517 réponses à ce sujet

[Troodon80]

We don't have a single gay character in any BW game.

Just thought I'd bring up a couple of questions involving this quote.

How many games has BioWare made in the past?

Secondly, how many of those (17 currently don't have S/S options) how many people have decided "I'm not going to buy this game because it doesn't have a bi option, that's unrealistic!"

And third, what ever happened to "Just friends"?

And fourth, would the people in the Fight for the Love thread be happy if there were only "Just friends" option? If not, then that's just as heterophobic, as not wanting any bi/homosexual characters in the game is to homophobia.

The majority of people here need to realise that there's a difference between flat out homophobia and shying away from something that they don't want.

As in, quite a number of people here want all characters to be bi/homosexual and that's fine, regardless of the fact that it is just as heterophobic. But anyone who has any form of objection is is called a homophobe.

Personally, I want people to have the option of a bi/homosexual relationship. But at the same time, I don't want the current characters to change. In ME it was about finding out about the Reapers, in ME it was about building a squad and getting to know said squad. If nothing came out about a relationship then, then why would it do so now? As people have already said, the characters were prety much lining up for Shepard in ME2. If a bi/homosexual relationship with a previous character appears in ME3, then it will be changing who the character was in ME2.

I've played every single BioWare game from the original Baldur's Gate, and have done so because of the quality and integrity of the characters, the passion and soul that goes into writing those characters. How they respond to you and your choices. The romance. If they couldn't do it in ME2, then any such romance should be with a new character.

And beyond the whole "you're a homophobe" argument that I'll likely hear; Let me tell you, I'll most likely play through the romance of that new character, should a new squadmate be made to fit that role. I just don't want to see any of the current characters give up the integrity, continuity, and overall quality that BioWare is known for, just in order to fill a niche in the market.

*End rant*

Modifié par Troodon80, 17 juin 2011 - 08:21 .

[shepskisaac]

Troodon80 wrote...
As in, quite a number of people here want all characters to be bi/homosexual

Not really.

Troodon80 wrote...
Personally, I want people to have the option of a bi/homosexual relationship. But at the same time, I don't want the current characters to change. In ME it was about finding out about the Reapers, in ME it was about building a squad and getting to know said squad. If nothing came out about a relationship then, then why would it do so now? As people have already said, the characters were prety much lining up for Shepard in ME2. If a bi/homosexual relationship with a previous character appears in ME3, then it will be changing who the character was in ME2.

So, Ash and Kaidan then? Not in ME2 squad, thus still with Tali & Garrus "in next game" and "never declared anything" pass unused.

Troodon80 wrote...
If they couldn't do it in ME2

Since they weren't squaddies in that one. Ash and Kaidan than

Modifié par IsaacShep, 17 juin 2011 - 08:28 .

[DocLasty]

I'd just like to reinforce a point that I'm sure was brought up before - the 'X character never showed signs of being bi before!' thing.

Not everybody wears their sexuality on their sleeve. It's quite common to find out that people you know, even close friends, are homosexual. I had a friend I knew for about two years at work. Good guy. We were friends. He quit the job, didn't hear from him. A few months later, I get to thinking about him and look him up on Facebook. Long story short, he turns out to be bisexual.

I would never have guessed it. There was no hint. I knew him well, sure, but apparently not well in that particular part of his life. It never came up.

So, yes - the idea that, just because a character never flat out says he's bisexual means that he can't be...is a load of crap. It happens all the time. It's extremely common.

[Bolboreta]

@Troodon, I don't think anyone could call you homophobic if you don't want current characters to change, unless s/he is a troll. It's not the same than be against s/s relationships. There are two sides in this argument (well, maybe more, but I'm not counting the "against s/s people"):

- People who wants certain returning characters to be a romance for everyone.
- People who prefer s/s romances to be new ones.

No one is going to change their minds, that's for sure. Bioware has the last word, we can only express our opinions here  and, unless those are deliberately hostile or offensive, be accepted for that. As I said other times, I choose the second option because in MY games, I have an established sexuality for almost every LI. Would I rage if Bioware made everyone/certain returning characters bisexual? Not at all, I wouldn't be angry, but that wouldn't be my preference. I'm going to have my game, with my LIs and my choices anyway

For the record, there are tons of polls about this:
http://social.biowar...20/polls/20248/
http://social.biowar...04/polls/20131/
http://social.biowar...95/polls/20093/
http://social.biowar...85/polls/20089/

Modifié par Bolboreta, 17 juin 2011 - 08:53 .

[Kronner]

I agree. S/S romances can easily screw up already established characters. Case in point..Dragon Age 2. Ugh.

[turian councilor Knockout]

I doubt Bioware will listen as always and besides who wants old squaddies to become s/s romances *some people apparently*
                                                                               

Modifié par turian councilor Knockout, 17 juin 2011 - 09:47 .

[ElitePinecone]

Kronner wrote...

I agree. S/S romances can easily screw up already established characters. Case in point..Dragon Age 2. Ugh.

No, it wasn't the malevolent spirit of vengeance inside Anders and his obsession with revenge that screwed the character at all. Or the trauma of ten years of oppression in a Templar-led city. Or the forced lobotomy of his best friend. 

It was the bisexuality! Of course! Because bisexual characters are ruined!

[Kronner]

ElitePinecone wrote...

It was the bisexuality! Of course! Because bisexual characters are ruined!

I couldn't care less about bisexual characters as long as I am not forced to choose between: Go frack yourself Anders *or* I love you.
For example, if Kaidan was suddenly making pass at male Shepard, I'd be pissed off. It never happened before, why should it happen now? Now, for all I care, make that Vega guy gay, I couldn't care less.

Modifié par Kronner, 17 juin 2011 - 09:56 .

[Troodon80]

Not really.

I've seen quite a few people use the term "fairness" when it comes to it, so I'd yes, there is quite a few. Though most likely not as many who only want one or two people to be bisexual options in ME3.

So, Ash and Kaidan then? Not in ME2 squad, thus still with Tali & Garrus "in next game" and "never declared anything" pass unused.

Personally, I've never romanced Ashley or Kaidan, so I can't say, but if they were previously, then sure. If not, then no. At the same time, however, since we don't get a lot of background story other some family history, I suppose they could, but I'm honestly against any previous character becoming a bisexual option at this point.

Since they weren't squaddies in that one. Ash and Kaidan than

In ME2, we got to see the character "for who they were," we "got to know them better," it built character. If Ashley and Kaidan are the topic, then see above.

I'd just like to reinforce a point that I'm sure was brought up before - the 'X character never showed signs of being bi before!'

I'd also, politely, like to point out that that argument has two sides. Just because a person never confirmed that they were straight doesn't mean that they are not. As you said yourself; few people wear their sexuality like a badge or indicator. I've heard the argument that "[x] never said she wasn't bi." (The Tali thread (or group) is where I frequent, so I can't vouch for the fanbase of any other character, but since this is about the romances in general, I'll try to make it as generic as possible), this argument is, basically, the sole point of discussion and really has no basis for being so.

No one is going to change their minds, that's for sure. Bioware has the last word, we can only express our opinions here, and, unless those are deliberately hostile or offensive, be accepted for that. As I said other times, I choose the second option because in MY games, I have an established sexuality for almost every LI. Would I rage if Bioware made everyone/certain returning characters bisexual? Not at all, I wouldn't be angry, but that wouldn't be my preference. I'm going to have my game, with my LIs and my choices anyway

Very true, and I'd pick the second option too. With regards to everything else you have there, I'd mostly agree with it.

In my opinion, and it is only my opinion, the best route would be to create new characters: one for each, male and female, who are bisexual. That way, the role gets filled, and, those who want their characters to stay as they are get that too. Everyone wins. I've asked people before, granted only in the Tali thread, if Tali didn't become a bisexual LI in ME3 would they settle for "a deep platonic friendship when playing as a female Shepard," most have replied positively to that. If my sense of marketing is what it used to be, then I see even less reason to change the current characters as everyone will be happy with the outcome regardless of the disappointment they would have initially.

As I've said, most, if not all of this is opinionated, so disregard at your own leisure.

[Twilight_Princess]

Bolboreta wrote...

@Troodon, I don't think anyone could call you homophobic if you don't want current characters to change, unless s/he is a troll. It's not the same than be against s/s relationships. There are two sides in this argument (well, maybe more, but I'm not counting the "against s/s people"):

- People who wants certain returning characters to be a romance for everyone.
- People who prefer s/s romances to be new ones.

No one is going to change their minds, that's for sure. Bioware has the last word, we can only express our opinions here  and, unless those are deliberately hostile or offensive, be accepted for that. As I said other times, I choose the second option because in MY games, I have an established sexuality for almost every LI. Would I rage if Bioware made everyone/certain returning characters bisexual? Not at all, I wouldn't be angry, but that wouldn't be my preference. I'm going to have my game, with my LIs and my choices anyway

For the record, there are tons of polls about this:
http://social.biowar...20/polls/20248/
http://social.biowar...04/polls/20131/
http://social.biowar...95/polls/20093/
http://social.biowar...85/polls/20089/

Exactly Bol, HOW the s/s relationships will be handled (new/old li’s?) is not the same thing as being against it. I think if this was ME2 more people would flexible about it but being 2 games in now, for me personally anyway, I feel the ship has sailed for the current Li’s preferences.  I’m a supporter of s/s romance but I also don’t think it’s unreasonable for people to use past games and past preferences of characters as evidence for the kind of sexuality they have at this point.  Do I believe everyone’s sexuality is static and never changes? Of course not. But I think the reverse is also just as silly, that no one can be 100% sure about their sexuality and that it can’t be something that WON’T ever change for some people. 

The following example I’m using is based on an assumption I’ve heard people make before and not my personal opinion. I’m just trying to articulate the problem I have with the“unconfirmed” thing .Someone could argue that Liara will eventually prefer one sex over the other because one of them will turn out to be just a phase in time, even though she clearly has shown equal interest in both sexes and this alone should dismiss such a silly accusation. But then that person  could say "Well it's not unheard of that that some bisexuals turn out to really be straight/gay over time so you can't rule out this possibility, therefore liara is not a confirmed bisexual and she's never clearly said she liked both genders equally anyway"

Making an assumption that her sexuality will change or evolve into something else because she hasn't been "clear" enough about what she likes (to that person anyway, so if they are stubborn enough no amount of evidence will do) is silly to me because her past actions should speak for themselves. I guess I’m just arguing the case that squaddies don’t have to be so blunt about their preferences to prove they are straight/bi/gay whatever.

Modifié par Hyrule_Gal, 17 juin 2011 - 10:01 .

[ElitePinecone]

Kronner wrote...

Okay, that's reasonable. 

How about if everything was player-initiated? You'd never need to press the option (and if we want to get all philosophical, the character wouldn't be bisexual unless you made the advance, because you wouldn't know if they would accept or decline). 

It worked well with Garrus/femShep - I didn't realise the 'relieve stress' was the romance line until I checked online. I barely got any hints that he was even a romancable character. 

Put it this way: unless you meta-game, the character is 'straight' up until the point where they say yes to a same-sex relationship - and if you never ask for it they can never say yes. 

If you do ask for it, then it goes further. 

[mya11]

I am ok for all diversity sexuality hetero, bi or gay, but I don't want a character change sexuality for the fan service !

I don't want a dragon age 2 bis ! I want more realistic ! I hope for the next game They are character are hetero, gay but no change in the second episode for example Mr or Mrs X her sexuality who change hetero or bi for more fan service !

[keekee53]

Honestly, I agree with the OP. Give us a button to turn it off or on. This bisexual debate is getting old. It went on for months before DAII was released and now it continues into ME3. A button would resolve everything in my opinion. Those who do not want to see anything bisexual in their game do not have to and those who want it can have it. Maybe a third option for the folks who want just the new characters to be bisexual.

[mya11]

keekee53 wrote...

Honestly, I agree with the OP. Give us a button to turn it off or on. This bisexual debate is getting old. It went on for months before DAII was released and now it continues into ME3. A button would resolve everything in my opinion. Those who do not want to see anything bisexual in their game do not have to and those who want it can have it. Maybe a third option for the folks who want just the new characters to be bisexual.

Great idea !

[ElitePinecone]

keekee53 wrote...

Honestly, I agree with the OP. Give us a button to turn it off or on. This bisexual debate is getting old. It went on for months before DAII was released and now it continues into ME3. A button would resolve everything in my opinion. Those who do not want to see anything bisexual in their game do not have to and those who want it can have it. Maybe a third option for the folks who want just the new characters to be bisexual.

Far, far, far too much work for what amounts to an optional sidequest. 

Just ignore the content, whatever they decide to do, if you don't like it. 

Is it so difficult?

I had to ignore nine separate romantic advances by female characters in ME/ME2 (Ashley, Liara, the Consort, Miranda, Tali, Jack, Gianna Parasini, Shiala), and will probably have to do more in ME3. 

I'm not advocating for a 'button' or a 'filter' because I dealt with it and didn't pick the options. 

[mopotter]

IsaacShep wrote...

Troodon80 wrote...
As in, quite a number of people here want all characters to be bi/homosexual

Not really.

Troodon80 wrote...
Personally, I want people to have the option of a bi/homosexual relationship. But at the same time, I don't want the current characters to change. In ME it was about finding out about the Reapers, in ME it was about building a squad and getting to know said squad. If nothing came out about a relationship then, then why would it do so now? As people have already said, the characters were prety much lining up for Shepard in ME2. If a bi/homosexual relationship with a previous character appears in ME3, then it will be changing who the character was in ME2.

So, Ash and Kaidan then? Not in ME2 squad, thus still with Tali & Garrus "in next game" and "never declared anything" pass unused.

Troodon80 wrote...
If they couldn't do it in ME2

Since they weren't squaddies in that one. Ash and Kaidan than

Ha Ha.  so funny.  New characters my choice.     I promise not to **** and complain if they do make past LI available, if you agree not to complain if they give us new characters, and if you see me complaining you are invited to remind me (nicely) of my promise.  

Until the game is out, Let us continue to state our hopes and disagree about Kaidan, oh yah and Ash.  

[ReveurIngenu]

keekee53 wrote...

Honestly, I agree with the OP. Give us a button to turn it off or on. This bisexual debate is getting old. It went on for months before DAII was released and now it continues into ME3. A button would resolve everything in my opinion. Those who do not want to see anything bisexual in their game do not have to and those who want it can have it. Maybe a third option for the folks who want just the new characters to be bisexual.

The problem with this is that you people never complained when female Shepard could have her lesbian relationships, be it with the Asari or with Kelly.  So complaining now and asking for a switch to turn off homosexuality clearly shows that you are only against male homosexuality, and in which case, Bioware has more interest in not implementing it than implementing it because if they did, it would show that they give in to intolerance.

[Wittand25]

A toggle in the menu would be a very bad idea.

What I can see to work would be to choose a sexual orientation for Shepard early in game. That way unwanted romances, both gay and straight, can be avoided. That way there could be even special dialog for Shepard´s orientation, like a possible female LI expressing disappointment if you have a gay male Shepard instead of the usual romance starting dialog.

[mjb203]

ReveurIngenu wrote...

keekee53 wrote...

Honestly, I agree with the OP. Give us a button to turn it off or on. This bisexual debate is getting old. It went on for months before DAII was released and now it continues into ME3. A button would resolve everything in my opinion. Those who do not want to see anything bisexual in their game do not have to and those who want it can have it. Maybe a third option for the folks who want just the new characters to be bisexual.

The problem with this is that you people never complained when female Shepard could have her lesbian relationships, be it with the Asari or with Kelly.  So complaining now and asking for a switch to turn off homosexuality clearly shows that you are only against male homosexuality, and in which case, Bioware has more interest in not implementing it than implementing it because if they did, it would show that they give in to intolerance.

Well, in all fairness, the sexuality of Kelly and Liara was established when you first met them.  The reason the Anders deal messes with everyone is that he only mentioned an interest in women to the Warden in DA:A and never showed any interest in men as far as I recall.  Isabela was previously established in DA:O, so that was easy for people to deal with.  Merrill and Fenris never showed an interest in Hawke unless s/he first showed an interest in him/her. 

It's this reason that I'm for either a clearly labeled choice, such as putting *romance* before the small bit of dialog, or giving romance options a special color on the dialog wheel, like a paragon or renegade response.  It lets people avoid what they don't want to deal with and avoids the nasty ninjamance problem.  It also lets those that see certain characters as being interested in the same sex have them as options and those that don't see them that way not have to deal with "retconning" an established character.  Everyone wins in this scenario.  Personally, I'd be for it because I don't want any of my Sheps accidentally starting another romance arc.

[78stonewobble]

ReveurIngenu wrote...
The problem with this is that you people never complained when female Shepard could have her lesbian relationships, be it with the Asari or with Kelly.  So complaining now and asking for a switch to turn off homosexuality clearly shows that you are only against male homosexuality, and in which case, Bioware has more interest in not implementing it than implementing it because if they did, it would show that they give in to intolerance.

Just wanted to say that I wouldn't have complained if there was a possibility for mshep to be with eg. thane. Would have fit right into the game world IMHO just as much as everything else.

Right now it just seems that bioware should throw another "switch" and turn everybody into bisexuals. Which is just the same. From my point of view.



Oh and right at the OP: Disaster? naah... Non elegantly implemented maybe but thats more than made up for by the coolness of more equal rights for everyone ingame.

[mopotter]

Bolboreta wrote...

@Troodon, I don't think anyone could call you homophobic if you don't want current characters to change, unless s/he is a troll. It's not the same than be against s/s relationships. There are two sides in this argument (well, maybe more, but I'm not counting the "against s/s people"):

- People who wants certain returning characters to be a romance for everyone.
- People who prefer s/s romances to be new ones.

No one is going to change their minds, that's for sure. Bioware has the last word, we can only express our opinions here  and, unless those are deliberately hostile or offensive, be accepted for that. As I said other times, I choose the second option because in MY games, I have an established sexuality for almost every LI. Would I rage if Bioware made everyone/certain returning characters bisexual? Not at all, I wouldn't be angry, but that wouldn't be my preference. I'm going to have my game, with my LIs and my choices anyway

For the record, there are tons of polls about this:
http://social.biowar...20/polls/20248/
http://social.biowar...04/polls/20131/
http://social.biowar...95/polls/20093/
http://social.biowar...85/polls/20089/

Agree, none of us are going to chang our minds.  

Since they have said ME3 will have s/s romance, I would prefer new characters and I'd really like ones who will only romance the same sex.  Someone who would say sorry, your not my type if your the opposit sex, as something new.    I've always wanted at least one LI who could be romanced by my male Shepard, and so I'm glad it's going to be available.  

I really like the idea that I'll have someone who I can't romance, and it would be fun it they were funny, sexy and intellegent so that I would like to romance them but can't.  I know there are people out there who would hate this and prefer characters who they can romance no matter what sex they are,  but I'm tired of everyone wanting to jump in the sack with Shepard if she/he says the right words.  

My bigest sorrow is if they do make the ME1 and ME2 LI group bisexual, I won't play them so that will be at least 2 new games I won't have, (by choice yes I know ).   I don't romance Tali and I don't romance Garrus so I don't think I'm being inconsistant in wanting new characters in ME3.    I will romance new character at least once to see what that character is like.  It's part of the fun.

[mopotter]

ElitePinecone wrote...

keekee53 wrote...

Honestly, I agree with the OP. Give us a button to turn it off or on. This bisexual debate is getting old. It went on for months before DAII was released and now it continues into ME3. A button would resolve everything in my opinion. Those who do not want to see anything bisexual in their game do not have to and those who want it can have it. Maybe a third option for the folks who want just the new characters to be bisexual.

Far, far, far too much work for what amounts to an optional sidequest. 

Just ignore the content, whatever they decide to do, if you don't like it. 

Is it so difficult?

I had to ignore nine separate romantic advances by female characters in ME/ME2 (Ashley, Liara, the Consort, Miranda, Tali, Jack, Gianna Parasini, Shiala), and will probably have to do more in ME3. 

I'm not advocating for a 'button' or a 'filter' because I dealt with it and didn't pick the options. 

Yes,  a button is not necessary.  They do need to have a nice, no think you I'm not interested option what would kill any romance.  But I'd like this option for anyone coming in too close.  - I'm talkinig to you Sha'ira.

[mjb203]

mopotter wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

keekee53 wrote...

Honestly, I agree with the OP. Give us a button to turn it off or on. This bisexual debate is getting old. It went on for months before DAII was released and now it continues into ME3. A button would resolve everything in my opinion. Those who do not want to see anything bisexual in their game do not have to and those who want it can have it. Maybe a third option for the folks who want just the new characters to be bisexual.

Far, far, far too much work for what amounts to an optional sidequest. 

Just ignore the content, whatever they decide to do, if you don't like it. 

Is it so difficult?

I had to ignore nine separate romantic advances by female characters in ME/ME2 (Ashley, Liara, the Consort, Miranda, Tali, Jack, Gianna Parasini, Shiala), and will probably have to do more in ME3. 

I'm not advocating for a 'button' or a 'filter' because I dealt with it and didn't pick the options. 

Yes,  a button is not necessary.  They do need to have a nice, no think you I'm not interested option what would kill any romance.  But I'd like this option for anyone coming in too close.  - I'm talkinig to you Sha'ira.

I'll agree, having a button is not necessary.  And I'd have no problem having to rebuke advances from any new characters.  The can of worms are the previously established characters.  If Bioware lets players start a romance with a character from a previous game (that was on the squad), it should be player initiated only.  The, what I call, *flirt, flirt, GTFO* trap maleHawkes can get in when trying to play a diplomatic character, I think was unnecessary.  I liked the way it was handled with Merrill and Fenris where they never showed any interest unless Hawke first showed an interest in them *with a flirt option dialog*. 

Thankfully, the ME team seems to be a bit better with their paraphrasing, so hopefully they'll at least make everything obvious.  Although I did have to reload a few times to avoid an accidental romance with Jack on a couple of my playthroughs.

[LiquidGrape]

General question: if a close friend of many years turned out to be bisexual, would you accuse him or her of not respecting integrity, continuity, and overall quality?

This is why I will never understand the alleged "retcon" argument. If certain previous characters are elaborated upon, nothing is actually contradicted.
- There is nothing to contradict.

Many bring up the meta-perspective (e.g Kaidan can only be romanced by a female Shepard so far, therefore Kaidan can only be interested in female Shepard), but that doesn't add up to a very convincing argument, seeing as it can only operate on a wholly superficial level external to the characterisation. It is an assumption derived from a technicality, superimposed onto the characters.

The potential of established characters being bisexual isn't quite the same thing. It is a potential based on a prevalent and legitimate possibility.

I do agree, however, that the game should be lucid in what adds up to romantic dialogue, so as to avoid possible ninjamances. Although frankly, I never thought that was very hard to avoid in the previous games.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 17 juin 2011 - 11:59 .

[jlb524]

LiquidGrape wrote...

I agree that the game should be lucid in what adds up to romantic dialogue, so as tp avoid possible ninjamances. Although frankly, I never thought that was very hard to avoid in the previous games.

I've never had a problem...