If I recall correctly, Loghain initially did not believe that the resurgence of the darkspawn was a Blight (i.e., no Archdemon), which helped him rationalize that Orlais was the more immediate threat, which proved to be wrong.
Yes, no one really knew for sure. You get the archdemon cutscene after 3 ally quests and it's only then that Alistair says "well now we know for sure, this is really a Blight." Duncan suspected it, but how much weight can you put on one man's gut feeling?
In the forums DG said that part of Loghain's unwillingness to believe that it was a Blight was that if Flemeth's prophecy about that was true, her other prophecy that he would betray Maric might also be true.
Of course you could argue that if Loghain hadn't abandoned that idiot king to his fate at Ostagar the main army of Fereldan would have been wiped out - Fereldan would have been overun and it would have been up to Orlais to defeat the blight <and repopulate Fereldan>
"Divide and conquer" means dividing the enemy's forces, not your own. Assuming the darkspawn horde at Ostagar was as massive as the quest giver for RtO thinks, then dividing up the nation's forces so the Blight could have chewy bite-sized pieces that won't even hurt its jaw muscles is... indescribably stupid. Well, assuming that the leader in question doesn't have a larger plan to take the enemy by means other than brute force, but that wasn't the case. The paranoid-delusional fool didn't even believe there was a threat because it didn't have a French accent.
Cailan was dumb. Loghain was far dumber. While we're at it, Maric was pretty dumb for dismissing Flemeth's warnings about Loghain.
The real idiot was Duncan and the Grey Wardens who didn't tell anybody anything about the Grey Warden's capabilities (sensing it's a Blight and such) and how they were the only ones who could kill the Archdemon should it appear.
Trusting the monarchy to warn them that hell is about to break loose is better than not trusting them and have Ostagar happen with the Grey Wardens hunted down.
Somtimes I let Lohgain live but he is a traitor he abandoned troops and let people die, he just saw an opportunity for a power grab and took it he's just crazed in his head and the stuff about Orlais is him just trying to convince himself. He's a bad guy
As others have said, you don't have to be any kind of military genius to see that Orlais likes to conquer other nations when they see an opportunity. Making that easier for them by feeding the main Ferelden army to the darkspawn because he didn't trust his king isn't a great way to protect the country though.
Not that I particularly agree with monarchy as a good system of government, but you don't get out of being a traitor to your king just by seeing Orlais for what it has always been. And being Captain Obvious where Orlais is concerned doesn't forgive his many many other actions.
No they don't. Were I Loghain, I'd have arcers, trebuche's, catapults, ballistae on the walls of Ostagar and start shooting the moment the darkspawn came out of the wilds. And the very moment lower chambers were discovered, have them sealed off, especially when there are soldiers who say they don't remember there being lower chambers. And when Orlais showed up, put them on the front line of the blight.
Granted, most knights and banns didn't even believe there was a blight to fight. Just a large darkspawn raid. Even Cailan doubted it was a blight.
I was under the impression that Cailan was confident it was a Blight, he jsut appeared like it wasn't to highten the morale of his men. The king's man in RtO says that Cailan knew that there would be no victory at Ostagar, due to the sheer size of the Darkspawn army. (on a side note: You might want to replace all those siege weapons wth additional archers, since they are far more cost effective)
He was right and wrong really. He thought the troops Empress Celene was sending over would be the start of an invasion, when almost all of them were Grey Wardens. They wouldn't have been a threat to Ferelden. Still, his paranoia was justified given Orlais' history. I always let him live these days. Alistair will thank me one day I'm sure.
What about his own citizens that he sold into Tevinter slavery? Will they thank him too? If Maric were still around, would he thank him for killing one his sons and trying his damnedest to kill another? The Southern Ferelden territories that fell while he was too busy glaring at Orlais to see an archdemon at his back? Howe's many victims for which Loghain protected him?
A quick death is far, far more mercy than Loghain deserves.
I don't condone any of Loghain's actions, however much he tries to justify them. His paranoia twisted his mind so much that he did horrible things all because he feared the Orlesians more than the Darkspawn.
What pisses me off is not only how he left his king to die when the battle could've been won (see here: you can see troops in the far back all moving to the right, not just the ones up front), but also how the "greatest military general and tactician in all of Ferelden" didn't even bother to think up a few strategies and bring more war equipment. Either he deliberately didn't set up a decent strategy, or he sucks at being a tactician. As the latter is not likely given what he did, he's just a dick.
Regardless of that, I would've done some things to ensure victory:
set up fortifications and have a row of crossbowmen up front, with rows of archers behind them firing enchanted arrows into the sky. The archers and crossbow men would be protected by a separation barrier type thing. The same type the Dalish used in the random encounter.
I would've demanded that the Chantry give more than just 7 mages. I would've taken no less 35. Then, I would instruct them to call blizzards, tempests, and fireballs and just any other AoE spell they could muster. Likewise I'd ask for some Tranquil to enchant weapons.
I would've sealed up the Tower of Ishal immediately. Investigating the lower chambers can come after there isn't a battle looming overhead. When the soldier first told me they were investigating them, I facepalmed. I just knew the darkspawn would find a way into the Tower. And I was right! Sodding bunch of idiots....
I would've brought more than 6 ballistae (I think that's how many they brought). If Ferelden has catapults, I'd bring them too.
I'd also ask some mercenary companies to help out, if I could spare the money (assuming they're charging). Otherwise, sod off.
And while I dislike using dogs for war, I would use Mabari.
Those are only some things. But we're not here to talk how I'd be a general.
Actually..... I might've just set the whole forest on fire.
Anyway, while I will never anything Loghain or Howe did, I still let him live. And if Maric was still alive, Cailan wouldn't be king. Maric would be. And Loghain respects Maric, and would never betray him were Maric on the field. And I can only assume he would be.
At the very least I want to see if he's as good a tactician as his reputation claims should he help defend Ferelden again from Orlais. If his tactics suck, I'll kill him off every time. Metagaming man, it works.
The reason why I spare him though is because it's a Blight, and I roleplay my Wardens to think that they can't afford to be picky. While they think they probably could win without his help, we need every capable person we can find.
Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 juin 2011 - 08:59 .
I don't think enchanted weapons are common, nor taht they are easy enough to make that any military leader can "demand" them to be massproduced. Nor is more than seven mages neccesarily a good thing. As soon as the battlelines clash, all of the mages AoEs are useless, and they are reduced in their capabilities, and they put an additional threat to the army, like it or not. Also, maybe seven amges were all who volunteered.
Perhaps the lower chambers were closed off immediately after having been explored, but the Darkspawn dug their way through it.
Seige weapons were highly ineffective at killing personel, comapred to the manpower needed to operate them. The ca. six men needed to operate a catapult, would kill far more targets if they were using a bow each.
We can't know for sure wether or not any mercenaries were involved. And they did use Mabari.
I know they used Mabari. I'm just saying that while I personally dislike using dogs for war, I would use Mabari.
And I don't remember them having a palisade. It just seemed like the archers were firing with no protection in front of them (thank you for the word though, I was drawing a blank).
I would order the mages to cast AoE spells BEFORE the soldiers charged in. I mean, that's basic dude. Once the soldiers clashed with the horde, I'd order them to stop and just cast basic spells.
And the only mercenaries I saw were the Ash Warriors, if they even were mercenaries.
I'm really starting to hate the BSN now because it keeps logging me out.....
EDIT: It looks like their palisade was just a giant wooden beam in front of them resting on some other things. I'd hardly call that effective.
Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 juin 2011 - 09:14 .
Of course you could argue that if Loghain hadn't abandoned that idiot king to his fate at Ostagar the main army of Fereldan would have been wiped out - Fereldan would have been overun and it would have been up to Orlais to defeat the blight <and repopulate Fereldan>
"Divide and conquer" means dividing the enemy's forces, not your own. Assuming the darkspawn horde at Ostagar was as massive as the quest giver for RtO thinks, then dividing up the nation's forces so the Blight could have chewy bite-sized pieces that won't even hurt its jaw muscles is... indescribably stupid. Well, assuming that the leader in question doesn't have a larger plan to take the enemy by means other than brute force, but that wasn't the case. The paranoid-delusional fool didn't even believe there was a threat because it didn't have a French accent.
Cailan was dumb. Loghain was far dumber. While we're at it, Maric was pretty dumb for dismissing Flemeth's warnings about Loghain.
I guess I forgot to make it clear I see no signs that Loghain came up with that battle plan. Right from having the lighting of a tower becon being the single way to get the renforcements to charge to having the archers in the front lines the plan was doomed. I assumed its something the idiot king came up with to make him look like a hero.
I know they used Mabari. I'm just saying that while I personally dislike using dogs for war, I would use Mabari.
And I don't remember them having a palisade. It just seemed like the archers were firing with no protection in front of them (thank you for the word though, I was drawing a blank).
I would order the mages to cast AoE spells BEFORE the soldiers charged in. I mean, that's basic dude. Once the soldiers clashed with the horde, I'd order them to stop and just cast basic spells.
And the only mercenaries I saw were the Ash Warriors, if they even were mercenaries.
I'm really starting to hate the BSN now because it keeps logging me out.....
EDIT: It looks like their palisade was just a giant wooden beam in front of them resting on some other things. I'd hardly call that effective.
I don't think they had anything immediately in front of them (the archers), but that is because the melee soldiers would advance to the front after a few vollies, and would need a clearing for their charge, ie. no palisades on the front. However the flanks did seem barricaded. The problem with the mages is, that it is for an extrmely limited time window that they would be able to cast their AoE spells, such a limited time window that I doubt more than 7 mages would even be a benefit (if we ignore the fact that 7 might be all which volunteered), and I don't know how effective the smaller scale magic is in combat (ie. the non-AoEs). We weren't in the army's main encampment, so what we saw was an extremely limited view of the forces at Ostagar, chances are that a few mercenaries were involved at least. Or perhaps none. But it won't really matter I guess.
Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 15 juin 2011 - 09:36 .
The archers had no soldiers in front of them at all, so there was no reason for there not to be an effective palisade. They were actually to the left of Cailan and the rest of the army.
The Chantry and Gregoir refused to send any more mages to Ostagar. I'm almost positive that was what the Magi Origin said.
If we ignore gameplay mechanics where Flame Blast doesn't outright kill them immediately and instead look at the cutscenes of the end of the 4th Blight (in the beginning of the game) as well as Anders when he used it on a bunch of darkspawn in Awakening, we know that it can cut down a lot of darkspawn directly in front of the mage.
As for the main army camp, you're right. There may have been some mercenaries, there may not have been. Either way, I'd still bring mercenaries were I able to financially and obviously were I the tactician of the forces at Ostagar.
Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 juin 2011 - 09:50 .
True. If I'm asking to bring at least 35 mages, I would also ask to bring a good number of mages so they don't go ape**** about mages being outside of the Tower.
Another reason why the Chantry is comprised of idiots. They sent only two Templars to monitor 7 mages. If they were that concerned about mages they'd send the Templars too.
The archers didn't have anyone in front of them while giving the first few vollies, that is(was) a common tactic, so that you didn't bring your troops too far ahead and within range of the enemy's archers, without the enemy being within range of your own archers. As you can see later in the battle of ostagar, the soldiers did charge ahead in front of the archers, if there was a palisade infront of the archers, it would have complicated things.
And again, there may have been more Templars than the two we meet, since we only see a small part of the army camp. Perhaps they were on break while the amges were in the Fade, or perhaps the developers felt that showing two Templars would suffice to show, that mages go nowhere without Templar supervision.
He was right only in the most general of senses--that Orlais had designs on Ferelden. I don't see any evidence that Celene was planning an invasion at that time. On the contrary, it looks like she was leveraging the aid she could offer to against the possible blight to gain a political alliance and possible marriage.
If Celene really wanted to conquer Ferelden militarily, the ideal time to strike would have been right after the Blight. Much of Ferelden's military and farmlands were destroyed...probably all you'd need to do is blockade the ports and there'd be mass starvation. Since she didn't do it, I'm guessing she wasn't prepared for an invasion at that time, perhaps because she had her hands full in Nevarra.
As far as why the chantry didn't send more Templars, to be honest, I think the Ferelden Circle was relatively lax and not overly concerned with their mages going bananas. We see Wynne and that other mage in DA:A wandering about without any Templar escort at all. They probably just sent out mages they trusted with a couple token Templars. And maybe they wanted to keep back their army for other reasons--it's noteworthy that in both Lothering and Redcliffe we see the Chantry taking a central role. Maybe they see opportunity in having the forces under Ferelden's secular leadership diminished.
As others have said, you don't have to be any kind of military genius to see that Orlais likes to conquer other nations when they see an opportunity. Making that easier for them by feeding the main Ferelden army to the darkspawn because he didn't trust his king isn't a great way to protect the country though.
Not that I particularly agree with monarchy as a good system of government, but you don't get out of being a traitor to your king just by seeing Orlais for what it has always been. And being Captain Obvious where Orlais is concerned doesn't forgive his many many other actions.
I think the calculation was that losing both Cailan's army and his to would leave the country all but completely unprotected. Loghain admits, if you ask him about the Orlesian threat after the LM, that he made a "tactical error."
It's surprising how many people think the Ostagar letters are conclusive about a marriage. There's really nothing in them to suggest it. Celene's tone isn't any indication of marriage intentions. The only thing I can think that would support it would be if you imported an assumption that Thedasian countries tend to bind their alliances with marriages, but even then it's hardly conclusive.
It's surprising how many people think the Ostagar letters are conclusive about a marriage. There's really nothing in them to suggest it. Celene's tone isn't any indication of marriage intentions. The only thing I can think that would support it would be if you imported an assumption that Thedasian countries tend to bind their alliances with marriages, but even then it's hardly conclusive.
IIRC, David Gaider has said something to the effect that that was the plan on the board somewhere. You're right that there's nothing conclusive in the letters themselves.
David Gaider confirmed in one of his PAX livestream chats that Cailan was planning to divorce Anora and marry Celene. It was originally going to be part of the game plot, but was dropped and hence the letters in RtO in order to bring that plot element back in a bit.
It's surprising how many people think the Ostagar letters are conclusive about a marriage. There's really nothing in them to suggest it. Celene's tone isn't any indication of marriage intentions. The only thing I can think that would support it would be if you imported an assumption that Thedasian countries tend to bind their alliances with marriages, but even then it's hardly conclusive.
Her letters talk just about an "alliance" meanwhile I think many cloude the issue with the letter from Cailan's uncle which warns about him not having an heir to the throne yet. That is more likely what angers and provokes the response when you take Loghain. Not about Orlais. Eamon basically is trying to talk his nephew into replacing Loghain's daughter to get an heir. Not Celene. It's not the same thing. People will apply what they like. They may assume also that Eamon married a women from Orlais but that was an Arl who did such a thing. Not Cailan who was obviously his own person despite what others were telling him.
"Your Majesty,My men will arrive as soon as possible to bolster your forces. Maker willing, this Blight will be ended before it has begun.Cailan, I beseech you, as your uncle, not to join the Grey Wardens on the Field. You cannot afford to take this risk. Ferelden cannot afford it. Let me remind you again that you do not have an heir. Your death--and it pains me even to think of it--would plunge Ferelden into chaos.And yes, perhaps when this is over you will allow me to bring up the subject of your heir. While a son from both the Theirin and Mac Tir lines would unite Ferelden like no other, we must accept that perhaps this can never be. The queen approaches her thirtieth year and her ability to give you a child lessens with each passing month. I submit to you again that it might be time to put Anora aside. We parted harshly the last time I spoke of this, but it has been a full year since then and nothing has changed.Please, nephew, consider my words, and Andraste's grace be with you.-- "A letter from Arl Eamon to King Cailan"
Meanwhile the Empress just seems to have diplomatic letters in regards to the War. First about her looking forward to the battle. Reading into that could go either way of her being malicious or blind optimism. The 2nd letter is basically how she can't see herself risking going due to the darkspawn. I don't believe she has an heir either so it would be a dangerous call. Just like Arl Eamon thought it was dangerous for Cailan to fight. Which he did anyway. I wager it is truly letter 2 that provokes the rage of Loghain. More than 1 & 3.
Duncan suspected it, but how much weight can you put on one man's gut feeling?
The problem is that Duncan was the Warden Commander of Ferelden. If Duncan were just a regular Grey Warden, then maybe I could understand not paying heed to his warnings, but given his experience and leadership within the Grey Wardens, it seems incredibly foolish to dismiss his warnings (which turn out to be correct).
From what I understand, darkspawn rarely venture out onto the surface, especially in large groups, except for during Blights. So it wasn't like Duncan's suspicions were baseless; large groups of surfacing darkspawn are one major characteristic of Blights.
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