222 réponses à ce sujet

[BentOrgy]

JosephDucreux wrote...

BentOrgy wrote...

You say this, yet still provide nothing, while I have. I've provided several scenarios, sources, and reasons behind her being on the squad, her legitimacy in staying there, and counterpoints to your staggeringly blind accusations. On the other hand, you casually wave them away without providing anything concrete other than your obvious disagreement.

I have provided several compelling reasons that actually make sense, but you dismiss them all as just disagreement. Just because she has intel on Saren, is a good grease monkey, and can fight off a bunch of street thugs doesn't mean she's able to take on geth. And she's a civilian who would NEVER be allowed anywhere near a theatre of ops no matter what year. IRL she would've NEVER been allowed onto the battlefield because she's a civilian, NOT a combatant. Yet you convieniently ignore all that and pin it on me instead. Oh the stupidly blind hypocrisy you're churning out here is staggering.

And as I have said, several times, one doesn't need to be a jarhead soldier to be effective. You act like she's fighting geth alone, she's not. Shep him/herself would have died long before reaching Virmire if it weren't for backup. Tali provides effective abilities and intel in fighting synthetics, which is what they happen to be fighting the majority of the time. Hence, her undeniable usefulness. Anything said to the contrary is blind.

People also said there's no reason for her to be an Admiral in ME3, and yet she is, an gives ample reason why. Yet people still love to complain about it.

She's an alien, so I doubt the Alliance gave a damn either way if she was a civilian or not. It was never opnely discussed, so we can easily infer it was never a problem. Same with Liara; it was her knowledge that made her valuable, You might not value knowledge, but its still useful.

I haven't ignored anything. Like now, I've always brought up every point (Or lack thereof.) you've made since starting this conversation. They're not compelling, they're attacks on a character you obviously disagree with. The fact that you've devolved this topic into a pissing match speaks for itself.

Modifié par BentOrgy, 21 janvier 2012 - 07:03 .

[t3HPrO]

Joseph's right. As a civilian, Tali has no business being anywhere near the frontline. Yeah sure, she MAY have had training, she may be knowledgeable with geth, but it still doesn't change the fact that she's a civilian who would be evac'd far away to a secure location where the intelligence officers would extract whatever data she has.

The final point is, civilians have never and will never be allowed anywhere near the frontlines. So Tali and Liara being main characters ingame is not only impossible, but just plain stupid.

[BentOrgy]

t3HPrO wrote...

Joseph's right. As a civilian, Tali has no business being anywhere near the frontline. Yeah sure, she MAY have had training, she may be knowledgeable with geth, but it still doesn't change the fact that she's a civilian who would be evac'd far away to a secure location where the intelligence officers would extract whatever data she has.

The final point is, civilians have never and will never be allowed anywhere near the frontlines. So Tali and Liara being main characters ingame is not only impossible, but just plain stupid.

And Ashley's makeup and free flowing hair is regulation? Miranda's catsuit makes sense? Jack makes sense? Mass Effect has shown its not above shirking what earth considers practical, or regulation.

(And I love how nearly every opponent to either/both Tali and Liara have either/both Miranda and Ashley signatures.)

Modifié par BentOrgy, 21 janvier 2012 - 07:06 .

[JosephDucreux]

BentOrgy wrote...

And as I have said, several times, one doesn't need to be a jarhead soldier to be effective. You act like she's fighting geth alone, she's not. Shep him/herself would have died long before reaching Virmire if it weren't for backup. Tali provides effective abilities and intel in fighting synthetics, which is what they happen to be fighting the majority of the time. Hence, her undeniable usefulness. Anything said to the contrary is blind.

People also said there's no reason for her to be an Admiral in ME3, and yet she is, an gives ample reason why. Yet people still love to complain about it.

She's an alien, so I doubt the Alliance gave a damn either way if she was a civilian or not. It was never opnely discussed, so we can easily infer it was never a problem.

I haven't ignored anything. Like now, I've always brought up every point (Or lack thereof.) you've made since starting this conversation. They're not compelling, they're attacks on a character you obviously disagree with. The fact that you've devolved this topic into a pissing match speaks for itself.

Yes she's not fighting geth alone. Still doesn't change the fact that she's hopelessly out of place aboard the Normandy along with Liara. Everyone else has seen combat and has prior combat experience, but Tali doesn't. Due to this, many squads and armies have been dragged down by inexperienced troops even in real life. Why? Because the newbie is lost and doesn't know what to do. Unlike the movies and videogames, ALL fresh recruits are generally lost the first time they got into combat no matter how well trained. That's why there's an experienced NCO/CO to lead them, and they always do this during less intense combat ops (i.e. scouting for Taliban in the Stan), and not during one where you're pursuing another special forces soldier across the damn Milky Way.

And yes, being a civilian IS a pretty BIG problem. No soldier in their right mind brings a civilian to combat, and even the Geneva Conventions (which the Alliance is still ruled by according to the wiki, I add) expressly forbid it.

Your hypocrisy is shining through here. I've brought up my points but you dismiss them in your blind love for your character. Your points aren't compelling at all, you're just kicking and wailing about the fact that people think that your favorite character doesn't fit in.

Modifié par JosephDucreux, 21 janvier 2012 - 07:14 .

[schemata]

t3HPrO wrote...

Joseph's right. As a civilian, Tali has no business being anywhere near the frontline. Yeah sure, she MAY have had training, she may be knowledgeable with geth, but it still doesn't change the fact that she's a civilian who would be evac'd far away to a secure location where the intelligence officers would extract whatever data she has.

The final point is, civilians have never and will never be allowed anywhere near the frontlines. So Tali and Liara being main characters ingame is not only impossible, but just plain stupid.

Just another perspective.  ME1 isnt Modern warfare or call of duty and more important me1 ust isnt a War.  Me1 centers around an operation, and you need operatives to fufill the mission. Talis had training from the migrant fleet. Is it N7 level training? No but she brings tech, and egineering prowess to the team, that surpasses anything any human, turian, salarian, or asari could pull off.  A Large theme of me1 is shep taking in aleins, partly to learn about them but moreso to fill a niche in his squad.

You dudes are thinking saving private ryan, call of duty, and modern warfare, when you should be thinking along the lines of mission impossible or even oceans 11.

[schemata]

JosephDucreux wrote...

BentOrgy wrote...

And as I have said, several times, one doesn't need to be a jarhead soldier to be effective. You act like she's fighting geth alone, she's not. Shep him/herself would have died long before reaching Virmire if it weren't for backup. Tali provides effective abilities and intel in fighting synthetics, which is what they happen to be fighting the majority of the time. Hence, her undeniable usefulness. Anything said to the contrary is blind.

People also said there's no reason for her to be an Admiral in ME3, and yet she is, an gives ample reason why. Yet people still love to complain about it.

She's an alien, so I doubt the Alliance gave a damn either way if she was a civilian or not. It was never opnely discussed, so we can easily infer it was never a problem.

I haven't ignored anything. Like now, I've always brought up every point (Or lack thereof.) you've made since starting this conversation. They're not compelling, they're attacks on a character you obviously disagree with. The fact that you've devolved this topic into a pissing match speaks for itself.

Yes she's not fighting geth alone. Still doesn't change the fact that she's hopelessly out of place aboard the Normandy along with Liara. Everyone else has seen combat and has prior combat experience, but Tali doesn't. Due to this, many squads and armies have been dragged down by inexperienced troops even in real life. Why? Because the newbie is lost and doesn't know what to do. Unlike the movies and videogames, ALL fresh recruits are generally lost the first time they got into combat no matter how well trained. That's why there's an experienced NCO/CO to lead them, and they always do this during less intense combat ops (i.e. scouting for Taliban in the Stan), and not during one where you're pursuing another special forces soldier across the damn Milky Way.

And yes, being a civilian IS a pretty BIG problem. No soldier in their right mind brings a civilian to combat, and even the Geneva Conventions (which the Alliance is still ruled by according to the wiki, I add) expressly forbid it.

Your hypocrisy is shining through here. I've brought up my points but you dismiss them in your blind love for your character. Your points aren't compelling at all, you're just kicking and wailing

Me1 and me2 arent wars. There operations.Think Mission impossible, the main combat operative dude, cruise, had a tech guy. Vig Rhymes or w.e his name is. Tali is Sheps Rhymes. Rhymes wasnt always in the fray, and mostly fufilled his niche. Yeah, that be tali. Shes not even a civilian, she's quarian that comes from a completely different background than humans. So comparing the two is just weird. 

[HTTP 404]

thats a can of worms.

[JosephDucreux]

schemata wrote...

Just another perspective.  ME1 isnt Modern warfare or call of duty and more important me1 ust isnt a War.  Me1 centers around an operation, and you need operatives to fufill the mission. Talis had training from the migrant fleet. Is it N7 level training? No but she brings tech, and egineering prowess to the team, that surpasses anything any human, turian, salarian, or asari could pull off.  A Large theme of me1 is shep taking in aleins, partly to learn about them but moreso to fill a niche in his squad.

You dudes are thinking saving private ryan, call of duty, and modern warfare, when you should be thinking along the lines of mission impossible or even oceans 11.

I'm not talking CoD here, I'm talking from real life experience. Even in both examples you gave, all of them had experience on their side. Tali doesn't. Also, Oceans 11 wasn't about taking out a freakin' army, and Ethan Hunt in MI was a former Spec Ops soldier. If intel and support was the thing Tali offered, then it would've been taken in a secure location away from the frontlines. That's how it operates. Nobody takes a civilian to the frontline just because they can 'support the team'.

[t3HPrO]

BentOrgy wrote...
And Ashley's makeup and free flowing hair is regulation? Miranda's catsuit makes sense? Jack makes sense? Mass Effect has shown its not above shirking what earth considers practical, or regulation.

(And I love how nearly every opponent to either/both Tali and Liara have either/both Miranda and Ashley signatures.)

1. Ashley is no longer operating with the Alliance. Before that, she had the nun's bun.

2. Miranda is an operative of an organization that's not supposed to exist. She's supposed to blend in by NOT wearing armor (that Cerberus logo is ridiculous though)

3. And I love how Talifans are always the first to fling accusations.

Modifié par t3HPrO, 21 janvier 2012 - 07:18 .

[JosephDucreux]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Spectres are above the law; whoever Shepard wants on the ship, he can have on the ship. Anyway, as Wrex and Garrus aren't part of the Alliance Military, they're technically civilians too.

True, Garrus is a civilian and a cop. However, going by today's SOP, if a police officer/ federal agent is required by the Armed Forces, he then becomes a combatant. Wrex is a merc, and is also therefore a combatant even though Geneva doesn't cover him.

[Kid Buu]

t3HPrO wrote...

BentOrgy wrote...
And Ashley's makeup and free flowing hair is regulation? Miranda's catsuit makes sense? Jack makes sense? Mass Effect has shown its not above shirking what earth considers practical, or regulation.

(And I love how nearly every opponent to either/both Tali and Liara have either/both Miranda and Ashley signatures.)

1. Ashley is no longer operating with the Alliance. Before that, she had the nun's bun.

2. Miranda is an operative of an organization that's not supposed to exist. She's supposed to blend in by NOT wearing armor (that Cerberus logo is ridiculous though)

3. And I love how Talifans are always the first to fling accusations.

Dont be absurd. Talifans get more harassment than any other fanbase simply because of stereotyping.

Also, come on, dont try and justify MJs outfit. Maybe on the Normandy its fine, but in combat? No. Samara and Jack are the same.

Modifié par Kid Buu, 21 janvier 2012 - 07:24 .

[ParagonForLife]

JosephDucreux wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Spectres are above the law; whoever Shepard wants on the ship, he can have on the ship. Anyway, as Wrex and Garrus aren't part of the Alliance Military, they're technically civilians too.

True, Garrus is a civilian and a cop. However, going by today's SOP, if a police officer/ federal agent is required by the Armed Forces, he then becomes a combatant. Wrex is a merc, and is also therefore a combatant even though Geneva doesn't cover him.

As a specter your allowed to have people assist you with your investigations so I dont really know what that makes your squad 

[schemata]

JosephDucreux wrote...

schemata wrote...

Just another perspective.  ME1 isnt Modern warfare or call of duty and more important me1 ust isnt a War.  Me1 centers around an operation, and you need operatives to fufill the mission. Talis had training from the migrant fleet. Is it N7 level training? No but she brings tech, and egineering prowess to the team, that surpasses anything any human, turian, salarian, or asari could pull off.  A Large theme of me1 is shep taking in aleins, partly to learn about them but moreso to fill a niche in his squad.

You dudes are thinking saving private ryan, call of duty, and modern warfare, when you should be thinking along the lines of mission impossible or even oceans 11.

I'm not talking CoD here, I'm talking from real life experience. Even in both examples you gave, all of them had experience on their side. Tali doesn't. Also, Oceans 11 wasn't about taking out a freakin' army, and Ethan Hunt in MI was a former Spec Ops soldier. If intel and support was the thing Tali offered, then it would've been taken in a secure location away from the frontlines. That's how it operates. Nobody takes a civilian to the frontline just because they can 'support the team'.

Well theres the problem. Bringing real like experience into a game world set way in the future isnt really relatable. Sort of. Right I was comparing ethan to shep. They both had extensive training. But Rhymes wasnt a gun guy, but still managed in a few scenes. There really isnt ever a front line in me1 or me2. There always operations. Go to X base with so many people. Its never trench warfare or something.  And in the future when tech is massive, if you got someone on your squad that can eliminate the tech advantage- well thats a huge advantage. Wait a tic. Why the hell am I defending a squadmate? Just about every game on the planet involves people that shouldnt "be" there.  What the hell is gordon freeman, a physicist doing running around saving the world? Why is peter parker a photo journalist living in a crappy apartment? Why challenge inane concepts? Things are the way they are. You can ride with, or even let your imagination help, saay, in space flight they were being trained or something. But yeah. This is redic, im out.

Modifié par schemata, 21 janvier 2012 - 07:28 .

[Kid Buu]

You know, this thread is SUPPOSE to be about revealing Tali`s face. Just saying.

[BentOrgy]

JosephDucreux wrote...

BentOrgy wrote...

And as I have said, several times, one doesn't need to be a jarhead soldier to be effective. You act like she's fighting geth alone, she's not. Shep him/herself would have died long before reaching Virmire if it weren't for backup. Tali provides effective abilities and intel in fighting synthetics, which is what they happen to be fighting the majority of the time. Hence, her undeniable usefulness. Anything said to the contrary is blind.

People also said there's no reason for her to be an Admiral in ME3, and yet she is, an gives ample reason why. Yet people still love to complain about it.

She's an alien, so I doubt the Alliance gave a damn either way if she was a civilian or not. It was never opnely discussed, so we can easily infer it was never a problem.

I haven't ignored anything. Like now, I've always brought up every point (Or lack thereof.) you've made since starting this conversation. They're not compelling, they're attacks on a character you obviously disagree with. The fact that you've devolved this topic into a pissing match speaks for itself.

Yes she's not fighting geth alone. Still doesn't change the fact that she's hopelessly out of place aboard the Normandy along with Liara. Everyone else has seen combat and has prior combat experience, but Tali doesn't. Due to this, many squads and armies have been dragged down by inexperienced troops even in real life. Why? Because the newbie is lost and doesn't know what to do. Unlike the movies and videogames, ALL fresh recruits are generally lost the first time they got into combat no matter how well trained. That's why there's an experienced NCO/CO to lead them, and they always do this during less intense combat ops (i.e. scouting for Taliban in the Stan), and not during one where you're pursuing another special forces soldier across the damn Milky Way.

And yes, being a civilian IS a pretty BIG problem. No soldier in their right mind brings a civilian to combat, and even the Geneva Conventions (which the Alliance is still ruled by according to the wiki, I add) expressly forbid it.

Your hypocrisy is shining through here. I've brought up my points but you dismiss them in your blind love for your character. Your points aren't compelling at all, you're just kicking and wailing about the fact that people think that your favorite character doesn't fit in.

My hypocrisy is non-existant, considering I've yet to do anything hypocritical. All I've done is give valid reason(s) as to why Bioware made Tali, and by association, Liara, a part of the primary squad. While you've merely fought against it, either with your dislike for the situation, or (As of now.) regulations that may have no bearing on the situation in Mass Effect's timeline.

Your biggest concern seems to be now, that she's had little combat experience, and is a civilian. For the first point, you have no proof, and her dialogue through all three games proves diferent. Not to mention mine and Cthulhu's discussion on the matter. For the second, wars have employed civilians in the past, contracting them for their skills and knowledge. While its true most of them probably never saw frontline action, its no stretch to assume that, in a reality situation, Tali could have provided cover support, hacking and sabotoging enemy equipment. It doesn't take a genius to hide behind some crates, and shoot/hack/overload when told to. Its not like Tali or Liara were ever dressed up to be women soldiers, with no fear of charging into the middle of open warfare. Liara would stand back and provide biotics, Tali, as I've said, would provide tech. And they've both proven throughout the games that they work well under fire, despire initially not having hardcore battle experience like Shepard. So as for getting themselves/the squad killed, highly unlikely.

You're trying desperately to paint this "Tali and Liara are hopelss n00bs and should have died in their first mission," picture, when all in-game scenarios and dialogue point to why that wouldn't be the case.

You just don't like it.

Modifié par BentOrgy, 21 janvier 2012 - 07:31 .

[JosephDucreux]

Kid Buu wrote...

Dont be absurd. Talifans get more harassment than any other fanbase simply because of stereotyping.

Back when ME2 first came out, the Talifans were harassing EVERYONE, especially the Jack, Ashley and Miranda threads. Then came the countertrolling, and here we are now.

I'd say we overdid it on the countertrolling.

[Chun Hei]

EDIT: Sorry. Wrong thread.

Modifié par Chun Hei, 21 janvier 2012 - 07:51 .

[ParagonForLife]

hey umm sorta on/off topic but Tali was a virgin rite ?>

[Kid Buu]

JosephDucreux wrote...

Kid Buu wrote...

Dont be absurd. Talifans get more harassment than any other fanbase simply because of stereotyping.

Back when ME2 first came out, the Talifans were harassing EVERYONE, especially the Jack, Ashley and Miranda threads. Then came the countertrolling, and here we are now.

I'd say we overdid it on the countertrolling.

Lol? Joseph, I have been lurking the forums since the old ones before the BSN existed. All the way back to shortly after ME came out. I was here before MJ was even in ME. You have NO idea what you are talking about.

Modifié par Kid Buu, 21 janvier 2012 - 07:39 .

[JosephDucreux]

BentOrgy wrote...

My hypocrisy is non-existant, considering I've yet to do anything hypocritical. All I've done is give valid reason(s) as to why Bioware made Tali, and by association, Liara, a part of the primary squad. While you've merely fought against it, either with your dislike for the situation, or (As of now.) regulations that may have no bearing on the situation in Mass Effect's timeline.

Your biggest concern seems to be now, that she's had little combat experience, and is a civilian. For the first point, you have no proof, and her dialogue through all three games proves diferent. For the second, wars have employed civilians in the past, contracting them for their skills and knowledge. While its true most of them probably never saw frontline action, its no stretch to assume that, in a reality situation, Tali could have provided cover support, hacking and sabotoging enemy equipment. It doesn't take a genius to hide behind some crates, and shoot/hack/overload when told to. Its not like Tali or Liara were ever dressed up to be women soldiers, with no fear of charging into the middle of open warfare. Liara would stand back and provide biotics, Tali, as I've said, would provide tech. And they've both proven throughout the games that they work well under fire, despire initially not having hardcore battle experience like Shepard. So as for getting themselves/the squad killed, highly unlikely.

You're trying desperately to paint this "Tali and Liara are hopelss n00bs and should have died in their first mission," picture, when all in-game scenarios and dialogue point to why that wouldn't be the case.

You just don't like it.

For the first point, she's never been out of the fleet prior to her Pilgrimage, so she would have no combat experience at all. Secondly, civilians were employed in a war, yes. But instead of fighting (or 'supporting' as you so insist) on the front, they were either researching new tech, working in the war industry, or providing intel to their armies behind the safety of a secure location. Even ducking behind a crate while drone spamming is STILL considered frontline action. As long as you're in a combat zone, you're on the frontlines. Also, your third point is kind of irrelevant, given that they were controlled by the same AI that controlled geth behavior, and how in hell you judge how well someone works under fire while in gameplay leaves me baffled. So no, we don't know if they actually work well under fire.

You're trying desperately to paint this as a scenario where Tali and Liara are naturals at combat when all in game scenarios don't support it.

You just can't accept it.

[BentOrgy]

JosephDucreux wrote...

Kid Buu wrote...

Dont be absurd. Talifans get more harassment than any other fanbase simply because of stereotyping.

*Snip*

Back when ME2 first came out, the Talifans were harassing EVERYONE, especially the Jack, Ashley and Miranda threads. Then came the countertrolling, and here we are now.

I'd say we overdid it on the countertrolling.

And yet, its usually Miranda and Ash fans that try to tear Talifan masculinity/character/mentality to shreds.

"You're a bunch of little girls! Real men want big boobs and ass-shots!"

"Introverted geeks who love Tali's vunerability 'cause they can't get a real girl!"

On and on.... Not saying you've done it, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me. Not trying to open another argument, but I could easily describe why I think Miranda's character is completely ridiculous, but i have never done so. In fact, I've defended Ash's character in her own thread. So its not like we're mindless zombies.

[JosephDucreux]

ParagonForLife wrote...

hey umm sorta on/off topic but Tali was a virgin rite ?>

*facedesk*

Seriously? THAT'S what you're concerned about?