517 réponses à ce sujet

[PlumPaul93]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...
This. Character consistency is way more important them romance IMO. Waits for "but they never said their straight bs".

It's not BS; it's simple fact.

What you're concerned about is your own personal perceived character consistency, not actual character consistency.

So characters not showing interest in shepard gay or straight through the 1st 2 games and then wanting to romance shepard in the last game wouldn't be out of character?

[LiquidGrape]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

There is no indication that they are bi.

Jack, when asked about previous relationships: "What, like a boyfriend or a girlfriend?"
Kaidan refers to the loss of Shepard as "losing a part of myself" or something to a similar effect.
There's also Tali's desire to link suits with a Shepard of either sex and Miranda's consummate involvement with the protagonist.

I'm not saying any of these suggestions say they are bisexual. What I'm saying is they can be perceived as indications, and there is no explicit mention which can contradict those indications should BioWare choose to elaborate on the characters.

People do tend to put way too much emphasis on sexuality in describing character.
What you have come to believe ideologically has no correlation with whose hips you'd like to straddle.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 15 juin 2011 - 03:10 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

So characters not showing interest in shepard gay or straight through the 1st 2 games and then wanting to romance shepard in the last game wouldn't be out of character?

Nope, not if the writers gave male Shepard the chance to actually flirt with Kaidan for once.

Male Shepard has never been given the option to flirt with other males, yet s/s options will be open to him in ME3.   Is that a break of character?

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 15 juin 2011 - 03:00 .

[ScotGaymer]

SennenScale wrote...

They were primarily ninjamancy for Male Shepard. Two out of the three Femshep Shepard romances in ME2 couldn't really be more obvious (Thane's "I want you", Garrus talking about working off stress through sex and Femshep saying "Work off stress together") and in ME1, Liara asks you about it.

Perhaps the writers just need to stop assuming you want to romance certain characters and let the player decide for themselves. Seemed like they really thought Femshep players should be into Jacob, and that was irritating. It would solve everybody's accidental romance issues if it was simply made clear what was going on, including the straight Shepards who aren't into the other LIs.

It's very curious that the ninjamances are brought up as a reason against S/S all the time when it's clearly more of an issue for female characters than male, though.

Yeah.

The assumption is fairly damaging.

Because of it I thoroughly dislike Jacob, Miranda, and Jack.

[elearon1]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

1) Then it's not really homophobia.

2) I have a problem with any of the current LIs becoming bi.

Yes it is.

It's just as damaging, hurtful, and wrong as outright hatred; in fact depending on who it comes from it can be more so than it being blatant hatred and fear.

No, it isn't.  Being uncomfortable around someone different from you isn't the same as being racist, homophobic, etc.  There are people who are uncomfortable around outgoing individuals ... that does not mean they hate or dispise those people, they simply don't know how to react around them - but, given the right situation, they might get along quite well.  It is quite easy to see how someone being introduced to a religion, sexuality, race, or personality type they are not familiar with will become uncomfortable - because they don't have experience with, or know how to properly respond to the social differences between them.  That can be as much about not wanting to offend the other person as it can about being put on guard yourself.  

That said, there ARE some misconceptions about other races, religions, sexuallities, that are prevelent in the media and easy for people with no familiarity to fall back on.  This does not mean they are biased, again, merely that they have been misinformed.  You cannot - CANNOT - be prejudice by accident;  (a prejudice is a conscious decision)  though you can demonstrate prejudicial behavior based on ignorance ... the difference being, the latter is an issue of familiarity, not hostility. (for a long time I was made uncomfortable by anyone new I met ... that did not mean I hated all people, merely that the unfamiliar made me uncomfotable - as it does most people, but for some to a greater extent than others)

Its like subscribing to and believing in negative racial stereotypes wholeheartedly (Like all muslims being suicide bombers); and avoiding or disliking said races because of those stereotypes.
You might claim you arent racist, and that it isnt racism because you dont "hate" black people, or asians, or whatever; but it still is. It's just a more insidious form of it.

It is nothing like that. (especially because of the bolded words: ignorance is not the same as "suscribing to and believing wholeheartedly")  If you are barraged by anti-muslim sentiments in the news after 911, and are told most muslims are radical extremists, you are going to be uncomfortable upon meeting a muslim you have no other information about.  So far as you know this guy COULD be just like all those things you've heard, but so long as you keep an open mind to the possibility that he, as a person, is not - you are not racist ... merely, perhaps, overcautious. (perhaps reactionary)

In fact, when I hear someone say, "anyone who doesn't instantly understand and accept me is a racist/homophobe/anti-semetic/whathaveyou", I am far more inclined to perceive the bias and irrational behavior is coming from them.  Where I am still leaving room to be informed, they are instantly labeling me with a strongly derogative and offensive term. 

As a last example: Most men are uncomfortable when meeting a beautiful woman for the first time - this does not indicate they are prejudice against beautiful women, merely that they are made initially uncomfortable by them. (often because they aren't sure how to react around them and/or are simultenously intrigued and intimidated by them)  In general, however, it doesn't take long for the man to overcome that initial response and start acting like an idiot in an effort to get that woman's attention/approval. 

Modifié par elearon1, 15 juin 2011 - 02:59 .

[PlumPaul93]

Mash Mashington wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...


So characters not showing interest in shepard gay or straight through the 1st 2 games and then wanting to romance shepard in the last game wouldn't be out of character?

it would be as much OOC as Tali not showing interest in Shepard in ME1 and then suddenly developing hero crush on him

And? I don't believe I ever stated I approved of it. I honestly didn't like either of the tali and garrus becoming romance options because they never stated in the 1st game turians and quarians could have relations with humans and just said ya it's all good.

[ScotGaymer]

Id respond Elaeron but I really dont want to derail this thread any further.

Lets stay on topic shall we?


@Plum.

Actually. It was established in the first game in the lore that Turians and Quarians were NOT sexually compatible with Humans due to their different type of DNA.
It was actually outright retconned in the second game to allow the Garrus and Tali LIs.

Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 15 juin 2011 - 03:04 .

[PlumPaul93]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Id respond Elaeron but I really dont want to derail this thread any further.

Lets stay on topic shall we?

Way past that point I'm guessing this threads fate is sealed.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...
So characters not showing interest in shepard gay or straight through the 1st 2 games and then wanting to romance shepard in the last game wouldn't be out of character?

Not necessarily out of character, no.

Firstly I will bring up Tali and Garrus in ME2.  They were not interested in Shepard in ME1, but I do not deem their actions in ME2 out of character.

Secondly I will explain to you a few simple facts about romance.

Fact 1: Relationships develop over time.
I'm sure we've all seen this.  Sometimes you're friends with someone for a long time before a romance develops with them.  Sometime you know them, maybe you're not friends, but one day you see them in a different light due to something they said, something they did, or merely a simple reanalysis of them as a person.

Fact 2: Bisexuals do not always like both genders in the exact same way.
Some bisexuals favor a certain gender.  Some bisexuals take more time when establishing a romantic relationship with a particular gender.  Ashley could always have been bisexual with a stronger leaning towards men.  Maybe she just finds relationships with men easier and, even though she likes femShep, she wasn't as willing to start a romantic relationship with her at the time of ME1.

Fact 3: Sometimes heterosexuals do experiment; sometimes heterosexuals do not fully know themselves.
Even if Ashley or Kaidan did identify as heterosexuals in ME1 it does not mean they can never and will never come to the realization that they might be bisexual later on.  Or they could deny it.

Any of these facts could be applied to Ashley, Kaidan, or any existing LI and they'd still be perfectly in character.  Your problem is that you're deciding their sexuality for them.  You see that Ashley started a relationship with dudeShep in ME1 and then apply the metagame knowledge that she wouldn't do the same with femShep at the time and call that proof that she's straight when it, plan and simple, is not proof.

[Rinji the Bearded]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

And? I don't believe I ever stated I approved of it. I honestly didn't like either of the tali and garrus becoming romance options because they never stated in the 1st game turians and quarians could have relations with humans and just said ya it's all good.

So it could be assumed that the writers, for purpose of choice, could suddenly make a previously "straight" male LI fall in love with Shepard, much like an alien dropping their species barrier to fall in love with Shepard?

In the end, people may or may not like it... but it could happen.

[Neria Rose]

LiquidGrape wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

There is no indication that they are bi.

Jack, when asked about previous relationships: "What, like a boyfriend or a girlfriend?"
There's also Tali's desire to link suits with a Shepard of either sex, and Miranda's consummate involvement with the protagonist.

I'm not saying any of these suggestions say they are bisexual. What I'm saying is they can be perceived as indications, and there is no explicit mention which can contradict those indications should BioWare choose to elaborate on the characters.

People do tend to put way too much emphasis on sexuality in describing character.
What you have come to believe ideologically has no correlation with whose hips you'd like to straddle.

I have nothing to add here except to say I agree with you and, perhaps just as importantly, I love your avatar, LiquidGrape.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...
There is no indication that they are bi.

Tali never showed any indication that she was into humans.
Garrus never showed any indication that he was into humans.

People do not have to drop hints in order for their sexuality to be believable.

[PlumPaul93]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Id respond Elaeron but I really dont want to derail this thread any further.

Lets stay on topic shall we?


@Plum.

Actually. It was established in the first game in the lore that Turians and Quarians were NOT sexually compatible with Humans due to their different type of DNA.
It was actually outright retconned in the second game to allow the Garrus and Tali LIs.

Then that's stupid and wrong. I don't like it when lore or things like that get changed just because people want things to be a certain way.

[Bolboreta]

Please, do not start another flame war This thread could be closed and we cannot discuss these aspects in the "fight for the love" thread.

I consider sexuality a main aspect of every person in the world and I like to see that reflected in the games I play. I never was uncomfortable with Leliana's or Zevran's bisexuality. Also, I never was uncomfortable with the fact that we could only romance Morrigan or Alistair if we were from a certain gender. It's more realistic that way: we cannot romance everyone just because we want. I want that in Mass Effect: differences. I want to play as a male to romance certain characters, as a female to romance other ones, and I want s/s romances, bi romances and everything.

I admit we cannot establish for sure the sexuality of every ME character, but some of them have hinted us: Jack said she is not "into the girl club", Garrus blew off steam with a female before, Kaidan talked about a girl he loved... Of course people can change (or be bi from the beginning), but I think discovering their sexuality after so many years would be weird.

Everyone has its own game and vision, but I think we all can discuss it without labeling everyone.

[PlumPaul93]

iriotboy wrote...

wow....sad forum post is sad...
seriously, what should anybody care about someone's sexual orientation, it's none of anybodies business anyway. the sooner you homophobes grow up, the better
I just saw in the news yesterday that there was counselling for homosexuals who want to turn heterosexual... WOW! having a different sexuality shouldn't mean you're an outcast or it's forbidden...shame on the churches too for denying homosexuals the right to get married (WHICH IS A HUMAN RIGHT) and denying them the right to have sex

you obviously didn't read most of this thread.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Tali never showed any indication that she was into humans.
Garrus never showed any indication that he was into humans.

People do not have to drop hints in order for their sexuality to be believable.

Garrus definitely wasn't into humans, but can potentially be REALLY into Shepard, so him dropping his species barrier for Shepard indicates that the same could be done to make s/s LIs.  It's actually not my preferred way to approach it, but ... there you have it.

[elearon1]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

I agree with everything in this post.  In fact, I was just about to make most of these same arguments, but was beaten to it. 

[Pups_of_war_76]

No.