144 réponses à ce sujet

[GavrielKay]

Addai67 wrote...
I think the calculation was that losing both Cailan's army and his to would leave the country all but completely unprotected.   Loghain admits, if you ask him about the Orlesian threat after the LM, that he made a "tactical error."

I won't go so far as to say it isn't possible that he made an actual tactical decision, but I don't believe it.  He made sure his soldiers were guarding the tower and my impression is that he intended to prevent the signal from being lit.  He seems upset to see it light, probably thinking he'd lost his ready made excuse quit the field.  Even Ser Cauthrien looks very surprised and has to be ordered to leave the field. 

[Addai]

GavrielKay wrote...
I won't go so far as to say it isn't possible that he made an actual tactical decision, but I don't believe it.  He made sure his soldiers were guarding the tower and my impression is that he intended to prevent the signal from being lit.  He seems upset to see it light, probably thinking he'd lost his ready made excuse quit the field.  Even Ser Cauthrien looks very surprised and has to be ordered to leave the field. 

According to Gaider he had in fact planned for the possibility of having to leave Cailan's army behind, but given the king's recklessness it would be foolish not to plan for that eventuality.  Gaider said he did not make the final decision to actually do so, however, until he saw the beacon.  It was Cailan's idea to be on the front lines, something Loghain tried to dissuade him from.

How much of his calculation to leave was political and how much tactical- I'd imagine not even Loghain could say.  Either way he believed he was protecting Ferelden.  He saw Cailan as a threat to the country's independence, but the dufus was also Maric and Rowan's son so he didn't want to kill him outright.  Loghain's whole debacle with poisoning Eamon was an attempt to undercut Cailan's political support due to his overtures to Orlais.  If he had just wanted Cailan dead, there are easier ways.

[GavrielKay]

Addai67 wrote...
Loghain's whole debacle with poisoning Eamon was an attempt to undercut Cailan's political support due to his overtures to Orlais.  If he had just wanted Cailan dead, there are easier ways.

Yeah, poisoning Eamon didn't earn Loghain any points in my book either.  But oh well.  That's old DAO stuff. 

I would have to agree with a few posts back where someone pointed out that the fact that Orlais didn't in fact attack Ferelden while they were weakened after the Blight pretty much means that Loghain was wrong.

[Wulfram]

Loghain couldn't allow Cailan to defeat the darkspawn because the prestige Cailan gained from that would have enabled him to stand up to Loghain's planned coup. As we see from his subsequent actions, he is unwilling to accept any challenge to his authority, not even from his supposedly competent daughter.

[maxernst]

Addai67 wrote...

Loghain's whole debacle with poisoning Eamon was an attempt to undercut Cailan's political support due to his overtures to Orlais.  If he had just wanted Cailan dead, there are easier ways.

True, but he probably also succeeded in destroying the armies of Cailan's most loyal vassals.  If the king simply died in other circumstances, there's no reason to assume Anora would necessarily be the next monarch.  If a Landsmeet chose Alistair or Fergus Cousland, Loghain's political power would be greatly diminished.

[Addai]

maxernst wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Loghain's whole debacle with poisoning Eamon was an attempt to undercut Cailan's political support due to his overtures to Orlais.  If he had just wanted Cailan dead, there are easier ways.

True, but he probably also succeeded in destroying the armies of Cailan's most loyal vassals.  If the king simply died in other circumstances, there's no reason to assume Anora would necessarily be the next monarch.  If a Landsmeet chose Alistair or Fergus Cousland, Loghain's political power would be greatly diminished.

According to the game chatter, Cailan was not widely respected in either the nobility or the smallfolk.  It takes quite a lot of effort to oust Anora if she goes against the Warden.  Even so, if all Loghain wanted to do was kill Cailan, he has the same problem you're suggesting whether he does it the Antivan way or via darkspawn- a lot more problems by deliberately throwing a big battle, it seems to me.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 juin 2011 - 11:25 .

[Persephone]

Wulfram wrote...

Loghain couldn't allow Cailan to defeat the darkspawn because the prestige Cailan gained from that would have enabled him to stand up to Loghain's planned coup. As we see from his subsequent actions, he is unwilling to accept any challenge to his authority, not even from his supposedly competent daughter.

*Facepalm*

Prestige is the last thing Loghain cares about. And Cailan couldn't stand up to a wet field mouse, much less to Loghain himself without pulling the "I am the KING! *Whine*" card.

This dead horse just got kicked into life again........wonderful.

[GavrielKay]

Addai67 wrote...
According to the game chatter, Cailan was not widely respected in either the nobility or the smallfolk.  It takes quite a lot of effort to oust Anora if she goes against the Warden.  Even so, if all Loghain wanted to do was kill Cailan, he has the same problem you're suggesting whether he does it the Antivan way or via darkspawn- a lot more problems by deliberately throwing a big battle, it seems to me.

I think any time a King dies under anything resembling unusual circumstances, the one who steps up to grab power is going to look guilty.  Assassination wouldn't have helped Loghain.  Not that I think much would have helped him, unless he could find some other way to control but not kill Cailen.

[TJPags]

We have no idea if the same issues are present if you made Anora Queen. So there's no way of knowing if he was right.

Even if it was, it could just be because Alistair is a bit of an idiot, and creating his own problems.

I still think Loghain is better off dead, for all concerned - even if he does live in all my games now, just so I can send Alistair off like a whining child.

[Wulfram]

Persephone wrote...
*Facepalm*

Prestige is the last thing Loghain cares about.

No, Loghain isn't an idiot.  He knows that in a feudal Kingdom such as Fereldan prestige is power.  He owes his power to the prestige which comes from being the Hero of River Dane.  Cailan is weak because he is unproven and in thus still in the shadow of his father and his father in law, but victory at Ostagar would change that.

And Cailan couldn't stand up to a wet field mouse, much less to Loghain himself without pulling the "I am the KING! *Whine*" card.

Cailan is standing up to Loghain.  That's why he died.

[Persephone]

Wulfram wrote...

Persephone wrote...
*Facepalm*

Prestige is the last thing Loghain cares about.

No, Loghain isn't an idiot.  He knows that in a feudal Kingdom such as Fereldan prestige is power.  He owes his power to the prestige which comes from being the Hero of River Dane.  Cailan is weak because he is unproven and in thus still in the shadow of his father and his father in law, but victory at Ostagar would change that.

And Cailan couldn't stand up to a wet field mouse, much less to Loghain himself without pulling the "I am the KING! *Whine*" card.

Cailan is standing up to Loghain.  That's why he died.

He died because he was an incompetent fool.

[sphinxess]

Persephone wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Persephone wrote...
*Facepalm*

Prestige is the last thing Loghain cares about.

No, Loghain isn't an idiot.  He knows that in a feudal Kingdom such as Fereldan prestige is power.  He owes his power to the prestige which comes from being the Hero of River Dane.  Cailan is weak because he is unproven and in thus still in the shadow of his father and his father in law, but victory at Ostagar would change that.

And Cailan couldn't stand up to a wet field mouse, much less to Loghain himself without pulling the "I am the KING! *Whine*" card.

Cailan is standing up to Loghain.  That's why he died.

He died because he was an incompetent fool.

If Duncan had acted as a Grey Warden "whatever it takes" and had actually revealed the secret that wardens can see the archmage in their dreams <and explained however much it takes to have Loghain and the king believe him> if anything would have been different

[TEWR]

TJPags wrote...

We have no idea if the same issues are present if you made Anora Queen. So there's no way of knowing if he was right.

Even if it was, it could just be because Alistair is a bit of an idiot, and creating his own problems.

I still think Loghain is better off dead, for all concerned - even if he does live in all my games now, just so I can send Alistair off like a whining child.

Alistair isn't an idiot. He's a well-loved monarch of the people who, if you hardened him, takes an active part in learning how to govern. And he's done so quite well given the comments by Aveline where he's become a sensation in Ferelden.


Given Orlais' history of invading countries when those countries are at their weakest (or in the case of the Dales, because Orlais needed more land after the 2nd Blight which almost destroyed them), they'd probably do the same thing if Anora was on the throne.

[Torax]

Keep in mind. Most of the really terrible actions you use against Loghain at the Landsmeet were the machinations of Howe and not Loghain himself. When you ask Anora about her father and Howe, her response is about how he thought he would be above the "snake's" influence. But Howe is a crafty sort. He used the situation to basically go from a station that was lowly to attempting to be even outrank even Loghain himself if Loghain if he was no longer the regent. Since only Loghain and Cousland were the highest of the nobles besides the King. Howe managed to become more than that even taking not only his original Arl, but attempted to be the Teynr of Highever and the Arl of the nation's capitol in one fell swoop.

A man working for Howe ordered the elf to spy on Eamon's sickness. Howe moved his room to the prison of the Estate to be closer to the torture. Howe seemed to be planning much of the strategy and while working the authority for Loghain most likely even arranged the slavery to pay for the expensive war. Loghain would have been easy to manipulate due to his ego, paranoia and fear. Loghain didn't truly have anything to gain. Howe had everything to gain...

Modifié par Torax, 16 juin 2011 - 12:59 .

[TEWR]

True. Howe has no sense of morals. One of the Banns (or was it an Arl?) says that after White River Howe changed. The old Rendon Howe died and was replaced by the one we saw. All he cared about was power. He didn't care how he got it.

He had the Arling of Amaranthine, the teyrnir of Highever after he attacked the Couslands, and the arling of Denerim after imprisoning Vaughn (or just stepping in if you killed him in the CE Origin). That's the entire northeastern part of Ferelden under his thumb.


Howe probably did see Loghain's paranoia as a way to move farther up. Loghain was overcome with so much paranoia he couldn't think straight.


I blame Howe for everything after Ostagar. B*stard deserved to die a worse death than we gave him.

[TJPags]

Torax wrote...

Keep in mind. Most of the really terrible actions you use against Loghain at the Landsmeet were the machinations of Howe and not Loghain himself. When you ask Anora about her father and Howe, her response is about how he thought he would be above the "snake's" influence. But Howe is a crafty sort. He used the situation to basically go from a station that was lowly to attempting to be even outrank even Loghain himself if Loghain if he was no longer the regent. Since only Loghain and Cousland were the highest of the nobles besides the King. Howe managed to become more than that even taking not only his original Arl, but attempted to be the Teynr of Highever and the Arl of the nation's capitol in one fell swoop.

A man working for Howe ordered the elf to spy on Eamon's sickness. Howe moved his room to the prison of the Estate to be closer to the torture. Howe seemed to be planning much of the strategy and while working the authority for Loghain most likely even arranged the slavery to pay for the expensive war. Loghain would have been easy to manipulate due to his ego, paranoia and fear. Loghain didn't truly have anything to gain. Howe had everything to gain...

Sure, some of this is true.  But even if all of it is true, Loghain allowed it to happen.  I'm a firm believer that the bick stops at the top.  Loghain, by not stopping Howe, allowed Howe's actions, and to my mind, approved them by his failure to take Howe to task.  Even if he simply couldn't be bothered, or "had more important things to do", well, to me, it still falls on his shoulders.

[Torax]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

True. Howe has no sense of morals. One of the Banns (or was it an Arl?) says that after White River Howe changed. The old Rendon Howe died and was replaced by the one we saw. All he cared about was power. He didn't care how he got it.

He had the Arling of Amaranthine, the teyrnir of Highever after he attacked the Couslands, and the arling of Denerim after imprisoning Vaughn (or just stepping in if you killed him in the CE Origin). That's the entire northeastern part of Ferelden under his thumb.


Howe probably did see Loghain's paranoia as a way to move farther up. Loghain was overcome with so much paranoia he couldn't think straight.


I blame Howe for everything after Ostagar. B*stard deserved to die a worse death than we gave him.

Aye and since Loghain was just a Teynir, if he had to step down from being Regent? Howe would be the most powerful person besides whoever rules without question. Loghain was so blind I doubt he even saw that.

[TJPags]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

TJPags wrote...

We have no idea if the same issues are present if you made Anora Queen. So there's no way of knowing if he was right.

Even if it was, it could just be because Alistair is a bit of an idiot, and creating his own problems.

I still think Loghain is better off dead, for all concerned - even if he does live in all my games now, just so I can send Alistair off like a whining child.

Alistair isn't an idiot. He's a well-loved monarch of the people who, if you hardened him, takes an active part in learning how to govern. And he's done so quite well given the comments by Aveline where he's become a sensation in Ferelden.


Given Orlais' history of invading countries when those countries are at their weakest (or in the case of the Dales, because Orlais needed more land after the 2nd Blight which almost destroyed them), they'd probably do the same thing if Anora was on the throne.

Tp the first point, I think Alistair is an absolute idiot.  He's idealistic, naive, somehow has a sense of self-entitlement and an inferiority complex at the same time.  Hardened Alistair learning how to govern doesn't mean he's not an idiot - just that he can learn things.  Being well loved also doens't make him not an idiot - Caillan was well loved, too, remember.

What you say about Orlais is true, and may be true, respectively.  But we simply don't know how it's playing out with Anora at the helm.

[Addai]

GavrielKay wrote...
I would have to agree with a few posts back where someone pointed out that the fact that Orlais didn't in fact attack Ferelden while they were weakened after the Blight pretty much means that Loghain was wrong.

As I said upthread, he agrees himself that there was no immediate threat, though also says that it's easy to judge that in hindsight.

What I think the comment in DA2 suggests is that Loghain is right that there's a long-term threat, that there are people who are high up enough in Orlesian society who still want to conquer Ferelden that Alistair takes notice and has to deal with them.  Celene was just hoping to catch the fly with honey.

Modifié par Addai67, 16 juin 2011 - 02:38 .

[The Baconer]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

Another thread and debate about Loghain!

Dammit, you're right. We can come up with better stuff with this.

Maybe a... Maybe a topic about Templars and Mages?

[SkittlesKat96]

 Technically he was right but at the same time his distrust and hate of the Grey Wardens was just ridiculous and he failed to realize the importance of the Grey Wardens and how truly horrible the Blight was. He may be a good ruler but he was overparanoid and almost let Fereldan fall to the Blight. Also I reckon his paranoia about Orlais even though he had a reason to dislike them he took it too far and was overparanoid

Modifié par SkittlesKat96, 16 juin 2011 - 03:52 .

[GavrielKay]

Addai67 wrote...
What I think the comment in DA2 suggests is that Loghain is right that there's a long-term threat, that there are people who are high up enough in Orlesian society who still want to conquer Ferelden that Alistair takes notice and has to deal with them.  Celene was just hoping to catch the fly with honey.

A long term threat doesn't make Loghain right, though.  Loghain felt it was such an immediate threat that it outweighed the invasion of darkspawn in the South.  Right up until the Warden defeats him at the Landsmeet he still thinks he's the best one to lead despite the civil war and blight spreading across the land.  Given ten years later, the threat from Orlais is still just rumblings among some of the nobles, I think Loghain was clearly wrong.