144 réponses à ce sujet

[Brockololly]

Loghain is always right.

/thread

[Mickespel]

He could have been, we must remember that Logain, not being a grey warden sincerely believed that they where just fighting a larger darkspawn raid rather then a true Blight. We also have the incident at the Wardens Keep where grey wardens actually abandoned their neutrality and thus, the order could do so again. That is a good reason not to trust Orleasian grey wardens, he could not trust their neutrality.

[Zjarcal]

Brockololly wrote...

Loghain is always right.

/thread

One of the few times I agree with Brock 100%. 

[LobselVith8]

Hanz54321 wrote...

If you made Alistair king in the last game, you get to speak with him in this one.  He and Teagan both speak of the likelihood that Orlais will try to retake Fereldan.

Not to mention the letters in RtO where it turns out that the weak King Cailan was going to marry Empress Celene I, and practically hand over the nation of Ferelden.

Hanz54321 wrote...

Now of course Loghain picked a bad time to pursue the course of action he did when he did.  Help was needed to stop the Blight and certainly not a civil war.

Historically, Orlais used the Blight to take over the nation of Nevarra (a nation Orlais helped, and then helped themselves to after the Third Blight was over), so Loghain had every right to be wary of the Orlesian troops.

Hanz54321 wrote...

But . . . does DA2 redeem him in a sense?  He suspected the Orlesians would not leave once they got a foothold in Fereldan again.  He suspected Celene of trying to rule through Cailan by tricking him into some sort of treaty.  Was the man right?

Loghain was right. I anticipate having Loghain become a Grey Warden who is stationed at the heart of the Orlesian Empire is going to be a serious problem for them if Orlesian noblility try to usurp control of Ferelden again.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yea he was right. I wouldn't give him that much credit however, anyone with his head on straight and knows what he is talking about can realize that Orlais has interests in Ferelden, so they are going to spread their influence, one way or the other.

That doesn't prevent Loghain from being a bad politician however. But he does grasp the strategic and geo-political picture I think.

[Wulfram]

He was right in the same way Senator McCarthy was right about communists being a threat to America.

[lobi]

Yes Loghain was right .

Wulfram wrote...

He was right in the same way Senator McCarthy was right about communists being a threat to America.

You are thinking of Eamon perhaps?

Modifié par lobi, 15 juin 2011 - 04:09 .

[Forst1999]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hanz54321 wrote...

But . . . does DA2 redeem him in a sense?  He suspected the Orlesians would not leave once they got a foothold in Fereldan again.  He suspected Celene of trying to rule through Cailan by tricking him into some sort of treaty.  Was the man right?

Loghain was right. I anticipate having Loghain become a Grey Warden who is stationed at the heart of the Orlesian Empire is going to be a serious problem for them if Orlesian noblility try to usurp control of Ferelden again.

Well, Grey Wardens are supposed to be neutral. So i don't think he would be that great a problem. Even if he would decide to ignore the neutrality, the other Wardens probably wouldn't. He would be alone.
The current situation in Orlais isn't quite as bad as some paint it. Not all of the country wants to reconquer Ferelden, the Empress herself has no intention to do it, but wants to ease tensions. There are reasons to be concerned, but Loghain's way, constant confrontation with Orlais and refusal on any cooperation won't solve any problems. To make and preserve peace you have to look forward. Loghain's fears aren't completly unreasonable, but his politics were.
On the possible marriage of Cailan and Celene: A peaceful unification of countries isn't the same thing as conquest. Some might say that Cailan was weak for delivering Ferelden back to Orlais, others might say he was a visionary for trying to unite to old enemies to a great power. Without knowing the formalities of the possible laison, we can't really judge that.

Modifié par Forst1999, 15 juin 2011 - 04:21 .

[LobselVith8]

Forst1999 wrote...

Well, Grey Wardens are supposed to be neutral.

Technically, they are, but even The Warden was political in choosing rulers for Orzammar and Ferelden, and potentially becoming the new Arl of Amaranthine, even as a mage.

Forst1999 wrote...

So i don't think he would be that great a problem. Even if he would decide to ignore the neutrality, the other Wardens probably wouldn't. He would be alone.

What about the Warden-Commander of Ferelden, if it's the Hero of Ferelden?

Forst1999 wrote...

The current situation in Orlais isn't quite as bad as some paint it. Not all of the country wants to reconquer Ferelden, the Empress herself has no intention to do it, but wants to ease tensions. There are reasons to be concerned, but Loghain's way, constant confrontation with Orlais and refusal on any cooperation won't solve any problems. To make and preserve peace you have to look forward. Loghain's fears aren't completly unreasonable, but his politics were.

Orlais has been conquering nations since it's inception under Emperor Drakon I, when he was merely a King of the city-state.

Forst1999 wrote...

On the possible marriage of Cailan and Celene: A peaceful unification of countries isn't the same thing as conquest. Some might say that Cailan was weak for delivering Ferelden back to Orlais, others might say he was a visionary for trying to unite to old enemies to a great power. Without knowing the formalities of the possible laison, we can't really judge that.

A visionary? King Cailan wasn't ruling the nation even when he was King, Queen Anora was.

[Forst1999]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...

Well, Grey Wardens are supposed to be neutral.

Technically, they are, but even The Warden was political in choosing rulers for Orzammar and Ferelden, and potentially becoming the new Arl of Amaranthine, even as a mage.

Forst1999 wrote...

So i don't think he would be that great a problem. Even if he would decide to ignore the neutrality, the other Wardens probably wouldn't. He would be alone.

What about the Warden-Commander of Ferelden, if it's the Hero of Ferelden?

Forst1999 wrote...

The current situation in Orlais isn't quite as bad as some paint it. Not all of the country wants to reconquer Ferelden, the Empress herself has no intention to do it, but wants to ease tensions. There are reasons to be concerned, but Loghain's way, constant confrontation with Orlais and refusal on any cooperation won't solve any problems. To make and preserve peace you have to look forward. Loghain's fears aren't completly unreasonable, but his politics were.

Orlais has been conquering nations since it's inception under Emperor Drakon I, when he was merely a King of the city-state.

Forst1999 wrote...

On the possible marriage of Cailan and Celene: A peaceful unification of countries isn't the same thing as conquest. Some might say that Cailan was weak for delivering Ferelden back to Orlais, others might say he was a visionary for trying to unite to old enemies to a great power. Without knowing the formalities of the possible laison, we can't really judge that.

A visionary? King Cailan wasn't ruling the nation even when he was King, Queen Anora was.

1. The Hero of Ferelden's political involvement was necessary to stop the blight. Becoming the Arl of Amaranthine was unusual, but it still is Warden buisiness. If Loghain would use his position to defend his homeland against anything other than the Darkspawn, that wouldn't be Warden buisiness.
2. Hard to say. Half the Origins aren't Fereldans, the Mage's loyalties might shift during the current mage rebellion. Not to say that the Warden-Commander wouldn't ignore the neutrality to defend Ferelden, but you can't count on it.
3. That doesn't rule out peaceful coexistence or partnership. Without trying, you can't change international relationships. Constant confrontation a la Loghain would for sure some day lead to hostilities.
4. "Visionary" was one of two extremes i offered.  I just don't think it is fair to accuse him of selling out Ferelden. He wasn't a strong ruler, but he was ready to make peace and reacted fast to the blight. Give him at least some credit.

Modifié par Forst1999, 15 juin 2011 - 04:44 .

[Wulfram]

As far as I can see, the Warden Commander is obliged to defend Fereldan as part of their duties as Arl/Arlessa of Amaranthine. Though the rest of the Order would be expected to stay neutral.

[dragonflight288]

The way I see it, Loghain was correct in the fact that I don't see Orlais leaving Ferelden unless all the Chevalier's were killed. I honestly think Orlais would try and conquer Ferelden if given the chance. Heck, even the Codex entry that talks about the naming of the Dragon Age said it may have even been the Divine naming the age as a way of supporting Orlais in the war against Ferelden, since the dragon was part of the crest of the Orlesian lord leading them in Ferelden.

Where I think he was wrong was his policies, such as selling elves into tevinter as slaves, allowing Rendon Howe to massacre the Couslands out of jealousy and then proceed to torture nobles who knew the withdrawal at Ostagar happened before the King could be saved. Poisoning Eamon, and denying grey wardens from entering. I suppose the problem was that the Grey Wardens entering Ferelden were accompanied by four legions of Chevaliers.

Chevaliers are used to getting their way, allowed to even rape people should they desire to simply because of their station. I don't know if they would be willing to throw away that kind of power over people to obey Fereldan's laws.

I just don't trust Orlais, but without seeing more on Cailan and Celene's marriage discussions, I can't say anything about that.

[Iosev]

If I recall correctly, Loghain initially did not believe that the resurgence of the darkspawn was a Blight (i.e., no Archdemon), which helped him rationalize that Orlais was the more immediate threat, which proved to be wrong.

Modifié par arcelonious, 15 juin 2011 - 05:04 .

[Rifneno]

Loghain was a nutjob.  The fact that Orlesian nobles are douchebags in no way redeems him for his countless crimes.  He was incapable of seeing anything but Orlais as a threat, and his retardation is the reason that Ferelden was weakened enough for Orlais to actually be an immediate threat again.  This is pretty much the opposite of redeeming him, it's just his lunacy haunting Ferelden from beyond the grave.

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...


Not to mention the letters in RtO where it turns out that the weak King Cailan was going to marry Empress Celene I, and practically hand over the nation of Ferelden.
 

Celene actually wants Ferelden to be independent. She's not the problem. The other nobility in Orlais are. Celene's working to resolve the problem as Alistair said.

She wanted an alliance between the two nations. She didn't want to conquer them.

Though Cailan's marriage to her probably wouldn't have been a good idea I think. Alliance yes, marriage no given Orlais' history and how the nobles treated Fereldans.

Historically, Orlais used the Blight to take over the nation of Nevarra (a nation Orlais helped, and then helped themselves to after the Third Blight was over), so Loghain had every right to be wary of the Orlesian troops.

Don't forget after the 2nd Blight that almost wiped them out they took the Dales back.

Loghain was right. I anticipate having Loghain become a Grey Warden who is stationed at the heart of the Orlesian Empire is going to be a serious problem for them if Orlesian noblility try to usurp control of Ferelden again.

He was right and wrong really. He thought the troops Empress Celene was sending over would be the start of an invasion, when almost all of them were Grey Wardens. They wouldn't have been a threat to Ferelden. Still, his paranoia was justified given Orlais' history. I always let him live these days. Alistair will thank me one day I'm sure.


I'm expecting him to renounce his Warden Oath and return to Ferelden to defend it from the Orlesians should an invasion actually occur.

[Mickespel]

Wulfram wrote...

As far as I can see, the Warden Commander is obliged to defend Fereldan as part of their duties as Arl/Arlessa of Amaranthine. Though the rest of the Order would be expected to stay neutral.

The majority of the troops under the Warden Commanders command are not grey wardens, just normal fereldan soldiers and are thus indeed expected to do their part to defend the country. For those few who actually are grey wardens, neutrality are needed, to an extent, those cannot be sent of to reinforce Fereldens war effort somewhere. I see no problem with them helping police the Amaranthine region thou as long as they willingly continue their vigilance against the darkspawn even if the keep fell to a forign invader.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


He was right and wrong really. He thought the troops Empress Celene was sending over would be the start of an invasion, when almost all of them were Grey Wardens. They wouldn't have been a threat to Ferelden. Still, his paranoia was justified given Orlais' history. I always let him live these days. Alistair will thank me one day I'm sure.

What about his own citizens that he sold into Tevinter slavery? Will they thank him too? If Maric were still around, would he thank him for killing one his sons and trying his damnedest to kill another? The Southern Ferelden territories that fell while he was too busy glaring at Orlais to see an archdemon at his back? Howe's many victims for which Loghain protected him?

A quick death is far, far more mercy than Loghain deserves.

[Cutlass Jack]

Rifneno wrote...

A quick death is far, far more mercy than Loghain deserves.

I disagree. He earned that quick death.

But I must agree with you on the rest.

[sphinxess]

Rifneno wrote...

Loghain was a nutjob.  The fact that Orlesian nobles are douchebags in no way redeems him for his countless crimes.  He was incapable of seeing anything but Orlais as a threat, and his retardation is the reason that Ferwldan was weakened enough for Orlais to actually be an immediate threat again.  This is pretty much the opposite of redeeming him, it's just his lunacy haunting Ferelden from beyond the grave.

Of course you could argue that if Loghain hadn't abandoned that idiot king to his fate at Ostagar the main army of Fereldan would have been wiped out - Fereldan would have been overun and it would have been up to Orlais to defeat the blight <and repopulate Fereldan>

Modifié par sphinxess, 15 juin 2011 - 05:58 .

[Forst1999]

sphinxess wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Loghain was a nutjob.  The fact that Orlesian nobles are douchebags in no way redeems him for his countless crimes.  He was incapable of seeing anything but Orlais as a threat, and his retardation is the reason that Ferwldan was weakened enough for Orlais to actually be an immediate threat again.  This is pretty much the opposite of redeeming him, it's just his lunacy haunting Ferelden from beyond the grave.

Of course you could argue that if Loghain hadn't abandoned that idiot king to his fate at Ostagar the main army of Fereldan would have been wiped out - Fereldan would have been overun and it would have been up to Orlais to defeat the blight <and repopulate Fereldan>

Or you could argue that that just was an excuse. Ser Cauthrien was very surprised when he ordered the retreat (well she isn't a strategist like Loghain, but at least it shows that the battle wasn't obviously lost). Much to argue about, but we're moving away from the topic.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wulfram wrote...

As far as I can see, the Warden Commander is obliged to defend Fereldan as part of their duties as Arl/Arlessa of Amaranthine. Though the rest of the Order would be expected to stay neutral.

Any Arl or Bann is free to decide wether or not to send troops to the king's army. Not to send troops is usually a bad political decision however. But since Grey Wardens are supposed to be neutral, they could undoubtably avoid sending troops. And I can imagine Orlais exluding Amaranthine from their conquest to avoid antagonizing the Wardens.
By the end of the day, it really depends on how you RP'ed your Wardens. Most of the ones I've played, didn't feel any overall loyalty to Ferelden since their initiation into the Wardens. Their loyalties are with the Wardens and their principles.

[Wulfram]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Any Arl or Bann is free to decide wether or not to send troops to the king's army.

Really?  That isn't the impression I've got.  The Codex on Ferelden politics says

"Teyrns arose from amongst the banns, warleaders who, in antiquity,
had grown powerful enough to move other banns to swear fealty to them.
There were many teyrns in the days before King Calenhad, but he
succeeded in whittling them down to only two: Gwaren in the south,
Highever in the north. These teyrns still hold the oaths of banns and
arls who they may call upon in the event of war or disaster, and
similarly, the teyrns still hold responsibility for defending those
sworn to them.


The arls were established by the teyrns, given command of strategic
fortresses that could not be overseen by the teyrns themselves. Unlike
the teyrns, the arls have no banns sworn to them, and are simply
somewhat more prestigious banns.


The king is, in essence, the most powerful of the teyrns. Although
Denerim was originally the teyrnir of the king, it has since been
reduced to an arling, as the king's domain is now all of Ferelden. But
even the king's power must come from the banns."

By my interpretation, the Arl of Amaranthine is a vassal of the Teyrn of Highever, and as such would be obliged to follow him in the event of war, as the Teyrn would be obliged to follow the King.

[Addai]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


Not to mention the letters in RtO where it turns out that the weak King Cailan was going to marry Empress Celene I, and practically hand over the nation of Ferelden.
 

Celene actually wants Ferelden to be independent. She's not the problem. The other nobility in Orlais are. Celene's working to resolve the problem as Alistair said.

Eh.  Celene is ruthless in her own way- assassinated her way to the top, for instance- and trusting in her supposed benevolence would be foolish.  She's shrewd and probably would govern Ferelden much better than Meghren and the other nutters did under the occupation, but whether that is a good or bad for Ferelden depends, I guess, on how highly you value Fereldan independence.  Me... I'm with William Wallace and Loghain on that subject.  Freeeedom!

Cailan might have thought Ferelden would come out on top in such a marriage alliance, but let's face it, he'd get pwned by Celene big time.  And then there's the question of what happens when Celene's successor turns out to be not so nice and you already have chevaliers again on Fereldan soil.

He was right and wrong really. He thought the troops Empress Celene was sending over would be the start of an invasion, when almost all of them were Grey Wardens.

There were four legions of chevaliers, as I recall, and 100-200 Wardens.  Far more chevaliers than Wardens.

[Dragonella1]

 
Well, one doesn’t have to be a great strategist or suffer from paranoia to see that some aristocrats in Orlais would demand to start war with Ferelden, for example these that lost their lands in Feralden given them by previous Emperor. Celene doesn’t want to invade Ferelden because she's a reasonable ruler. Poor, weaken and partially covered with taint Ferelden is no problem for Orlais – Navarra is. Getting back rich territoriess that Orlais lost to Navarra should be at the top of Orais to-do-list, before Navarra became too strong and potential thread to Orlais. But as Orlais aristocracy seems to have free access to Kirkwall water  there probably would be war between Orlais and Feraldon soon.