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[Daddy Bags]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Daddy Bags wrote...

I'd be willing to bet that you if you let the Council die, kill the Rachni Queen, kill Wrex, let the Geth and Quarians destroy eachother, let Clan Werlock get their hands on the Genophage cure, and allow Cerberus to get their hands on Reaper Technology there's next to nothing you can do about fighting the Reapers.

That seems a bit harsh.  I think it would be a bit annoying for BioWare's big Renegade ending to be basically "LOL YOU WERE PLAYING IT WRONG!"

Oh man..this made me lol Good point by the way. Maybe you can still defeat the Reapers..it's just going to be tougher than all get out because you'll have to go out of your way to resolve all the above issues.

[Dave of Canada]

Malanek999 wrote...

Although the Paragon decision earns you more trust, the renegade outcome is tragtegically superior because the Turians enter an arms race with the humans and the size of the respective fleets is significantly bigger by the time the reapers arrive.

I would've loved this, I really would have. Though they've already shown in the Cerberus news that it happens. Due to the nature of the news where it's supposed to happen regardless of ending decision, it means that regardless of what we've done we're seeing the species building fleets.

You also have other things like getting a better upgrade in Zaeeds loyalty mission

Depends on which class (I vastly prefer Heavy Weapon ammo myself) and even then it's not something that will have any consequences in ME3.

having Vido dead

Which will have about as much impact as having Balak dead.

possessing collector base etc

Which bites us in the ass with Cerberus going "we're working the Reapers now".

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 juin 2011 - 08:50 .

[Malanek]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

Although the Paragon decision earns you more trust, the renegade outcome is tragtegically superior because the Turians enter an arms race with the humans and the size of the respective fleets is significantly bigger by the time the reapers arrive.

I would've loved this, I really would have. Though they've already shown in the Cerberus news that it happens. Due to the nature of the news where it's supposed to happen regardless of ending decision, it means that regardless of what we've done we're seeing the species building fleets.

Regardless of what it says in the CDN, the arms race started much much earlier if you kill the council. The longer an arms race goes on, the more weapons are stockpiled.

Dave of Canada wrote...

possessing collector base etc

Which bites us in the ass with Cerberus going "we're working the Reapers now".

As at the end of ME2, the renegade option has your allies in control of an extremely advanced space station. At that time, the renegade is better off. Jumping to conclusions about aspects of ME3 in which we have far from perfect knowledge is dangerous. It could well turn out to be of benefit again once Miranda takes over Cerberus. Even if you never take control of it again, during the time EDI had access to it, a whole lot of learning would've taken place.

[Daddy Bags]

Talosred wrote...

Shepard Lives wrote...

Yeah, but unless I misunderstood OP is asking for a happy everyone lives in peace ever after kind of ending. Not really the kind of ending I'd expect from a Renegade playthrough.

Hopefully he will clear it up.

To clarify what I meant in my original question..

I can imagine 3 - 4 ,maybe more, different outcomes for ME3. The best outcome being that you defeat the Reapers by a landslide minimizing the sacrifices that need to be made. The worst being that the Reapers wipe out all life in the Galaxy and you have to watch a 10 - 15 minute cutscene of this happening. From what I understand, these outcomes are based on the strength of the races that have allied themselves with you. Now, when you make an important Renegade choice you are more than often burning some bridge between yourself and that race which, in turn, affects your chances negatively against the Reapers. I want to know if you guys think we can still achieve the best possible outcome even though you've burnt several bridges. If so, how do you think this can happen?

lol Does that help?

[Daddy Bags]

Schneidend wrote...

Kill the Rachni: No rachni husks, or at least fewer rachni husks. Easier to achieve final victory.

Kill Wrex: Why would you even do this? Still, Wreav is pragmatic enough that he could be convinced to join up, but it won't be as easy as convincing Wrex.

Let the Council Die: Will simply make NPCs react a little more harshly. Might make conversations a bit harder to Charm or Intimidate.

Destroy the Genophage Cure: Positive effect. The krogan will continue to fight smarter, rather than just harder.

Keep the Collector Base: Could provide a super-weapon that makes getting enough "Victory Points" to get a successful ending where fewer people die more easily.

Am I missing anything, here?

For the most part no. I think if you let the Geth and Quarians destroy each other or turn on you that's not going to help your cause.

With that, I'm going to have to disagree with most of your logic.

If you don't kill the Queen she clearly states that she is in your debt and plans to ally herself with you in the future (ME3). By having the Rachni's help you gain a powerful ally. (I for one believe the Rachni are underated. I can't wait to see what they can do in ME3. I hope we get a Rachni squad member.) You may see some husks but I highly doubt the Queen will allow all of her children to fall under indoctrination by the Reapers. That's what started the Rachni Wars and the Queen won't let that happen again.

If you don't kill Wrex and complete his personal side quest he considers you family by the time you reunite with him in ME2 which means joining up with him should be a piece of cake. I'd rather not have to try and convince Wreav. I'm just making more trouble for myself.

If you let the Council die you stand a good chance of loosing 3 of the most powerful allies in the game (Asari, Turians and Salarians). To me that spells GAME OVER. lol I don't see how you can recover from that decision.

I do agree with you about the Genophage cure though. The modified Genophage Mordin developed is a good idea because if their birth rate is left unchecked another Krogan Rebellions could start up and no one wants that. That being said, with Wrex in control there's a chance that the Rebellions may never happen again. I kept it but I didn't destroy it. I could always destroy it in the future though. We'll see.

If you keep the Collector Base you give Cerberus a leg up because now they possess some of the deadliest technology in the universe. And from what we've learned at E3 TIM for some insane reason allied himself with the Reapers. I'm not saying they can't be defeated, you're just making more work for yourself.

So yeah the outcome of Renegade decisions aren't looking so good IMHO lol

[Daddy Bags]

ChristianSoldier wrote...

Daddy Bags wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

I wonder if there's any possible import state that makes ME3 unwinnable.

That's an interesting thought.

I'd be willing to bet that you if you let the Council die, kill the Rachni Queen, kill Wrex, let the Geth and Quarians destroy eachother, let Clan Werlock get their hands on the Genophage cure, and allow Cerberus to get their hands on Reaper Technology there's next to nothing you can do about fighting the Reapers.

Disagree. Casey already made it clear by saying that both paragon and renegade have the same goal but each moral side achieve those goals differently. Therefore I dont think BW is going to stab renegade players in the back. I play paragon btw. The ending for renegade is going to be like a star wars sith ending. BIG BAD SHEPARD with his master aka Udina.

Okay. You've made a great point and I guess you can't really argue with Mr. Hudson but what I want to know is how do Renegade choices help you when it comes time to ask for assistance from the other races?

[Daddy Bags]

Chiramu wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...

And they all lived happily ever after....except for the Batarians, Turians, Rachni, Salarians and Vorcha, who were all killed during Shepards scorched earth policy.

Ahh :< Rachni are awesome!

I think the Rachni are the most underated race in the Galaxy. I'm prone to think that they'll open a can of Whoop Ass in ME3!!!

[Schneidend]

Daddy Bags wrote...


For the most part no. I think if you let the Geth and Quarians destroy each other or turn on you that's not going to help your cause.

I imagine the geth/quarian issue is something we'll fully resolve in ME3. I doubt Tali's trial will have that huge an impact, but Bioware could surprise me.

With that, I'm going to have to disagree with most of your logic.

If you don't kill the Queen she clearly states that she is in your debt and plans to ally herself with you in the future (ME3). By having the Rachni's help you gain a powerful ally. (I for one believe the Rachni are underated. I can't wait to see what they can do in ME3. I hope we get a Rachni squad member.) You may see some husks but I highly doubt the Queen will allow all of her children to fall under indoctrination by the Reapers. That's what started the Rachni Wars and the Queen won't let that happen again.

Whether she's willing to let it happen or not isn't really the issue. It's indoctrination. Eventually, it will break any subject, no matter how psionically powerful. Benezia was a perfect example. Also, this "if you let her live stuff" is dependent on metagaming. I'm not even sure we'll see any rachni in ME3, but Renegade Shep has eliminated the risk that they might be enemies entirely. Paragon could have an ally, but they could also have a swarm of cyber-bugs on their hands.

If you don't kill Wrex and complete his personal side quest he considers you family by the time you reunite with him in ME2 which means joining up with him should be a piece of cake. I'd rather not have to try and convince Wreav. I'm just making more trouble for myself.

I think it's stupid to kill Wrex no matter what "alignment" you are, so we're in agreement here. Still, Wrex killers aren't greatly disadvantaged here. There's still a krogan army to recruit, although it will be less of a warm reception when you go to do so. Being the battlemaster of Urdnot's most powerful member, however, should give Shepard plenty of leverage.

If you let the Council die you stand a good chance of loosing 3 of the most powerful allies in the game (Asari, Turians and Salarians). To me that spells GAME OVER. lol I don't see how you can recover from that decision.

The Big Three's support is largely a given, I think. They either cooperate or there's a good chance EVERYBODY dies. My guess is that these guys are the "default" force. You just get "more" help if you can win their support more thoroughly. How Bioware handles levels of help could be very interesting, especially if how big a force you assemble is a major factor in determining whether your ending is triumphant or tragic.

I do agree with you about the Genophage cure though. The modified Genophage Mordin developed is a good idea because if their birth rate is left unchecked another Krogan Rebellions could start up and no one wants that. That being said, with Wrex in control there's a chance that the Rebellions may never happen again. I kept it but I didn't destroy it. I could always destroy it in the future though. We'll see.

The cure is bad news in the long run, and won't be fast enough to be useful in the short term. The reapers are HERE. Either the Citadel races win or lose within a few years at most. There's no time to wait for krogan to mature.

If you keep the Collector Base you give Cerberus a leg up because now they possess some of the deadliest technology in the universe. And from what we've learned at E3 TIM for some insane reason allied himself with the Reapers. I'm not saying they can't be defeated, you're just making more work for yourself.

We don't know enough about Cerberus' role to say how much or how little of the organization is against you, or if TIM is even in control of the troopers we see Shepard fighting.

[Daddy Bags]

Undertone wrote...

This thread will likely spark the endless argument between paragons and renegades.

My 5 cents:

I hope the Renegade path is more even and balanced in ME3 then what we are presented so far in the game in terms of outcomes and in terms of choices. A renegade in my book is a practical albeit ruthless/less emotional person who values the end result more then the means with which it is achieved. A sort of person that is willing to do the necessary evils for the greater good. That's what renegade means to me.

On these forums however renegade is often mistook for a psychopathic killer with no emotion willing to kill anything and anyone just for the lulz OR a pro-human Cerberus lapdog that wants to destroy the Reapers at the expense of all other races.

The biggest problem comes from the contrast that we have or lack of meaningful choices. For example we do not have sufficient information to deal with the Rachni situation, unfortunately it's a choice we have to make at the moment and we don't have the option to return at a later time to deal with the Queen once we have enough information to make appropriate choice. We cannot ask the Council on their opinion and we are only given NPC opinion that's always rescue her/kill her that doesn't help much on the issue. From a meta perspective most people that played Bioware games before know that the paragon choice will be the "right" choice in the future. So far ME2 supported the paragon choice in that the Rachni are supposedly allies against the Reapers. However making that choice in the first game you have no guarantee, no adequate information to make such a choice.

Similarly the Council decision - the renegade choice there is absolutely pointless unless you are actually aiming for human dominance. When I first did this, I picked this choice because I thought this threat was bigger then some politicians and the galaxy would die hence why we should save the reinforcements to deal with Sovereign. It's a better choice from a tactical perspective. Unfortunately picking the paragon choice has no repercussions - you save the Council and you destroy Sovereign while measly losing 6 or 7 ships. Again this has repercussion in ME2 that humanity is now the saviors, they are respected, where picking the other choice results in humanity being hated and distrusted even if they still saved the galaxy. So what's the point in making this renegade choice? It's absolutely pointless and results only in negative consequences despite the intention with which it is taken.

In ME2 we can save the Collector Base or destroy it. Saving it is the more pragmatic and sensible decision considering we can learn about the Reapers and so on. This is futile again in ME3 because Cerberus is now retconned to be working for the Reapers.

Again to come back in ME1 - you kill Balak and the hostages die. The more pragmatic decision to make considering Balak can end up killing a lot more if he is not stopped now. Of course if you let him go, he is never heard from again.

Main problems: paragon decisions always work, have absolutely no negative repercussions whereas the renegade ones have always negative results. It would have been more balanced if for example Shepard is unpopular with the aliens but highly popular with the humans depending on his choice in this case sacrificing the Council. As it stands you are either hated by the aliens and no opinion given from the humans or loved by the aliens and again no opinion from the humans.

The second problem is lack of content for renegade choices: all renegade choices result in lack of content, paragon ones result in more content. To this argument idiot people always bring the famous stupid line "Well duh death people can't come for cameos" - thanks very much for the insight Sherlock. This is very well handled in KOTOR - you kill Juhani on Dantouine and her lover becomes a dark jedi who wants to kill you on Korriban. There are tons of ways you can add content for people you killed - let their comrades come to kill you, meet their family to curse you for killing their father or mother. Meet Fist's child who is homeless now because I killed his father and is now starving. Make me experience some kind of emotion for the people I kill even if they are criminals.

Similarly it's beyond me how every criminal Paragon Shep let's go becomes a model reformed citizen now.

The only exception to this so far that I saw was on Samara loyalty mission, where the asari actually killed in cold blood.

So here's to hoping that ME3 will balance paragon and renegade because the two games are so far incredibly one-sided and biased toward paragon. Somehow paragon Shep is this sort of infallible Jesus. To me it seems a lot of the paragons here are paragons because all of their decisions turn out right. If more of the renegade ones worked out for the better people would actually play the game in a more nuanced way then rather always picking up the magic work-everything-out blue button.

First off all, great f*ckin' response. I just wanted to let you know I really appreciate the time and thought you put into it.

I don't think your definition of Renegade could be put together better. BioWare could definitely take some notes from you in terms of allowing us (the fans) to make more realistic Renegade choices.

That being said I do disagree with you on the Rachni. After you defeat Benezia, The Queen clearly states that she was born with her mothers memories and that she understands why her people were eradicated during the Rachni Wars. Her people were indoctrinated and forced to fight. That's what she meant by "Our songs were soured" or something to that extent. When you travel to Illium and talk with the Asari who was rescued by the Rachni she's able to describe to you from personal experience that they are in fact a peacefull species which leads me to believe that she will in fact hold true to the promise she makes when you let her go. So not only is there enough evidence to make that decision in ME1 you find out that it's the correct one in ME2.

I agree with you about saving the Council though and I can see why you think the game is biased in that regard. Even though you save the galaxy from utter destruction you're still hated. I've never made that decision and seen it played out in ME2 so I'll just have to take your word on it.

One thing I do find odd is that not one single Paragon choice comes back to bite you in the ass. I wonder if that will change in ME3.

All in all, very well thought out and put together. I appreciate your input.

[Daddy Bags]

FERMi27 wrote...

Silot wrote...

I hope paragon shepard needs to sacrifice himself to save the galaxy in the full paragon ending

Diasagree. Such an ending should be imposed to Renegades. They want the job done? OK, you know what to do.

I 100% agree with you. lol

[Daddy Bags]

LPPrince wrote...

If you're going for renegade options, I imagine you DON'T want a fairy tale ending.

Right. I can agree with you here but do you really want to see other races put in harms way? What about your squadmates and crew members? What about yourself? Renegades tend to be on the more selfish side IMHO. I highly doubt personal sacrifice is in Shepard's best interest. (i.e. him/her giving up his life to defeat the collectors.) I'm sure he/she wants to live to see the defeat of the Reapers.

[pnutbuttr]

-spam-

Modifié par javierabegazo, 15 juin 2011 - 11:00 .

[Daddy Bags]

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

I doubt anyone will be able to get a "fairy tale" ending. Even if no one on the Normandy dies, the galaxy will be pretty well shattered (at least compared to what it was before) after all is said and done. Earth especially, but the reapers will be attacking other planets as well. Millions (hell more likely billions total) will be dead, and I'm guessing it'll take centuries for half of what was lost to be restored. Of course I could be wrong and the reapers may not be nearly the threat they've been made out to be, but I don't think Bioware will disappoint. After all, hasn't Casey Hudson or some other Bioware person said stuff like "Mass Effect 3 will be about victory through sacrifice."

I hope that human dominance doesn't end up being the best possible outcome for the renegade path. That crap at the end of ME1 (and into ME2 :/) about making a new human dominated council is ridiculous. For all intents and purposes its a coup, and the aliens must be total pushovers to allow it to happen. Then again, the fact that humans can actually be on par with species that have a couple thousand years head start is laughable. The aliens in Mass Effect are pretty inept, either that or humanity is just ridiculously awesome.

Well said.

I think the most reasonable "Fairy Tale" ending will be limiting that "sacrifice" through which you speak of. No doubt will there be death and destruction but I don't think the Reapers are as bad as Sovereign and Harbinger say they are. I know Earth will suffer major casualties but if the rest of the galaxy is united with a legitmate plan to stop them I don't see many more races suffering loss. So instead of multiple races rebuilding maybe only the humans have to which won't take much time with the help of others. To me, that is a "Fairy Tale" ending. It's about as optimistic as you can get. lol

[Khran1505]

A lot of the point behind being a Renegade is to use force to get your way. If that's how you perceive the galaxy then an absolute vital ending suited for a Renegade player would be beneficial.

As a Paragade person, I would want to see the entire galaxy unified through equal means of peace and prosperity, beating the Reapers and living outside their ancient galactic extinction cycle. From a Renegade standpoint, I'd like to see things mixed up. Human dominance assured or perhaps every single being fearing your power, keeping the galaxy under military rule or something.

[Daddy Bags]

DieHigh2012 wrote...

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

I doubt anyone will be able to get a "fairy tale" ending. Even if no one on the Normandy dies, the galaxy will be pretty well shattered (at least compared to what it was before) after all is said and done. Earth especially, but the reapers will be attacking other planets as well. Millions (hell more likely billions total) will be dead, and I'm guessing it'll take centuries for half of what was lost to be restored. Of course I could be wrong and the reapers may not be nearly the threat they've been made out to be, but I don't think Bioware will disappoint. After all, hasn't Casey Hudson or some other Bioware person said stuff like "Mass Effect 3 will be about victory through sacrifice."

I hope that human dominance doesn't end up being the best possible outcome for the renegade path. That crap at the end of ME1 (and into ME2 :/) about making a new human dominated council is ridiculous. For all intents and purposes its a coup, and the aliens must be total pushovers to allow it to happen. Then again, the fact that humans can actually be on par with species that have a couple thousand years head start is laughable. The aliens in Mass Effect are pretty inept, either that or humanity is just ridiculously awesome.

I think that means that if you unite the whole galaxy Earth will be utterly destroyed by the time you show up with the army. It becomes a question of do you unite everyone giving you the best chance of victory but losing Earth, or do you only unite half giving you a chance to save earth but victory is not nearly as certain.

Just my two cents

Those are really interesting outcomes. They could be VERY plausible IMO. Good sh*t.

[Daddy Bags]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

FERMi27 wrote...

As stated by a salarian on Illium, when you act with people like that, it always comes to bite you in the ass. I suppose that Renegades who almost never spared anyone when the obviously could(plenty of examples in both games) should have a corresponding ending, with the majority of people and aliens dead, with the whole squad sacrificied and dead, but with the Reapers defeated.

That's a great idea.  The Paragons could have something similar, where one of their reckless gambles actually doesn't pay off for once.

Like, after they defeat the Reapers, all the militaries are spent and used up.  The power vacuum is quickly filled by the fast-breeding rachni and cured krogan, and the galaxy spirals into a brutal neverending war between aggressively territorial psychic insects who think asari are beautiful when they die, and a race of brutal warrior lizards who are extremely ******ed off about centuries of sterilisation and oppression.  They wipe out the Council races, the geth wipe out the Quarians, and humanity - too weak to stand alone against a galaxy full of warring monsters - ends up enslaved or extinct.

How d'you like the sound of that ending?

Whoa. You just blew my mind. You have several valid points. Good sh*t.

[VoidCabbage]

SennenScale wrote...

If by "fairy tale" you mean the original fairy tales and not the disney interpretation, sure.

That made me think of the Demoman.

"I'm a Grimm bloody fairy tale, with an unhappy bloody end!"

and it made me happy 

[Father_Jerusalem]

Here's my Renegade fairy tale ending.

Me, Ashley, and Miranda in a pool full of chocolate pudding while the Reapers and the rest of the galaxy burn for getting in my way.

You can keep your flowers and dollies and your "can't we all just get along?"

Oh, and get a haircut. Hippies.

[Daddy Bags]

P912 wrote...

Daddy Bags wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

I wonder if there's any possible import state that makes ME3 unwinnable.

That's an interesting thought.

I'd be willing to bet that you if you let the Council die, kill the Rachni Queen, kill Wrex, let the Geth and Quarians destroy eachother, let Clan Werlock get their hands on the Genophage cure, and allow Cerberus to get their hands on Reaper Technology there's next to nothing you can do about fighting the Reapers.

Wouldn't saving the Krogan have a positive effect as there would be more of them to fight the Reapers?

You're exactly right about the Krogan but Clan Werlock is an evil, rival gang to Clan Urdnot (Wrex's Clan) that plans to restart the Krogan Rebellions if they get a hold of the Genophage cure. That would not be good. They would probably end up working for the Reapers. You want Clan Urdnot on your side because Wrex doesn't want to travel down that path. If you kill Wrex you will most likely not get Clan Urdnot on your side which would be bad :/

[Daddy Bags]

Dave of Canada wrote...

 I'd love for the "fairy tale" ending to be achieved through a mix of both morality choices, not something that's limited to Paragon and doesn't exist for Renegade. Though ME2 does hint heavily at paragon favortism, I'd hope they show benefits for Renegade decisions in Mass Effect 3 (while they haven't shown any in ME2).

Few examples!

Kill the Council?
Paragon: The Council races respect Shepard and are possibly more likely to quickly join Shepard's war against the Reapers, though there's less ships available due to their passive nature after the destruction of Sovereign.

Renegade: The Council races are considering abandoning Earth and see no reason to trust Shepard, thinking they'd be fully capable of defending themselves. Though you'd be able to convince them, it would prove itself more difficult. You'd get more ships due to them fending for themselves and the cold war against the humans since the ending of ME1.

Rachni Queen.
Paragon: The Rachni Queen assists you with her own ships and soldiers, her workers burrow holes underground in indocrinated areas and let you skip through dangerous segments. Krogan, who heard that Shepard brought back the Rachni, feel uneasy with potentially allying with him.

Renegade: The Krogan, having heard of the Rachni's demise by Shepard, possibly have more respect for not bringing them back. Krogan would potentially be easier to recruit into Shepard's army to reclaim Earth.

Wrex + Genophage cure.
Wrex dead / Cure spared: Wreav gives you allies and unites the Krogan into a large army, they wreck everything but are extremely dangerous to your own allies and it's heavily hinted they'll turn on the weakened galaxy after the Reaper invasion.

Wrex dead / Cure destroyed: Wreav doesn't care much for you, he doesn't respect you nor does he hate you. He feels like he doesn't owe you anything.

Wrex alive / Cure spared: Wrex loses his dominance over the clans once he loses control of the females, he's assassinated (possibly by Wreav) who decides his future for the Krogan is weak. Wreav still offers to help you because of the cure.

Wrex alive / Cure destroyed: Wrex keeps control of the Krogan and offers you all the help he can afford with his men.


ect.

Well said. I like your thinking. What you state is very plausible in my mind. These scenario  may very slightly in the actual game but these could very well happen just like this as well. Good sh*t.

[Daddy Bags]

Malanek999 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

 I'd love for the "fairy tale" ending to be achieved through a mix of both morality choices, not something that's limited to Paragon and doesn't exist for Renegade. Though ME2 does hint heavily at paragon favortism, I'd hope they show benefits for Renegade decisions in Mass Effect 3 (while they haven't shown any in ME2).

That's a really good idea. If the best outcome could only be achieved by making a mix of paragon and renegade choices then it would balance out all the conversation benefits of being pure paragon or renegade.

As for no renegade benefits in ME2 I don't accept that. We haven't really seen consequences of many of the major decisions yet, but the biggest was whether to save the council. Although the Paragon decision earns you more trust, the renegade outcome is tragtegically superior because the Turians enter an arms race with the humans and the size of the respective fleets is significantly bigger by the time the reapers arrive. You also have other things like getting a better upgrade in Zaeeds loyalty mission, having Vido dead, possessing collector base etc

I like the idea of balance between important Paragon or Renegade decisions. They just need to make damn good sense to me. So far, most of the major Renegade choices haven't truly seemed like the best options. The only two that I'm really on the fence about are whether you saved the Rachni Queen or killed her, preserved the Collector base or destroyed it. It should be interesting but I don't have a problem with BioWare taking on the same approach you two stated here. Good sh*t.

[Undertone]

AC5 wrote...

 

I'm a bit biased of course – I've always liked anti-heroes more then the traditional super-hero or highly virtuous hero even as a kid. Such characters are more nuanced and more believable for me, a lot more interesting. That's what pisses me off about the paragon path – it's a magic blue button that fixes everything and you get the mission done without compromising any morals. It shouldn't be like this – this isn't good vs. evil, I'm not playing Star Wars and I'm not playing Fable where being evil is well duh evil and I'm being evil for the fun of it or various RPG reasons. I'll be the first to say that renegade choices like randomly killing someone for the sake of it are stupid. I've detailed in my previous post what renegade means to me - practical, rational person, not a psychopathic killer. And the choices we make should have good and bad results. So far though one side is presented as consistently right and the other as consistently wrong – not only that but one side results in more content. And on top of that most paragons state openly they will get extremely pissed off if their choices backfire, but are quick to say renegades should happily accept all that negativism and choices going wrong because you know – you are playing the game wrong. That kind of elitism pisses me off.

Look even how the choice for saving the base is handled - EVERY single squad member tells you it's a bad choice. Even the people who are with you when you make that choice and who actually argue also for it. What you suddenly got 360 degrees mind shift? And suddently even Miranda doesn't trust the Illusive Man!? Wtf Bioware. You make a character who by the end of the 3 day journey is suddenly an entirely new person... Such paragon bias is honestly blatantly annoying.

I disagree on the Council – this is an issue of time. Shepard needs to take care of Sovereign as fast as possible – the Geth and the Council are irrelevant and to deal with them means loss of ships and more precious time. While the Geth and the Council are occupied attacking each other you have the perfect opportunity to send the entire human fleet to deal with Sovereign. And just as you say Shepard possess the power to open and close the Citadel's arms. Open them for the fleet and close them after they enter or whenever the Geth decide to return if they decide to return to aid Sovereign. You don't have the time to deal with secondary things when if sufficient time is lost, the relay will be opened and it will be basically the end since the Reapers arrive.

I do agree Cerberus might not have been my first choice to give the Base too but just because I have the  option to give it to Cerberus I'm not going to blow up and waste an entire base full with possibilities which maybe small or big. Even it rises my percentage to win with just 0.01% it's better then it was beforehand. I'm not going to throw that away for a petty vendetta against the Illusive Man. In my opinion anyone who destroyed the base just to show to the finger to TIM deserves to have the Reapers completely obliterate the galaxy. One of the paragon speeches after all is that petty vendettas and long-time conflicts are irrelevant and secondary to the Reapers, which shows just how hypocritical most people here are.

As for Balak yeah I totally agree – why is it I can't save the hostages and pursue Balak after. What are my other companions doing? Where's the Normandy, we don't have any missiles to shoot his vehicle, ship?

Modifié par Undertone, 17 juin 2011 - 10:15 .

[Undertone]

Daddy Bags wrote...

First off all, great f*ckin' response. I just wanted to let you know I really appreciate the time and thought you put into it.

I don't think your definition of Renegade could be put together better. BioWare could definitely take some notes from you in terms of allowing us (the fans) to make more realistic Renegade choices.

That being said I do disagree with you on the Rachni. After you defeat Benezia, The Queen clearly states that she was born with her mothers memories and that she understands why her people were eradicated during the Rachni Wars. Her people were indoctrinated and forced to fight. That's what she meant by "Our songs were soured" or something to that extent. When you travel to Illium and talk with the Asari who was rescued by the Rachni she's able to describe to you from personal experience that they are in fact a peacefull species which leads me to believe that she will in fact hold true to the promise she makes when you let her go. So not only is there enough evidence to make that decision in ME1 you find out that it's the correct one in ME2.

I agree with you about saving the Council though and I can see why you think the game is biased in that regard. Even though you save the galaxy from utter destruction you're still hated. I've never made that decision and seen it played out in ME2 so I'll just have to take your word on it.

One thing I do find odd is that not one single Paragon choice comes back to bite you in the ass. I wonder if that will change in ME3.

All in all, very well thought out and put together. I appreciate your input.

Thanks for the support. My words often fall on deaf ears so I appreciate it.

As for the Rachni - the Queen could be lying to you and telling you what you want to hear. She is not going to say "Wow I would like to destroy the Galaxy, let me go now" right? And Shepard doesn't know how that is going to turn out so ME2 is irrelevant. Actually both the decision to let her go or kill her are wrong in my opinion. As I said if I had the option to return and make my choice after I'm better informed I would take that one. Unfortunately I have only two choices. The Rachni are already a dead race, the galaxy doesn't know/care about them anymore. Letting them go might be kind if they turn out to be nice and peaceful or it can lead to the utter destruction of all other species since the krogan don't have the numbers to fight them anymore. 

Since my Shepard can't choose to make the choice later when she is better informed - I killed her. I weighted that the loss of a single life is something that although would weigh on my Shepard's conscience is preferable to a scenario where billions will die if the Queen is lying and turns hostile.

Playing previous Bioware games I knew from the start the Queen will be good. My Shepard doesn't know that however.

Modifié par Undertone, 17 juin 2011 - 10:31 .

[Metalunatic]

Clonedzero wrote...

i hope so, and this is coming from a mostly paragon.

I'm paragon too and I agree.