517 réponses à ce sujet

[elearon1]

Okay, I've sent you a personal message about this and removed my comments - this is not the place for the argument we are getting into.

[Aedan_Cousland]

The same sex romance options should be new characters, not characters you've known for two games that showed absolutely no inclination towards being gay.

It would be an absolute disaster if out of the blue Shepard gets told something like this:

Garrus: Shepard, I forgot to mention....I like dudes.

Wrex: There is a shortage of breeding age females on Tuchanka, Shepard. You'll have to do. Heh Heh




Bioware shouldn't rewrite already established characters just to appease a vocal minority. Any bi or gay romance options beyond Asari characters (Liara, Samara) should be new characters introduced in ME3.

EDIT: Totally forgot about Jack, who mentions that she's had both male & female lovers in ME2. I would have no problem with her being a female romance option. But characters who never expressed an interest in the same sex in ME1 or ME2 should remain straight in ME3.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 16 juin 2011 - 01:55 .

[Destroy Raiden_]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

Wrex: There is a shortage of breeding age females on Tuchanka, Shepard. You'll have to do. Heh Heh
.

^ This is out of a horror movie! Thanks for the mental image now I won't be able to sleep!

[SennenScale]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...
Wrex: There is a shortage of breeding age females on Tuchanka, Shepard. You'll have to do. Heh Heh

That sounds hilarious to me.

[Medhia Nox]

It would be an absolute disaster...

Well, at least gay dudes aren't the only drama queens.

[elearon1]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

The same sex romance options should be new characters, not characters you've known for two games that showed absolutely no inclination towards being gay.

I think it was pretty apparent in ME2 that Tali was interested in FemShep as well, but didn't know how to approach it, perhaps. (they pulled her SS romance, but most of the buildup dialog is still there)  And we don't really get to know Ash or Kaiden any better in the second game, so you can't say we've "known them for two games and they weren't interested".  

Garus ... well, no ... I don't see that being in his personality.  Yet, one could argue that since he is already romancing someone of another race that sex isn't such an obstacle. (I'm not going to say "gender", as sex and gender are not the same thing, and gender may be an option where sex is not)

That said, I'd say we should have one more crew member of each sex in the game, so new people have new options and old people have one more option if nothing had flaoted their boats up to that point.  

[ERJAK1]

elearon1 wrote...

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

The same sex romance options should be new characters, not characters you've known for two games that showed absolutely no inclination towards being gay.

I think it was pretty apparent in ME2 that Tali was interested in FemShep as well, but didn't know how to approach it, perhaps. (they pulled her SS romance, but most of the buildup dialog is still there)  And we don't really get to know Ash or Kaiden any better in the second game, so you can't say we've "known them for two games and they weren't interested".  

Garus ... well, no ... I don't see that being in his personality.  Yet, one could argue that since he is already romancing someone of another race that sex isn't such an obstacle. (I'm not going to say "gender", as sex and gender are not the same thing, and gender may be an option where sex is not)

That said, I'd say we should have one more crew member of each sex in the game, so new people have new options and old people have one more option if nothing had flaoted their boats up to that point.  

It's a lot of personal perception of the characters as well. Tali is pretty much the only character that has blatantly flirted with a shepard of the same gender that wasn't available as a romance. Beyond that it's how you yourself view them. I.E. to me Garrus, Kaidan, Thane, Kasumi, and Jacob all seem to be totally straight with Tali, Miranda, Jack, Ashley, and Tali being bi.

But it really is a matter of how you look at it.

[Dr.MOHCTP]

ERJAK1 wrote...

elearon1 wrote...

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

The same sex romance options should be new characters, not characters you've known for two games that showed absolutely no inclination towards being gay.

I think it was pretty apparent in ME2 that Tali was interested in FemShep as well, but didn't know how to approach it, perhaps. (they pulled her SS romance, but most of the buildup dialog is still there)  And we don't really get to know Ash or Kaiden any better in the second game, so you can't say we've "known them for two games and they weren't interested".  

Garus ... well, no ... I don't see that being in his personality.  Yet, one could argue that since he is already romancing someone of another race that sex isn't such an obstacle. (I'm not going to say "gender", as sex and gender are not the same thing, and gender may be an option where sex is not)

That said, I'd say we should have one more crew member of each sex in the game, so new people have new options and old people have one more option if nothing had flaoted their boats up to that point.  

It's a lot of personal perception of the characters as well. Tali is pretty much the only character that has blatantly flirted with a shepard of the same gender that wasn't available as a romance. Beyond that it's how you yourself view them. I.E. to me Garrus, Kaidan, Thane, Kasumi, and Jacob all seem to be totally straight with Tali, Miranda, Jack, Ashley, and Tali being bi.

But it really is a matter of how you look at it.

and when we be able to see the difference between friendship and romance then we can see what nobody from old crewmembers can being bi
miranda just thanked shep for saving her sister and talked a bit about her father's complexes, finding what she tells it to another person a little shy, which is showing in her voice
jack not showing anything
ashey just sees shepard as a close friend
tali tells shepard that she trust her/him enough for link suits (link suits=/=sex), becouse of her fever, her voice is changing, and as miranda she shy during dialog.
for me only possible s/s romance with old crewmembers is kaidan and ashley, they build a good friendship in me1, in me2 they showing only once
no new ninjamancing

[shepskisaac]

ERJAK1 wrote...
Tali is pretty much the only character that has blatantly flirted with a shepard of the same gender that wasn't available as a romance.

You forgot about Kaidan who basically made ManShep a 'dumped lover' scene on Horizon.

ERJAK1 wrote...
Beyond that it's how you yourself view them. I.E. to me Garrus, Kaidan, Thane, Kasumi, and Jacob all seem to be totally straight with Tali, Miranda, Jack, Ashley, and Tali being bi.

But it really is a matter of how you look at it.

It's quite interesting how you divided "they look straight to me" and "they look bi to me" almost exclusively between men = straight and girls = bi.

[Zulmoka531]

This article seems relevant to this topic: http://calitreview.com/15594.

Modifié par Zulmoka531, 16 juin 2011 - 06:45 .

[PMC65]

IsaacShep wrote...

You forgot about Kaidan who basically made ManShep a 'dumped lover' scene on Horizon.

You know the first time maleshep met up with Kaiden, I did a double take ... the same as when Ash meets up with femshep. Both Shepards started thinking that the Lazarus project had wiped some of their memories because these two acted like they had showered with Shepard.

My femshep giggled and my maleshep started to panic .  Maybe in ME3 the truth will come out!

[ElitePinecone]

Zulmoka531 wrote...

This article seems relevant to this topic: http://calitreview.com/15594.

Yeah, this raises some salient points. I think it might've been discussed in the other thread (many moons ago). 

It throws up difficult questions about developers' mandate on characters and whether players should be able to influence NPCs by their action, or inaction. 

I'm in two minds here - their complaint about quantum paths in gaming is only valid from a meta perspective (i.e. if you go out and play all four or five combinations of LIs, and realise the pattern) - from an individual playthrough it's impossible to tell that a certain character is also open to other characters. 

Secondly they're up in arms about NPCs being malleable to player choice - I'd counter that isn't that the point of RPGs? Turning Garrus into a model C-Sec groupie or renegade Spectre wannabe by the end of ME, or influencing Ash to be less xenophobic - that's role-playing. We pick responses and the characters are shaped in response.

To put it simply: quantum paths in gaming are only noticable if you play through them all.

Potential doesn't equal reality and opportunity doesn't equal actuality. 

[Zulmoka531]

The issue I think I'm wrapped in, in regards to the article, is that while role playing elements are amazing; characters in the world should only have so much "malleability". Now I'm not directing this fully towards s/s relationships, I'm going towards a more broad spectrum here.

Take Garrus. We can aim him either down a more C-sec role or a renegade role as you described but since he, himself, is not our character we should only have so much influence over him otherwise he ceases to be his own character and becomes a mere clone or a product of the players wishes. I believe the Shadow Broker actually has something along the lines of "His true potential will never arise while under Shepards' command"

This part of my discussion is probably off topic, but I still felt the need to detail upon the article which I posted.

For the record, whilst I am in favor for s/s romances and feel they should have been implemented initially (as I feel it would have completely doused the hatred on the forums as of late concerning the issue) I'm still more partial to focusing such an endeavor onto new characters rather than the current ones.

It my humble opinion it would be a great way to make an exclusive gay character (m/m) as opposed to the "bi" route they've taken. Then again I wouldn't be opposed to the latter

Modifié par Zulmoka531, 16 juin 2011 - 07:41 .

[ElitePinecone]

Zulmoka531 wrote...

For the record, whilst I am in favor for s/s romances and feel they should have been implemented initially (as I feel it would have completely doused the hatred on the forums as of late concerning the issue) I'm still more partial to focusing such an endeavor onto new characters rather than the current ones.

It my humble opinion it would be a great way to make an exclusive gay character (m/m) as opposed to the "bi" route they've taken. Then again I wouldn't be opposed to the latter

Thanks for being so erudite, it's a nice change 

I'm in two minds, as I said - because as much as I agree that new characters would probably be preferable (and easier), I'd never discount the ability of Bioware's writers to preserve continuity if they wanted to open up familiar characters. I'm not advocating it, per se, but it's well within their potential (and 'realism', if we can apply that to a video game) if they choose to do it. 

That being said, ME3 is a great opportunity to create s/s options that are really appreciated by those who wish to use them. I'm definitely not disregarding the possibility that any new LIs would be really interesting characters. 

Regarding an exclusively m/m or f/f character, it's always possible, I suppose, but perhaps not likely. David Gaider (the lead writer for DAO/DA2) said in a forum post a while back that bisexual characters (or, as in DA2, quantum characters who are all things to all people through tricky dialogue) are a lot easier to justify, cost-wise, than purely gay or lesbian ones. 

[Aurellia]

I posed this in the other thread but I think it may be a good point for compromise/consensus for various sides of this debate:

---- quoted text ----

I think we can agree on the following

- no ninjamances
- whatever ss relationships that are in game should be high quality writing and NOT an asspull for the character if it is an existing character.

Now this said, I am going to come out and say I want well written same sex options with characters from the previous games. I would like the option to roleplay through the first two games as FemShepard longing for Tali or Ashley, which I have felt both while playing ME1 and ME2 and being frustrated that they are not available. It would be very rewarding/satisfying to have this come to fruition in the third game if it is well written.

Throwing me a token new SS romance that doesn't have a significant (eg squadmate) past with me won't cut it. I want this relationship even if it becomes romantic in the third game to have its roots in the previous games through an extended friendship. This makes the romance an integral part to the climax of the trilogy. 

This also is how I've seen relationships in real life work. Sometimes it happens right away in other cases you can have people that are sure they are friends for 10 years suddenly realize how much they really love one another. The latter is actually what happened in my life.

As a female I want Ashely and Tali. For MaleShep I want at least Kaiden. Since I am not male it is hard for me to think of another suitable male past squadie,  There seems to be a lot of support for Joker among the men wanting SS content.  Joker works well because he is almost a squad-mate and has a long past with Shepard and it would be an interesting story.  So let's say Kaiden and Joker (and maybe add a fling with Conrad Verner for comic relief to counter balance the Kelly romance:)

---- end quoted text ----

Now of course I'm coming from a pro-SS point of view but I think this approach would both make pro-SS happy while minimizing impact to those who want to avoid SS or wish to keep their conceptions of other LI characters intact.  

I can understand why a someone who is not comfortable with homosexuality may be uncomfortable with knowing that someone they are roleplaying as their best friend (bro-mance) is bisexual.  Due to our current state of society this can change the dynamics between two same sex friends and make things feel uncomfortable.  I respect these folks desire to play the game the way they want in terms of their friendships with other same sex characters.  Hopefully my proposal helps meet this goal while providing a deep and meaningful trilogy experience for those of us who do want SS romances.  

Here are the advantages
- Doesn't make all LIs SS, rather it makes only 2 of them SS (VS and Tali)
- Leaves 3/4 male LIs available for hetero-straight bro-mances.
- Ashely and Kaiden were originally intended to be SS so they have the least character continuity issues, IMHO.
- I doubt there are a ton of men who will be bro-mancing Kaiden, or Joker (I could be wrong:)
- Tali already shows admiration in ME2 that as a bi-sexual in real life I easily interpreted as romantic tension
- Brings the same sex options almost in line with opposite sex options (femshep 3 SS+kelly/ 4 OS, maleshep 2 SS + conrad/ 4 OS)
- They give SS players a trilogy based SS love arc that culminates in blossoming of love in act 3

The folks on the SS thread generally agreed if they got this they'd be damn happy.

If this was well written and no ninja-mancing then couldn't this work for the rest of you as well?

Modifié par Aurellia, 16 juin 2011 - 05:50 .

[mjb203]

---quoted text---

- no ninjamances
- whatever ss relationships that are in game should be high quality writing and NOT an asspull for the character if it is an existing character.

---end quoted text---

These are concerns that I too have. And I've seen the suggestion thrown out in a few threads to have a special colored dialog choice (or some other notification in the choice) that indicates that the choice will start a romance dialog tree. I think that would solve the problems of the ninjamancing and also concerns over character consitency (regarding orientation) for previously established characters.

Going from Aurellia's example of making the VS a s/s romance, this could make Ashley interested in the same sex for those who see her in that way, and have her not be interested in the same sex for those who feel it doesn't fit her character (and I'm one of the people who thinks it wouldn't fit her character). I have a few manSheps who have romanced her, however, I don't see her going that way for any of my femSheps. Regarding the s/s dialog from ME1 though, I was under the impression that Meer and Hale read all Shep lines regardless of the gender it was intended for, but the VO Actress for Ash didn't have any s/s lines, so that argument could go back and forth all day long and go nowhere. I may be wrong on this, but I haven't done the research that some of the others around here have done.

In addition, it would help people who already have Sheps in a romance avoid accidentally getting another started. I fail to see how this would be a bad thing, and may even help the developers with coding issues. So, if you choose to go the friendship route, it calls from friendship dialog trees and if you go the romance route, it calls from romance dialog trees.

[Destroy Raiden_]

Again with Tali must be into fshep because she said she wanted to link suits. Quarians don't view linking suits with same sex person as gay they view it as friendship as Rann says on the flotilla now of course people will try to twist this one too

Rann says she linked suits with Tali's mom twice once before Tali was conceived and again after Tali was born in order to put her in the bubble. Now considering she made this statement infront of Tali, Shep, and another crewmember in a public space what do people think she meant?

Did she mean she linked suits with Tali's mom to show a bff status. Risking her very life to prove she was a close friend.

Or did she mean she had an affair with Tali's mom so she could get it on with her behind Tali's dad's back?


I figure its the former and not the later sense the later would ruin her family and why would she come out so casually in front of a crowd and daughter of deceased?

The second evidence for her not being bi or into fshep is via dialogue she stops at I want to link suits. Only through mshep and metagaming as another sex do we learn a second reason to link suits with someone to have sex with them.

Then of course there is the final results fshep and Tali's story ends at the drive core despite how others want to think otherwise. Mshep and Tali's story ends with them in bed.

[Skirata129]

I don't want any of the vague dialogue wheel options affecting this if they make some characters gay. when I'm talking to another guy, and the option comes up, clearly label it, "hit on so and so" and then never have it come up again. Or just have people state their sexual orientation! what's the big deal about that? they could probably even pass it off as being part of the alliance psyche profile on shepard.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Sarcastic Tasha wrote...

I don't get the "straight characters turning bi" thing that people don't seem to like. Isn't it more like finding out a character is (and always was) bisexual when you just assumed the character was straight. IRL people assume I'm straight all the time, I don't care but I would certainly think it strange if they complained when they found out they were wrong "hey you were straight before and now your not, that's such bad writing!"

No, it's not. It's more like seeing one of the originally straight characters turn Bi because of a ridicuolously vocal minority.

I really dislike this argument, a lot. "He was BI the whole time! He just never showed it!"

Thats bull. I've no problem with gay or BI characters, i've a problem with clearly straight characters turning bi/gay because of a complaining. Just like i'd have a problem with a clearly gay character turning straight because of that same complaining.

Just a hypothetical; If there was a clearly gay character in a game or another kind of media, whom was then turned straight in a sequel, how would you take that? 

[Nashiktal]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Sarcastic Tasha wrote...

I don't get the "straight characters turning bi" thing that people don't seem to like. Isn't it more like finding out a character is (and always was) bisexual when you just assumed the character was straight. IRL people assume I'm straight all the time, I don't care but I would certainly think it strange if they complained when they found out they were wrong "hey you were straight before and now your not, that's such bad writing!"

No, it's not. It's more like seeing one of the originally straight characters turn Bi because of a ridicuolously vocal minority.

I really dislike this argument, a lot. "He was BI the whole time! He just never showed it!"

Thats bull. I've no problem with gay or BI characters, i've a problem with clearly straight characters turning bi/gay because of a complaining. Just like i'd have a problem with a clearly gay character turning straight because of that same complaining.

Just a hypothetical; If there was a clearly gay character in a game or another kind of media, whom was then turned straight in a sequel, how would you take that? 

You mean BI, not gay. You must remember they are opening options not closing them. 

To answer your question though I would be fine with it. The only way it would bother me is if it would change the characters personality, or if the character was built around the fact of being one sexual orientation.

Since niether seem to be the case, I think its fine. The only problem we need to worry about is ninjamancing.

[shepskisaac]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
I really dislike this argument, a lot. "He was BI the whole time! He just never showed it!"

Thats bull. I've no problem with gay or BI characters, i've a problem with clearly straight characters turning bi/gay because of a complaining. Just like i'd have a problem with a clearly gay character turning straight because of that same complaining.

Just a hypothetical; If there was a clearly gay character in a game or another kind of media, whom was then turned straight in a sequel, how would you take that?

There's a big difference between gay characters turning straight (or straight turning gay). Gay = same gender only, straight = opposite gender only. When someone admits he/she is bi, it doesn't change his/her attraction to the opposite gender. Ashley revealing she's gay would mean she faked her feelings for ManShep. Ashley revealing she's bi doesn't change anything she felt/still feels for ManShep.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 17 juin 2011 - 06:45 .

[ElitePinecone]

Nashiktal wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Sarcastic Tasha wrote...

You mean BI, not gay. You must remember they are opening options not closing them. 

To answer your question though I would be fine with it. The only way it would bother me is if it would change the characters personality, or if the character was built around the fact of being one sexual orientation.

Since niether seem to be the case, I think its fine. The only problem we need to worry about is ninjamancing.

Not to mention that none of the characters we've seen so far have stated that they're 'straight', even if labels and social norms still exist in 2186. 

People surely didn't react this badly when "clearly" not interested Garrus and Tali were open to romances in ME2. Or is that another story? 

Good writing can help. That being said, and I've said this a hundred times, it's more than likely that the s/s options will be with new characters. 

[ERJAK2]

IsaacShep wrote...

ERJAK1 wrote...
Tali is pretty much the only character that has blatantly flirted with a shepard of the same gender that wasn't available as a romance.

You forgot about Kaidan who basically made ManShep a 'dumped lover' scene on Horizon.

ERJAK1 wrote...
Beyond that it's how you yourself view them. I.E. to me Garrus, Kaidan, Thane, Kasumi, and Jacob all seem to be totally straight with Tali, Miranda, Jack, Ashley, and Tali being bi.

But it really is a matter of how you look at it.

It's quite interesting how you divided "they look straight to me" and "they look bi to me" almost exclusively between men = straight and girls = bi.

Exactly my point. I see the VAST majority of the female LIs as being bi because I WANT them to be bi so my femshep can romance them.

 If I didn't want my femshep to romance them or played Mshep my thoughts would be very different.

EDIT* this doesn't mean I would have a problem with a character I didn't see as bi going bi, feel free to romance kaidan or garrus or joker or whoever, I'm just saying that without telling me I would never suspect them to be anything but straight.

Modifié par ERJAK2, 17 juin 2011 - 07:12 .

[ERJAK2]

Nashiktal wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Sarcastic Tasha wrote...

I don't get the "straight characters turning bi" thing that people don't seem to like. Isn't it more like finding out a character is (and always was) bisexual when you just assumed the character was straight. IRL people assume I'm straight all the time, I don't care but I would certainly think it strange if they complained when they found out they were wrong "hey you were straight before and now your not, that's such bad writing!"

No, it's not. It's more like seeing one of the originally straight characters turn Bi because of a ridicuolously vocal minority.

I really dislike this argument, a lot. "He was BI the whole time! He just never showed it!"

Thats bull. I've no problem with gay or BI characters, i've a problem with clearly straight characters turning bi/gay because of a complaining. Just like i'd have a problem with a clearly gay character turning straight because of that same complaining.

Just a hypothetical; If there was a clearly gay character in a game or another kind of media, whom was then turned straight in a sequel, how would you take that? 

You mean BI, not gay. You must remember they are opening options not closing them. 

To answer your question though I would be fine with it. The only way it would bother me is if it would change the characters personality, or if the character was built around the fact of being one sexual orientation.

Since niether seem to be the case, I think its fine. The only problem we need to worry about is ninjamancing.

Gibb, to answer your question, that crap happens ALL THE TIME. and doesn't usually even wait for sequels.

And that's only if they aren't just KILLED OFF. There's a reason BURY YOUR GAYS is a rather large page on tvtropes.