such a short period that there could be hundreds of thousands of them, but they still have to cover the entire galaxy (unless you posit that they're coming simply for one species and ignore any that wouldn't notice, but there's nothing in the lore to suggest this).

Bocks wrote...

4 - Even if some survivors did manage to get through the Reaper invasion, their descendants and the descendants of those descendants would eventually forget about the Reapers entirely, classiying them as mere myths.

That's a pretty big leap of faith. Why would they even bother, then? If their next appointment is 50,000 years from now, just wipe out the ones you want and those you fear and disregard all the others. The volus and hanar are hardly going to evolve into threats in only 50,000 years, and according to you, they'll dismiss it by that time anyway.

Bocks wrote...

As for the past species part, it's important to note that we THINK they were extremely advanced in technological terms, but in truth, they were more or less at our state.

This is pure supposition. There's no evidence that suggests they were at the same level as current species (also, the Reapers had to evolve from something, and it surely wasn't modern day humans). Maybe their grasp of Reaper tech was as weak, but there's nothing in the game that hints at this that I can think of.

I suppose that could be the truth of it, but if it is, it makes the Reapers seem a whole lot less impressive. All that posturing to subsume species like krogan and elcor? Wow, make way for the intergalactic giants.

Modifié par devSin, 17 juin 2011 - 08:49 .

[KainrycKarr]

Civilizations have developed at different intervals. Asari came around first followed by salarians and turians, etc.

Then you've got the Yahg and the Krogan who weren't even space-faring.

Could also be explained by the possibility that the energy/resources they gather generally only lasts them around 50k years.


Every damn thing is a plothole with you people.

No plothole. Stop.

[Parah_Salin]

I didn't read this wholer thread, but....

1. Like others have said, 50 is probably an approximation
2. Indoctrination isn't just strait up enslaving people. It's also described as being subtle ways of changing people's lines of thinking. Now this could be what we're used to with people like Saren or Benezia, but there's no reason these subtle suggestions couldn't be used to help an organic civilization develop a technology needed to speed things along.

Since they leave a vanguard behind I'm sure that they wouldn't take issue with giving a civilization a "hint" in order for them to develop the way the reapers want.

[BloodySerpent]

You know, none of this explains the giraffe that was found in the pudding

[battleroyale565]

devSin wrote...

So destroy the relay coming into your system (we know this is possible now) and build a bunker.

You do remember what happened when that relay was destroyed right? It sorta defeats the idea of surviving.

[eye basher]

cause there time table got screwed up when they could no longer contact the citadel or the keepers and there vanguard had to come up with some other plan or wait for an oportunity.

[Eurhetemec]

Civilisations would advance at different speeds. They would be at different levels of development if the Reapers come to reap every 50,000 years. They might be underdeveloped or overdeveloped. Why did the writers choose arbitrarily to have the Reapers reap every 50,000 years? I believe this is a major flaw in the storyline.

Discuss.

Where are the races in ME2 getting the 50000 figure from, though?

I mean, they might just be guessing. Did the Reapers say it? I don't think they did. If it's not out of the mouths of the Reapers, it's "just a theory".

It was 50000 years since the Protheans, approximately, so presumably they're assuming this. I mean, Liara seems to make a lot of assumptions, tbh. It's quite possible it's a highly variable number with 50k being the average, for example.

Plus, it's like the Reapers have practice at this. Maybe when they first did this, it was every 10000 years, or every 100000, and they found that they needed to change their timing. How many times have they done it? Dozens? Thousands? All we're told is "millions of years", iirc. So by now they probably have a pretty good grasp on the average rate of advancement.

It's also possible that Sovereign and other previous "left behind" Reapers intentionally manipulate the situation to ensure that the crops come in on time. I mean, races advancing too slow? Drop a few bits of advanced tech in their laps via your lackeys. Races advancing too fast? Start a massive war, and set everyone back a few thousand year - indeed, Sovereign did exactly that with the Rachni, didn't he? That war caused huge problems, and probably set races back a long way.

Plus, I'm sure the Reapers accept that sometimes they'll get a better harvest than other times.

Look at the Protheans vs. the Council races.

Protheans - one race rules whole galaxy (seemingly), and is super-advanced, nearly understanding Reapertech like the Mass Effect Relays themselves.

Council Races - Four squabbling races "in charge" (ahem), many many lesser races causing all sorts of havok, no-one understands Reapertech or Mass Relays or anything like that much at all.

So which is the better harvest? The one with a single race who were super-advanced, or a zillion races who are much less so? Ask a reaper, 'cause I don't know! But you're dead wrong to say ME's writers don't know this cycle could vary - they wrote it write into the game!

[Eurhetemec]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Civilizations have developed at different intervals. Asari came around first followed by salarians and turians, etc.

Then you've got the Yahg and the Krogan who weren't even space-faring.

Could also be explained by the possibility that the energy/resources they gather generally only lasts them around 50k years.


Every damn thing is a plothole with you people.

No plothole. Stop.

Yep. It's not a plot hole because we don't know enough about what the Reapers are doing to say that. It's weird thing, sure, that could potentially BECOME a plot hole if Bioware reveal info that make it one, but it isn't right now.