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Can you have a "fairy tale" ending by making important Renegade choices?


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#26
BloodyTalon

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Schneidend wrote...

Kill the Rachni: No rachni husks, or at least fewer rachni husks. Easier to achieve final victory.

Kill Wrex: Why would you even do this? Still, Wreav is pragmatic enough that he could be convinced to join up, but it won't be as easy as convincing Wrex.

Let the Council Die: Will simply make NPCs react a little more harshly. Might make conversations a bit harder to Charm or Intimidate.

Destroy the Genophage Cure: Positive effect. The krogan will continue to fight smarter, rather than just harder.

Keep the Collector Base: Could provide a super-weapon that makes getting enough "Victory Points" to get a successful ending where fewer people die more easily.

Am I missing anything, here?


The last one could also explain how Cerebus got  contorlled  by the reapers in the demon but we will have to see.

#27
Undertone

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This thread will likely spark the endless argument between paragons and renegades.

My 5 cents:

I hope the Renegade path is more even and balanced in ME3 then what we are presented so far in the game in terms of outcomes and in terms of choices. A renegade in my book is a practical albeit ruthless/less emotional person who values the end result more then the means with which it is achieved. A sort of person that is willing to do the necessary evils for the greater good. That's what renegade means to me.

On these forums however renegade is often mistook for a psychopathic killer with no emotion willing to kill anything and anyone just for the lulz OR a pro-human Cerberus lapdog that wants to destroy the Reapers at the expense of all other races.

The biggest problem comes from the contrast that we have or lack of meaningful choices. For example we do not have sufficient information to deal with the Rachni situation, unfortunately it's a choice we have to make at the moment and we don't have the option to return at a later time to deal with the Queen once we have enough information to make appropriate choice. We cannot ask the Council on their opinion and we are only given NPC opinion that's always rescue her/kill her that doesn't help much on the issue. From a meta perspective most people that played Bioware games before know that the paragon choice will be the "right" choice in the future. So far ME2 supported the paragon choice in that the Rachni are supposedly allies against the Reapers. However making that choice in the first game you have no guarantee, no adequate information to make such a choice.

Similarly the Council decision - the renegade choice there is absolutely pointless unless you are actually aiming for human dominance. When I first did this, I picked this choice because I thought this threat was bigger then some politicians and the galaxy would die hence why we should save the reinforcements to deal with Sovereign. It's a better choice from a tactical perspective. Unfortunately picking the paragon choice has no repercussions - you save the Council and you destroy Sovereign while measly losing 6 or 7 ships. Again this has repercussion in ME2 that humanity is now the saviors, they are respected, where picking the other choice results in humanity being hated and distrusted even if they still saved the galaxy. So what's the point in making this renegade choice? It's absolutely pointless and results only in negative consequences despite the intention with which it is taken.

In ME2 we can save the Collector Base or destroy it. Saving it is the more pragmatic and sensible decision considering we can learn about the Reapers and so on. This is futile again in ME3 because Cerberus is now retconned to be working for the Reapers.

Again to come back in ME1 - you kill Balak and the hostages die. The more pragmatic decision to make considering Balak can end up killing a lot more if he is not stopped now. Of course if you let him go, he is never heard from again.

Main problems: paragon decisions always work, have absolutely no negative repercussions whereas the renegade ones have always negative results. It would have been more balanced if for example Shepard is unpopular with the aliens but highly popular with the humans depending on his choice in this case sacrificing the Council. As it stands you are either hated by the aliens and no opinion given from the humans or loved by the aliens and again no opinion from the humans.

The second problem is lack of content for renegade choices: all renegade choices result in lack of content, paragon ones result in more content. To this argument idiot people always bring the famous stupid line "Well duh death people can't come for cameos" - thanks very much for the insight Sherlock. This is very well handled in KOTOR - you kill Juhani on Dantouine and her lover becomes a dark jedi who wants to kill you on Korriban. There are tons of ways you can add content for people you killed - let their comrades come to kill you, meet their family to curse you for killing their father or mother. Meet Fist's child who is homeless now because I killed his father and is now starving. Make me experience some kind of emotion for the people I kill even if they are criminals.

Similarly it's beyond me how every criminal Paragon Shep let's go becomes a model reformed citizen now.

The only exception to this so far that I saw was on Samara loyalty mission, where the asari actually killed in cold blood.

So here's to hoping that ME3 will balance paragon and renegade because the two games are so far incredibly one-sided and biased toward paragon. Somehow paragon Shep is this sort of infallible Jesus. To me it seems a lot of the paragons here are paragons because all of their decisions turn out right. If more of the renegade ones worked out for the better people would actually play the game in a more nuanced way then rather always picking up the magic work-everything-out blue button.

#28
Silot

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I hope paragon shepard needs to sacrifice himself to save the galaxy in the full paragon ending

#29
Medhia Nox

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I've always felt that Renegades wouldn't be concerned with "Best Possible Outcome" - but rather "End Justifies the Means" and "Get the Job Done".

I think it's a little "Cake and eat it too." ((Wow, I feel like the Turian Councillor with all these quotes.)) I also think some Renegades don't realize the type of character they're playing. Sure they want to dabble in bad ass.. but in real life, many of them seem very sensitive and want good happy vibes.

Anyway - of course Renegades will be able to win, but no, I don't think it should be the same ending as Paragons.

@Silot - I'd do it. I did it for my Warden.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 15 juin 2011 - 02:13 .


#30
FERMi27

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As stated by a salarian on Illium, when you act with people like that, it always comes to bite you in the ass. I suppose that Renegades who almost never spared anyone when the obviously could(plenty of examples in both games) should have a corresponding ending, with the majority of people and aliens dead, with the whole squad sacrificied and dead, but with the Reapers defeated.

#31
FERMi27

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Silot wrote...

I hope paragon shepard needs to sacrifice himself to save the galaxy in the full paragon ending

Diasagree. Such an ending should be imposed to Renegades. They want the job done? OK, you know what to do.

#32
LPPrince

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If you're going for renegade options, I imagine you DON'T want a fairy tale ending.

#33
Bobad

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LPPrince wrote...

If you're going for renegade options, I imagine you DON'T want a fairy tale ending.


Oh, not necessarily.

Renegade Shepard: "And I lived happily ever after!"

*punches kid to unconciousness*

#34
HogarthHughes 3

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I doubt anyone will be able to get a "fairy tale" ending. Even if no one on the Normandy dies, the galaxy will be pretty well shattered (at least compared to what it was before) after all is said and done. Earth especially, but the reapers will be attacking other planets as well. Millions (hell more likely billions total) will be dead, and I'm guessing it'll take centuries for half of what was lost to be restored. Of course I could be wrong and the reapers may not be nearly the threat they've been made out to be, but I don't think Bioware will disappoint. After all, hasn't Casey Hudson or some other Bioware person said stuff like "Mass Effect 3 will be about victory through sacrifice."

I hope that human dominance doesn't end up being the best possible outcome for the renegade path. That crap at the end of ME1 (and into ME2 :/) about making a new human dominated council is ridiculous. For all intents and purposes its a coup, and the aliens must be total pushovers to allow it to happen. Then again, the fact that humans can actually be on par with species that have a couple thousand years head start is laughable. The aliens in Mass Effect are pretty inept, either that or humanity is just ridiculously awesome.

#35
LPPrince

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Bobad wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

If you're going for renegade options, I imagine you DON'T want a fairy tale ending.


Oh, not necessarily.

Renegade Shepard: "And I lived happily ever after!"

*punches kid to unconciousness*


lol

Its just that in Disney fairy tales(not counting the original much darker fairy tales), you kind of have to be nice to everyone to get the happy ending.

You can't be, "GRAAAH STAB STAB KILL KILL" and then settle down with a smile on your face.

#36
Repearized Miranda

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it be nice if players could get the opposite endings; however, I would like to think that already happens as you can be pure Renegade and save everybody having made some not so popular choices. I can't remember how kept Jack and Miranda, but I did and they survived. Then a squabble with Tali/Legion - it's possible to maintain their loyalty to ensure survival, This doesn't include:

SPOILER:

















































Having to make proper ship upgrades in which Tali, Legion, Jack, Kasumi (being the most obvious) if not done at the beginning of the SM.

#37
CaptainZaysh

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Schneidend wrote...

Kill Wrex: Why would you even do this?


Because the scene where I had to shoot my favourite bro was much more awesome than the scene where he decided he liked following me around more than he liked having a cure for the Genophage.

#38
DieHigh2012

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HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

I doubt anyone will be able to get a "fairy tale" ending. Even if no one on the Normandy dies, the galaxy will be pretty well shattered (at least compared to what it was before) after all is said and done. Earth especially, but the reapers will be attacking other planets as well. Millions (hell more likely billions total) will be dead, and I'm guessing it'll take centuries for half of what was lost to be restored. Of course I could be wrong and the reapers may not be nearly the threat they've been made out to be, but I don't think Bioware will disappoint. After all, hasn't Casey Hudson or some other Bioware person said stuff like "Mass Effect 3 will be about victory through sacrifice."

I hope that human dominance doesn't end up being the best possible outcome for the renegade path. That crap at the end of ME1 (and into ME2 :/) about making a new human dominated council is ridiculous. For all intents and purposes its a coup, and the aliens must be total pushovers to allow it to happen. Then again, the fact that humans can actually be on par with species that have a couple thousand years head start is laughable. The aliens in Mass Effect are pretty inept, either that or humanity is just ridiculously awesome.


I think that means that if you unite the whole galaxy Earth will be utterly destroyed by the time you show up with the army. It becomes a question of do you unite everyone giving you the best chance of victory but losing Earth, or do you only unite half giving you a chance to save earth but victory is not nearly as certain.

Just my two cents

#39
CaptainZaysh

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Dannyboy9876 wrote...

You Renegades are stupid.


NO U.

Dannyboy9876 wrote...
Renegade is about being ruthless and efficient. The right choices based on how it will help you, without taking emotions into account.


I Saved Wrex, Killed the Rachni, Saved the Council, told the Quarians not to fight, re-wrote the Heretic geth, and just about every "paragon" choice possible, and I'm still pure Renegade.


Killing the Rachni isn't Paragon.  What did you do with the Reaper Base?

#40
Ahglock

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Medhia Nox wrote...

I've always felt that Renegades wouldn't be concerned with "Best Possible Outcome" - but rather "End Justifies the Means" and "Get the Job Done".

I think it's a little "Cake and eat it too." ((Wow, I feel like the Turian Councillor with all these quotes.)) I also think some Renegades don't realize the type of character they're playing. Sure they want to dabble in bad ass.. but in real life, many of them seem very sensitive and want good happy vibes.

Anyway - of course Renegades will be able to win, but no, I don't think it should be the same ending as Paragons.

@Silot - I'd do it. I did it for my Warden.


The problem with that theory is renegades have the same end goal as paragons.  They want to save as many lives as possible while defeating the reapers.  How they try to accomplish that goal is just different.  The point renegades are making is if you focus on sovereign since you don't want to risk the galaxy on one ship and it basically bites you in the ass, because save everyone the paragon way is an option at that decision point fine.  But if every major decision point pans out like that it isn't fine.  

The end justifies the means works as a story choice if the best possible outcome doesn't happen every time for the other decision path.  

#41
CaptainZaysh

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FERMi27 wrote...

As stated by a salarian on Illium, when you act with people like that, it always comes to bite you in the ass. I suppose that Renegades who almost never spared anyone when the obviously could(plenty of examples in both games) should have a corresponding ending, with the majority of people and aliens dead, with the whole squad sacrificied and dead, but with the Reapers defeated.


That's a great idea.  The Paragons could have something similar, where one of their reckless gambles actually doesn't pay off for once.

Like, after they defeat the Reapers, all the militaries are spent and used up.  The power vacuum is quickly filled by the fast-breeding rachni and cured krogan, and the galaxy spirals into a brutal neverending war between aggressively territorial psychic insects who think asari are beautiful when they die, and a race of brutal warrior lizards who are extremely ******ed off about centuries of sterilisation and oppression.  They wipe out the Council races, the geth wipe out the Quarians, and humanity - too weak to stand alone against a galaxy full of warring monsters - ends up enslaved or extinct.

How d'you like the sound of that ending?

Modifié par CaptainZaysh, 15 juin 2011 - 03:29 .


#42
jamesp81

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Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...


THAT being said, Casey has hinted that if you don't build up properly and just drive through looking to get to the ending it will be very messy. So that coupled with a major mess up previously... one can only hope :wizard:


Which is pretty much how ME2 was.  You could go for the Reaper IFF pretty early, but if you bulldozed right into it as soon as the game let you, things could get ugly, although the level of ugly could be strongly mitigated by choosing the right people for the right jobs (you'd still almost certainly lose three for not having the armor, weapon, and shield upgrades).

But I doubt there will be an import state that equates to a no-win situation.  I think there will be a path to the optimal outcome with any possible import state.

#43
jamesp81

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LPPrince wrote...

If you're going for renegade options, I imagine you DON'T want a fairy tale ending.


And that's kind of the point, isn't it?  Renegades want a nasty, dark, depressing world to play in and the lower right option gives them that.  Paragons want a heroic epic type story where the good guys win against all odds and the badguys get their asses kicked.  That option is in the upper right.

Some people just can't be happy I guess.

#44
P912

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Daddy Bags wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

I wonder if there's any possible import state that makes ME3 unwinnable.


That's an interesting thought.

I'd be willing to bet that you if you let the Council die, kill the Rachni Queen, kill Wrex, let the Geth and Quarians destroy eachother, let Clan Werlock get their hands on the Genophage cure, and allow Cerberus to get their hands on Reaper Technology there's next to nothing you can do about fighting the Reapers.


Wouldn't saving the Krogan have a positive effect as there would be more of them to fight the Reapers?

#45
FERMi27

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CaptainZaysh wrote...

FERMi27 wrote...

As stated by a salarian on Illium, when you act with people like that, it always comes to bite you in the ass. I suppose that Renegades who almost never spared anyone when the obviously could(plenty of examples in both games) should have a corresponding ending, with the majority of people and aliens dead, with the whole squad sacrificied and dead, but with the Reapers defeated.


That's a great idea.  The Paragons could have something similar, where one of their reckless gambles actually doesn't pay off for once.

Like, after they defeat the Reapers, all the militaries are spent and used up.  The power vacuum is quickly filled by the fast-breeding rachni and cured krogan, and the galaxy spirals into a brutal neverending war between aggressively territorial psychic insects who think asari are beautiful when they die, and a race of brutal warrior lizards who are extremely ******ed off about centuries of sterilisation and oppression.  They wipe out the Council races, the geth wipe out the Quarians, and humanity - too weak to stand alone against a galaxy full of warring monsters - ends up enslaved or extinct.

How d'you like the sound of that ending?

Sounds like it'll never happen.
My intuition suggests that the unindoctrinated Rachni are pretty much inoffensive towards peaceful ctizens. Also, it says that Mass Effect races aren't that dumb to perform the same mistake twice, which in our case means - no more krogan rebellions, no new geth, peace with the existing ones - because I've rewrote the heretics, and there are no more hostile geth left. Those independent mobile units left will eventually be destroyed or connect to the main network, and thus trigger the automatical software update procedures.
What will be your further disingenuous assertions?:lol:

Modifié par FERMi27, 15 juin 2011 - 06:13 .


#46
Medhia Nox

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To a Renegade shouldn't the "Best Possible Outcome" be - "I killed your damn Reapers and saved your damn galaxy?"

#47
AC5

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Undertone wrote...

 


While I do agree with you on what renegades should be, I believe the problem lies in that they are the anti-hero and therefore carry all the abiquity that entails. When compared to paragons which are very straightforward in that they are searching for the absolute happiest ending possible with no morals compromised. Where as renegade then becomes the dumping ground for everything else from the pragmatist, racist, humanity first, malicious and the just plain angry shepard. This problem is then exacerbated by the paragon, neutral or, renegade dialogue system as the renegade player is then at the writer's whim as to which of the renegades to repesent.

Now on to your examples
as you stated we do not know what bioware will do with the rachni so far they seem to be portrayed as the right choice but, bioware could choose to do something tragic to tug at heartstrings or just flat out have them betray you. However bioware is trying to incorporate as many people as possible including those seeking the tale of the hero who couldn't save everyone but never weighed a life.

Now the problem with the council decision is that it suffers from a rather common problem of renegade decision in that while presented as logical are in fact not. If you take the council decision as it is presented to you know that a battle is happening, Sovereign has broken away from his escorts, the Ascension is calling for assistance and that the Alliance 5th fleet is standing by to assist. Now understand that Sovereign only goal is to open the gate for his brethren this then means that all geth are expendable it also means that Sovereign would immedieatly call for assitance from the geth forces but will not necessarily come to their aid. This then translates to that if you bypass the geth fleet Sovereign may have the geth follow you in pursuit thus potentially exposing your more valuable ships to geth fire or forceing you to strech out your screening vessels both of which could be disatrous. So therefore not only safer to destroy the geth fleet but also a blessing in that you are granted the opportunity to engage a portion of your opponents fleet with the full power of your own fleet. Next we have the Ascension which as you know is currently being mauled by more nimble geth ships where its's heavy direct fire armament is more of a hinderance and with it's speed is hopelessly out matched but, if saved for it's harassers it's oversized main gun is actually an invaulable tool against a stationary reaper since it is quite possible that your cruiser heavy force may not be able to penetrate Soveriegn's armor which would then mean the task would fall to the fighters, frigates or, any dreadnoughts available. Also the very idea of shepard being the one to make that tactical choice is a little absurd in that the only thing Shepard can be sure of is the location of Soveriegn and that Shepard now has control of the station's arms which btw could guarantee Shepard could keep Soveriegn out of the fight. What this means is that the tactical viability of saving the Ascension would be know to Hacket as soon as he arrived and would not be reliant at all of Shepard. This then brings us to what I believe would be a better renegade decision in that after the the 5th fleet saved the Ascension their Commander could then  attempt a retreat citing the presence of the council only to potentially have shepard invoke spectre status and demand the Ascension stand with the citadel fleet. With this path the crew of the Ascension would be given a heroes death, the Council would be an unforunate lose, the alliance would avoid being villianized and, humanity would not be that odd race that does not understand the definition of Alliance.

Now for the base while I do agree keeping the base appears to be a straightforeward decision but you are neglecting the prior evidence that suggest Cerberus is filled with adrenaline junkey scientist who apparently live on the edge and will throw away precaution for a slight or even nonexistant scientific gain. None of this however should entirely diminish the reason to save the base as perhaps Cerberus is worth the risk or, better yet why not utilize our wonderful Salarian STG ,along with the the IFF, to not only sieze the base but, perhaps some of the best and possibly closest scientist TIM has to offer. This path would appease the the anti-Cerberus Shepard's and, place the technology in more trustworthy hands who wouldn't melt down Bob to see if the tubes drain counter clockwise or not.

Your next example may be my most hated moment of the paragon vs. renegade debate as  neither side seems capable of realizing that both choices are wrong in their given context. What is wrong about this choice is that shepard conviently forgets about the resources available, you know the thing I'm talking about that thing that carries you around everywhere you go, that thing with loaed with a sensor suite, mass accelerator cannons, torpedoes and, is stealthy so that ballak could never be sure of it's location and would just have run the gauntlet and hope it's commanding officer didn't order the crew to fire on anything leaving the asteroid. Anyway let's hope that in ME3 Shepard peruses through that combined arms manuel and, remembers that modern warships have CIC, silly grunts commanding warships. Also please let me mock jocker for needing a target the size of a motor pool designated.

Anyway while I do not believe renegades will get the best "fairy tale" ending as you are refering but, I do hope that renegades are not short changed into to being pointlessly negative and that their hard choices that they have to make are treated as unforunate damege control.

@CaptainZaysh
And for your information sir Asari are beautiful when they die as it wasn't until ME2 when I first charged and splattered an Asari against the wall that immediately caused me to think "Wow what a lovely shade of purple their blood was" and it made me wonder why bioware would do such a thing it was almost as if they were encouraging me to kill them or, perhaps it was poetic that a species I had passed of merely "space elves" would only show me their inner beauty in their passing and so enriched by experience I set out to see if this held true for the other races but it was only after so much ruin I realized that Asari purple was the only way for me and though their screams horrified me I knew that moderation makes everything ok.

But seriously does anyone know why Asari and Turians recieved such vibrant blood colors it actually is somewhat disturbing if you think about it

#48
Malanek

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Shepard Lives wrote...

You Renegades are a puzzling bunch.

First you say you want your choices to matter, then you ask for an outcome identical to the Paragon one.


How do you come to this conclusion? Who is to say they don't want a superior outcome to all the paragon ones?

#49
Dave of Canada

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 I'd love for the "fairy tale" ending to be achieved through a mix of both morality choices, not something that's limited to Paragon and doesn't exist for Renegade. Though ME2 does hint heavily at paragon favortism, I'd hope they show benefits for Renegade decisions in Mass Effect 3 (while they haven't shown any in ME2).

Few examples!

Kill the Council?
Paragon: The Council races respect Shepard and are possibly more likely to quickly join Shepard's war against the Reapers, though there's less ships available due to their passive nature after the destruction of Sovereign.

Renegade: The Council races are considering abandoning Earth and see no reason to trust Shepard, thinking they'd be fully capable of defending themselves. Though you'd be able to convince them, it would prove itself more difficult. You'd get more ships due to them fending for themselves and the cold war against the humans since the ending of ME1.

Rachni Queen.
Paragon: The Rachni Queen assists you with her own ships and soldiers, her workers burrow holes underground in indocrinated areas and let you skip through dangerous segments. Krogan, who heard that Shepard brought back the Rachni, feel uneasy with potentially allying with him.

Renegade: The Krogan, having heard of the Rachni's demise by Shepard, possibly have more respect for not bringing them back. Krogan would potentially be easier to recruit into Shepard's army to reclaim Earth.

Wrex + Genophage cure.
Wrex dead / Cure spared: Wreav gives you allies and unites the Krogan into a large army, they wreck everything but are extremely dangerous to your own allies and it's heavily hinted they'll turn on the weakened galaxy after the Reaper invasion.

Wrex dead / Cure destroyed: Wreav doesn't care much for you, he doesn't respect you nor does he hate you. He feels like he doesn't owe you anything.

Wrex alive / Cure spared: Wrex loses his dominance over the clans once he loses control of the females, he's assassinated (possibly by Wreav) who decides his future for the Krogan is weak. Wreav still offers to help you because of the cure.

Wrex alive / Cure destroyed: Wrex keeps control of the Krogan and offers you all the help he can afford with his men.


ect.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 juin 2011 - 08:35 .


#50
Malanek

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Dave of Canada wrote...

 I'd love for the "fairy tale" ending to be achieved through a mix of both morality choices, not something that's limited to Paragon and doesn't exist for Renegade. Though ME2 does hint heavily at paragon favortism, I'd hope they show benefits for Renegade decisions in Mass Effect 3 (while they haven't shown any in ME2).

That's a really good idea. If the best outcome could only be achieved by making a mix of paragon and renegade choices then it would balance out all the conversation benefits of being pure paragon or renegade.

As for no renegade benefits in ME2 I don't accept that. We haven't really seen consequences of many of the major decisions yet, but the biggest was whether to save the council. Although the Paragon decision earns you more trust, the renegade outcome is tragtegically superior because the Turians enter an arms race with the humans and the size of the respective fleets is significantly bigger by the time the reapers arrive. You also have other things like getting a better upgrade in Zaeeds loyalty mission, having Vido dead, possessing collector base etc