517 réponses à ce sujet

[mjb203]

LiquidGrape wrote...

Question: if a close friend of many years turned out to be bisexual, would you accuse him or her of not respecting integrity, continuity, and overall quality?

This is why I will never understand the alleged "retcon" argument. If certain previous characters are elaborated upon, nothing is actually contradicted.
- There is nothing to contradict.

Many bring up the meta-perspective (e.g Kaidan can only be romanced by a female Shepard so far, therefore Kaidan can only be interested in female Shepard), but that doesn't add up to a very convincing argument, seeing as it can only operate on a wholly superficial level external to the characterisation. It is an assumption derived from a technicality, superimposed onto the characters.

No, but this is a game.  If Kaidan were to all of a sudden turn out to be interested in the same sex, first off, I would hope Bioware would really write that well and not make it seem like a tacked-on fan service like Anders seemed to be.  He also NEVER shows any romantic interest in a male Shepard.  I've also seen people throw around this meta- argument when talking about the Witcher 2 with things like "why can't Geralt have s/s relations?".  Like I said before, it's a can of worms for Bioware no matter which way they go.  That's why for ME3, I would like all romances to be player-Initiated only and have those choices be obvious romance choices.

New characters, no problem, as we are getting to know them.  Just because you may not see something as a retcon, doesn't mean others won't.  We just view the characters differently.  Hopefully, no matter what way Bioware decides to handle this, they do so tastefully.

[Troodon80]

General question: if a close friend of many years turned out to be bisexual, would you accuse him or her of not respecting integrity, continuity, and overall quality?

That would depend. In the end, however, no, I would not "accuse" anyone of anything.

But, in the same regard, if a "close friend" were the type who tells you anything and everything (i.e. giving you a deep level of trust, etc), then, personally, I'd be a little put out that they didn't trust me enough to tell me, since we're "close friends" and all. Otherwise they are not close friends, they are ordinary friends or even acquaintances. Not that their sexual orientation was different from what I had perceived it to be, but rather that they didn't trust me.

[keekee53]

ElitePinecone wrote...

keekee53 wrote...

Honestly, I agree with the OP. Give us a button to turn it off or on. This bisexual debate is getting old. It went on for months before DAII was released and now it continues into ME3. A button would resolve everything in my opinion. Those who do not want to see anything bisexual in their game do not have to and those who want it can have it. Maybe a third option for the folks who want just the new characters to be bisexual.

Far, far, far too much work for what amounts to an optional sidequest. 

Just ignore the content, whatever they decide to do, if you don't like it. 

Is it so difficult?

I had to ignore nine separate romantic advances by female characters in ME/ME2 (Ashley, Liara, the Consort, Miranda, Tali, Jack, Gianna Parasini, Shiala), and will probably have to do more in ME3. 

I'm not advocating for a 'button' or a 'filter' because I dealt with it and didn't pick the options. 

I understand the romance is just an optional sub plot to the game but seriously if it was that unimportant we would not have a whole forum section to discuss it. 

You say you had to ignore nine romances but you sort of went in knowing you will have to ignore these romances.  It is like when I went in knowing I would ignore the Liara romance and anyone else I did not want my Shepard to get romantically involved with.  The point is I have never seen Kaidan or Ashley as a bisexual based on the limitations the game developer put on the characters, so I do not think Bioware should change them this late in the game.  On the other hand, many others have imagined them as being bisexual.  If they want to do fan service and change them, I rather it not be changed in my game.   So, as silly as the on\\off switch may sound, it is a solution that would make everyone happy. 

As for any new LI outside of ME1 and ME2, I do not care what they do.

[78stonewobble]

LiquidGrape wrote...

General question: if a close friend of many years turned out to be bisexual, would you accuse him or her of not respecting integrity, continuity, and overall quality?

This is why I will never understand the alleged "retcon" argument. If certain previous characters are elaborated upon, nothing is actually contradicted.
- There is nothing to contradict.

Many bring up the meta-perspective (e.g Kaidan can only be romanced by a female Shepard so far, therefore Kaidan can only be interested in female Shepard), but that doesn't add up to a very convincing argument, seeing as it can only operate on a wholly superficial level external to the characterisation. It is an assumption derived from a technicality, superimposed onto the characters.

The potential of established characters being bisexual isn't quite the same thing. It is a potential based on a prevalent and legitimate possibility.

I do agree, however, that the game should be lucid in what adds up to romantic dialogue, so as to avoid possible ninjamances. Although frankly, I never thought that was very hard to avoid in the previous games.

There are no real valid points for changing or not changing the characters. To me it just makes more sense that characters just continue to be attracted to the gender they were previously. 

If they do "change" (find themselves) I'd want that change to be part of the story or atleast characters personal story. 

"General question: if a close friend of many years turned out to be bisexual, would you accuse him or her of not respecting integrity, continuity, and overall quality?"

*lol* ... Yeah ... a bit actually... 

Seriously though I have never experienced that. Most people I know that are into whatever found out a long looooong time ago. Earliest around the age of 6 and the latest around 30-35. The last eksample was from the time where it was quite unaccepted in society but mostly due to the fact that allmost noone knew anything about homosexuality (as a way of being). 

I'd say there is quite a bit of continuity for most people in my life in that area. 

Addition:

If the friend were that close I'm pretty sure that we would have worked out that persons sexual preferences years ago. *lol*

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 17 juin 2011 - 12:12 .

[Twilight_Princess]

LiquidGrape wrote...


The potential of established characters being bisexual isn't quite the same thing. It is a potential based on a prevalent and legitimate possibility.

 
and there are other possibilities that can be just as legitimate in that case , liara could end up preferring one sex over the other , a character could realize they are really asexual and don't want to be intimate with shep anymore. These all have potential too because they happen in real life as well.  

Modifié par Hyrule_Gal, 17 juin 2011 - 12:12 .

[keekee53]

mjb203 wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...

Question: if a close friend of many years turned out to be bisexual, would you accuse him or her of not respecting integrity, continuity, and overall quality?

This is why I will never understand the alleged "retcon" argument. If certain previous characters are elaborated upon, nothing is actually contradicted.
- There is nothing to contradict.

Many bring up the meta-perspective (e.g Kaidan can only be romanced by a female Shepard so far, therefore Kaidan can only be interested in female Shepard), but that doesn't add up to a very convincing argument, seeing as it can only operate on a wholly superficial level external to the characterisation. It is an assumption derived from a technicality, superimposed onto the characters.

No, but this is a game.  If Kaidan were to all of a sudden turn out to be interested in the same sex, first off, I would hope Bioware would really write that well and not make it seem like a tacked-on fan service like Anders seemed to be.  He also NEVER shows any romantic interest in a male Shepard.  I've also seen people throw around this meta- argument when talking about the Witcher 2 with things like "why can't Geralt have s/s relations?".  Like I said before, it's a can of worms for Bioware no matter which way they go.  That's why for ME3, I would like all romances to be player-Initiated only and have those choices be obvious romance choices.

New characters, no problem, as we are getting to know them.  Just because you may not see something as a retcon, doesn't mean others won't.  We just view the characters differently.  Hopefully, no matter what way Bioware decides to handle this, they do so tastefully.

Absolutely agree.  If I cannot have my button, at least make it player initiated only and make the choices obvious.

[LiquidGrape]

mjb203 wrote...

No, but this is a game.  If Kaidan were to all of a sudden turn out to be interested in the same sex, first off, I would hope Bioware would really write that well and not make it seem like a tacked-on fan service like Anders seemed to be.

I hope for well-written romances as well, although I never found Anders to be fan service. The closest to fan service the DA2 romances got in my eyes would be Fenris, who forayed into brooding boy territory a little too often for my tastes. 

He also NEVER shows any romantic interest in a male Shepard.  I've also seen people throw around this meta- argument when talking about the Witcher 2 with things like "why can't Geralt have s/s relations?".  Like I said before, it's a can of worms for Bioware no matter which way they go.  That's why for ME3, I would like all romances to be player-Initiated only and have those choices be obvious romance choices.

It's perfectly true Kaidan has never shown explicit interest, but my point is, there is still a potential there which cannot really be discounted.
As for Geralt, speaking as someone who've never played the Witcher games myself, he strikes me as a far more defined character than Shepard is ever likely to be. But like I said, I can't speak for it.

On the point of romances being player-initiated...I agree to an extent. I did like how DA2 handled the romantic aspect, allowing the player to show a playful interest in any given character, which would later elicit a confronation by the character in question.
I wouldn't want the LIs to be wholly passive, is my point. But as for allowing Shepard to make the first move, I think I can agree.

New characters, no problem, as we are getting to know them.  Just because you may not see something as a retcon, doesn't mean others won't.  We just view the characters differently.  Hopefully, no matter what way Bioware decides to handle this, they do so tastefully.

Perfectly true, and while I do not perceive the characters as being established in that sense, I respect anyone's right to perceive them as such. I simply do not agree with the reasoning.
But yes, I hope for many well-written and interesting romantic subplots in ME3.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 17 juin 2011 - 12:18 .

[jlb524]

Hyrule_Gal wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...


The potential of established characters being bisexual isn't quite the same thing. It is a potential based on a prevalent and legitimate possibility.

 
and there are other possibilities that can be just as legitimate in that case , liara could end up preferring one sex over the other , a character could realize they are really asexual and don't want to be intimate with shep anymore. These all have potential too because they happen in real life as well.  

Yus...and?

[LiquidGrape]

Troodon80 wrote...

General question: if a close friend of many years turned out to be bisexual, would you accuse him or her of not respecting integrity, continuity, and overall quality?

That would depend. In the end, however, no, I would not "accuse" anyone of anything.

Yeah, sorry about the hyperbole in that opening paragraph. It wasn't really intended to come off as so confrontational.

But, in the same regard, if a "close friend" were the type who tells you anything and everything (i.e. giving you a deep level of trust, etc), then, personally, I'd be a little put out that they didn't trust me enough to tell me, since we're "close friends" and all. Otherwise they are not close friends, they are ordinary friends or even acquaintances. Not that their sexual orientation was different from what I had perceived it to be, but rather that they didn't trust me.

Well, the friend in question might just have a particular preference, which effectively 'concealed' the wider spectrum of his or her sexuality? She never thought the matter important enough to make a big deal out of? Perhaps he struggled with the idea that the information might harm your relationship?

I realise this might appear as grasping at straws in the context of what we are discussing, but they are very real scenarios. And as such, I don't see how they cannot be relevant for fictional account.

P.S
I'm particularly fond of the first and middle one. It would be very welcome if sexuality wasn't rendered an issue in ME3.
D.S

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 17 juin 2011 - 12:27 .

[mjb203]

LiquidGrape wrote...

mjb203 wrote...

No, but this is a game.  If Kaidan were to all of a sudden turn out to be interested in the same sex, first off, I would hope Bioware would really write that well and not make it seem like a tacked-on fan service like Anders seemed to be.

I hope for well-written romances as well, although I never found Anders to be fan service. The closest to fan service the DA2 romances got in my eyes would be Fenris, who forayed into brooding boy territory a little too often for my tastes. 

He also NEVER shows any romantic interest in a male Shepard.  I've also seen people throw around this meta- argument when talking about the Witcher 2 with things like "why can't Geralt have s/s relations?".  Like I said before, it's a can of worms for Bioware no matter which way they go.  That's why for ME3, I would like all romances to be player-Initiated only and have those choices be obvious romance choices.

It's perfectly true Kaidan has never shown explicit interest, but my point is, there is still a potential there which cannot really be discounted.
As for Geralt, speaking as someone who've never played the Witcher games myself, he strikes me as a far more defined character than Shepard is ever likely to be. But like I said, I can't speak for it.

On the point of romances being player-initiated...I agree to an extent. I did like how DA2 handled the romantic aspect, allowing the player to show a playful interest in any given character, which would later elicit a confronation by the character in question.
I wouldn't want the LIs to be wholly passive, is my point. But as for allowing Shepard to make the first move, I think I can agree.

New characters, no problem, as we are getting to know them.  Just because you may not see something as a retcon, doesn't mean others won't.  We just view the characters differently.  Hopefully, no matter what way Bioware decides to handle this, they do so tastefully.

Perfectly true, and while I do not perceive the characters as being established in that sense, I respect anyone's right to perceive them as such. I simply do not agree with the reasoning.
But yes, I hope for many well-written and interesting romantic subplots in ME3.

It's good to see there is some common ground on both sides to build on.  Shepard should make the first move in any romance.  I too don't want LIs to be passive, but I also don't want the Normandy to turn into Love Boat in space.  The only problem I had with DA2 was playing a diplomatic male Hawke and then all of a sudden having 2 flirt options and a "GTFO" option with Anders.  That could have been handled in a much better way.  Hopefully the devs are looking through some of these suggestions and are able to take something away from it to make it work for everyone without having it feel like fan-service.

[Troodon80]

Yeah, sorry about the hyperbole in that opening paragraph. It wasn't really intended to come off as so confrontational.

Nothing to worry about.

Well, the friend in question might just have a particular preference, which effectively 'concealed' the wider spectrum of his or her sexuality? She never thought the matter important enough to make a big deal out of? Perhaps he struggled with the idea that the information might harm your relationship?

I realise this might appear as grasping at straws in the context of what we are discussing, but they are very real scenarios. And as such, I don't see how they cannot be relevant for fictional account.

Well, in the context of the real life, yes, those are issues. True.

In the context of the game, however, quotes like "no secrets from shipmates" (Tali) come up. A number of people hate her, a number of people like her, then there's others who want her to change because they now want to romance her, this is a likely occurrence of all previous characters' fanbase. True, they have been with Shepard through thick and thin. I'm not even saying that BioWare won't handle it well. I'm saying that for consistency with quotes like "no secrets from shipmates" then there shouldn't be secrets, and if, during the entire building of her character, she didn't at least make some mention that she wanted a romance with Shepard (and I don't just mean the linking suits thing, since that is a show of trust, not love), then it feels cheap to the character to now rewrite her. And if she, or indeed any other character, is bisexual, then why couldn't they have made that character bisexual when they were building their character during ME2 (or possibly ME1)? I would have been fine with knowing that [x] character was bisexual from the start, (and since I see a few comments about DA2, I'll make mention of that, too) much in the same way that DA2 was (apart from Anders who was in Awakening).

It just seems that, as other people have said, the ship has sailed relationship-wise.

I'm not saying that it can't happen and that if it does people are going to riot at BioWare in Edmonton, just that, in the interest of keeping most people happy, they should introduce a couple new characters. Who's to say they won't be well written and that you'll take an immediate liking to them (and I don't mean love at first sight, either, because that would seem cheap).

[lovgreno]

It could be a fail but generaly speaking BioWare writers do a good work when they take their time doing things and it seems like they want to learn from their own and others misstakes. Therefore I think they can make it good.

[JockBuster]

LiquidGrape wrote...

mjb203 wrote...
No, but this is a game.  If Kaidan were to all of a sudden turn out to be interested in the same sex, first off, I would hope Bioware would really write that well and not make it seem like a tacked-on fan service like Anders seemed to be.

He also NEVER shows any romantic interest in a male Shepard...  Like I said before, it's a can of worms for Bioware no matter which way they go.  That's why for ME3, I would like all romances to be player-Initiated only and have those choices be obvious romance choices.

It's perfectly true Kaidan has never shown explicit interest, but my point is, there is still a potential there which cannot really be discounted.
On the point of romances being player-initiated...I agree to an extent. I did like how DA2 handled the romantic aspect, allowing the player to show a playful interest in any given character, which would later elicit a confronation by the character in question.
I wouldn't want the LIs to be wholly passive, is my point. But as for allowing Shepard to make the first move, I think I can agree.
Perfectly true, and while I do not perceive the characters as being established in that sense, I respect anyone's right to perceive them as such. I simply do not agree with the reasoning.
But yes, I hope for many well-written and interesting romantic subplots in ME3.

First and foremost MaleShep saves Kaidan on Virmire.
ME1, ONLY FemSHep could romance AND turn KaidAn Renegade (best character in ME1)! Kaidan only shows "Art Appreciation towards Liara." He does NOT enter into sexual relations casually, but he also does not imply that he is closed to m/m relations, that is not discussed. ME1 did NOT allow for ANY human s/s relationships, it did allow for f/f Asari ('mono gendered', all amazon female race) and human. In ME1 there are some very special dialogue options (that could ? be some of he 500 data points) between MaleShep and Kaidan that "could open the door" in ME3, but those choices are quite specific, and if one chooses NOT to use them but pick other choices, might/may affect how LIs work out in ME3.

[Eurhetemec]

Precisely one good point has been made in the many pages of this lengthy thread - that being that with the way ME handles romances, which is to say, poorly and unintuitively (many non-romance options are actually romance-y or sexual-harassment-y, even - looking at you FemShep - stop hitting on poor Jacob!), they should probably consider adding some clarity to what constitutes a "romance" option and what constitutes a "tell me more about yourself" or a "let's be bros/bffs" option.

DA2, for all it's flaws, handled this really well. Heart means romance, broken heart means explicit rejection, other options you simply avoid the issue.

I doubt that ME3 will have something exactly like that, but if they could just mark or colour romance options (say, making them gold instead of white, or outlining them or something), then this whole thing would be a non-issue.

All the other arguments I'm seeing seem to be badly-supported opinion. I mean, Kaidan shows no romantic interest in MShep? Actually, he gives off some pretty strong vibes, because he was originally a romantic option for either, and they clearly didn't give him entirely separate reponses. So trying to say "OMG KAIDAN IS SO NOT INTO GUYS!!!!!!" (only with more words) is just silly. Equally, insisting that he definitely is, is pretty silly. Bioware can do what they want. If I find that Garrus, say, likes to fool around with MShep, well, so long as it's not mandatory to being friends with him, why would I care? He's still Garrus.

TLDR: all they need to do is flag romance options differently from other conversation options and ensure that you don't need to romance someone to be friends with them unless that's a major personality trait of theirs (like it was with Anders).

[Nashiktal]

jlb524 wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...

I agree that the game should be lucid in what adds up to romantic dialogue, so as tp avoid possible ninjamances. Although frankly, I never thought that was very hard to avoid in the previous games.

I've never had a problem...

It was worse in me1, but it still can happen in mw2. Don't be friendly to Jack  as a male for example, and avoid the top right dialogue for Miranda as well, and on a different but related note, everything sounds sexual with Jacob. (As female)

With everyone else you have a little more warning with the paraphrase wheels, but its still a clunky system that needs to be addressed. For all of the faults the icons had in DA2, romance was actually a good point about it.

I'm hoping they have romance specific dialogue or something to avoid ninjamance, or at the very least your squadmates don't clam up if you don't want in their pants. (Jack being the most immediate example. >.>)

[shepskisaac]

mjb203 wrote...
He also NEVER shows any romantic interest in a male Shepard.

Kaidan thinks Shep is straight, it's part of the story already, he says it to FemShep when she gets involved with Liara and imples he would never flirt with FemShep if he'd known she didn't like men. Thus the same applies for ManShep.

[Nashiktal]

IsaacShep wrote...

mjb203 wrote...
He also NEVER shows any romantic interest in a male Shepard.

Kaidan thinks Shep is straight, it's part of the story already, he says it to FemShep when she gets involved with Liara and imples he would never flirt with FemShep if he'd known she didn't like men. Thus the same applies for ManShep.

Not to mention its not the fact that squadmates arn't interested in the same sex, its the players inability to initiate the romance.

If I recall correctly Kaiden and Ashley were supposed to be S/S option before being cut, can't remember why though. Hell a good example is with Tali, she has all the same dialogue as a femshep all the way up to the point where you initiate the romance, you can even get her blushing the same way as male shep. Garrus is unintersted in the fact that femshep is a woman, since she is human not Turian. 

All thats missing is the player option. 

Modifié par Nashiktal, 17 juin 2011 - 05:45 .

[Niddy']

Same Sex people are just like talimancers, they won't be happy until everyone in the game turns gay.

[DocLasty]

IsaacShep wrote...

mjb203 wrote...
He also NEVER shows any romantic interest in a male Shepard.

Kaidan thinks Shep is straight, it's part of the story already, he says it to FemShep when she gets involved with Liara and imples he would never flirt with FemShep if he'd known she didn't like men. Thus the same applies for ManShep.

Maybe I'm slow, but you're going to have to explain that one to me.

Yes, Kaiden would never flirt with Femshep if he knew she was a lesbian...because there'd be no point. The flirting would go nowhere. By that same token, you could say he assumed Manshep was straight, and thus never flirted with him...because he thought there'd be no point.

[78stonewobble]

This is one big "no win" debate...

Every single person here have their own interpretation on which character could and/or should be what...

On the other hand it seems like pretty much everybody agrees that clearly marking what is a romance/non-romance conversation option would be nice.

Building consensus at sublight speeds is slow...

[Badpie]

Niddy' wrote...

Same Sex people are just like talimancers, they won't be happy until everyone in the game turns gay.

Yes because the goal here is to "turn people gay" and not at all about getting equal options.  Clearly those who support same sex romance want to TAKE EVERYTHING AWAY FROM YOU!  MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

No.

Just no.

[AngelicMachinery]

Badpie wrote...

Niddy' wrote...

Same Sex people are just like talimancers, they won't be happy until everyone in the game turns gay.

Yes because the goal here is to "turn people gay" and not at all about getting equal options.  Clearly those who support same sex romance want to TAKE EVERYTHING AWAY FROM YOU!  MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

No.

Just no.

Speak for yourself, I'm attempting to create a bisexual utopia. I will subjugate all unless they bow to my bisexual wrath.

[78stonewobble]

Badpie wrote...

Niddy' wrote...

Same Sex people are just like talimancers, they won't be happy until everyone in the game turns gay.

Yes because the goal here is to "turn people gay" and not at all about getting equal options.  Clearly those who support same sex romance want to TAKE EVERYTHING AWAY FROM YOU!  MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

No.

Just no.

Well to be fair if you change an ingame character more to your liking you're taking it further from what another person likes about the character.

If the characters had been gay/bi/straight but set from the start of the whole franchise it wouldn't have been a "problem". Now people are used to them as they "are" ... Or atleast how they've built them up in their mind.

[leggywillow]

LiquidGrape wrote...

General question: if a close friend of many years turned out to be bisexual, would you accuse him or her of not respecting integrity, continuity, and overall quality?

LOL

Friend:  I-I have to tell you something.  I think I'm gay.
BSN User: WHAT?!
Friend:  I hope you'll support me in this and--
BSNU: HOW COULD YOU RETCON YOURSELF LIKE THIS?!
Friend: ....what.
BSNU:  I thought you had more respect for continuity than that!  You never indicated in the past that you were gay!
Friend: Look, it's something I've been quietly thinking about for years--
BSNU: You destroyed your characterization.  EVERYTHING IS RUINED FOREVER.  WHO IS YOUR WRITER?!

Modifié par leggywillow, 17 juin 2011 - 07:04 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

leggywillow wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...

General question: if a close friend of many years turned out to be bisexual, would you accuse him or her of not respecting integrity, continuity, and overall quality?

LOL

Friend:  I-I have to tell you something.  I think I'm gay.
BSN User: WHAT?!
Friend:  I hope you'll support me in this and--
BSNU: HOW COULD YOU RETCON YOURSELF LIKE THIS?!
Friend: ....what.
BSNU:  I thought you had more respect for continuity than that!  You never indicated in the past that you were gay!
Friend: Look, it's something I've been quietly thinking about for years--
BSNU: You destroyed your characterization.  EVERYTHING IS RUINED FOREVER.  WHO IS YOUR WRITER?!

"WHERE IS YOUR TOGGLE"