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[TEWR]

you can't really blame him though for having that fear and lack of trust towards Orlais given their history. But you can blame him for letting his fears rule his own mind.


general you here. Nobody specific in mind.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 juin 2011 - 05:13 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

GavrielKay wrote...
A long term threat doesn't make Loghain right, though.  Loghain felt it was such an immediate threat that it outweighed the invasion of darkspawn in the South.

If you notice the map in-game and that "blighted cloud", throughout most of the game, it actually doesn't go past Lothering until the very end when it explodes. So in his place, I'd think 4 legions amassing at the borders is a larger threat.
You'd think the Bannorn, who are right north of Lothering, would be more susceptible to that argument, but of course everyone ends up ignoring them.

If I wasn't bored with this debate after the millionth time, I would have come here full force.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 juin 2011 - 05:17 .

[dragonflight288]

Since I didn't really see Orlais's troop movements, I can't say whether or not those four legions of Chevalier's were a true threat or not. But the darkspawn were moving, destroying almost all of Ferelden while the banns were busy killing each other.

When you look at it that way, you can see Thorin Aeducan's ancestors smiling on him during the blight.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Hanz54321 wrote...

I just wanted to see if folks thought Loghain knew the Orlesians were coming or if they thought he was the "clock right twice a day" on this one. I'm w KoP regarding everything else. I'm not going to get into a huge discussion on Loghain's intentions and every other little thing. That's all DAO related.

So Loghain is Shepard, whereas the Wardens and the nobility are the Council?

[Sister Helen]

... Loghain did the unforgiveable ... You do not feed your people - the folks who trust you, who have faith in you, who left their farms and villages to serve you - to darkspawn. Ever.

[Rifneno]

Addai67 wrote...

David Gaider confirmed in one of his PAX livestream chats that Cailan was planning to divorce Anora and marry Celene. It was originally going to be part of the game plot, but was dropped and hence the letters in RtO in order to bring that plot element back in a bit.

Indeed. But what I still don't get is why people think it's automatically some great betrayal to Ferelden. Royalty marries other nation's royalty for political alliances all the damn time, especially former enemies.

Persephone wrote...

*Facepalm*

Prestige is the last thing Loghain cares about. And Cailan couldn't stand up to a wet field mouse, much less to Loghain himself without pulling the "I am the KING! *Whine*" card.

This dead horse just got kicked into life again........wonderful.

Unlike the coward who fled, Cailan stood up to the darkspawn horde. And dead horse? You're surprised we're talking about Dragon Age, on the Dragon Age forum? Facepalm indeed.

TJPags wrote...

We have no idea if the same issues are present if you made Anora Queen. So there's no way of knowing if he was right.

Even if it was, it could just be because Alistair is a bit of an idiot, and creating his own problems.

Yes, you do know. Because if hardened Alistair is married to Anora, he still shows up in Kirkwall saying Orlais is considering invasion.

But I'm sure someone will just handwave this as saying it's because Alistair screws things up even with Anora around, despite any proof other than their bias against him. Because after all, you're a whiner if you have any dissatisfaction with the curse that is being a Grey Warden, having your father abandon you, your foster father sell you to an evil religion that wants you to be a drug-addled soldier fighting a cause you don't even believe in, watching a national hero let your brother and the mentor who you feel saved you die for his own political selfishness and parnoia, possibly then to have the only other Ferelden Warden spare him and give him what you feel is a great honor for his many horrific deeds. Yeah, what's his problem? I'm sure none of you would complain at all after enduring that stuff. That's everyday nonsense. Like a stubbed toe. It's not like he had to endure anything REALLY horrible, like a bit of complaining in a video game. Oh the horrors you must face!

... Ahh, that felt good to get out.

TJPags wrote...

Sure, some of this is true.  But even if all of it is true, Loghain allowed it to happen.  I'm a firm believer that the bick stops at the top.  Loghain, by not stopping Howe, allowed Howe's actions, and to my mind, approved them by his failure to take Howe to task.  Even if he simply couldn't be bothered, or "had more important things to do", well, to me, it still falls on his shoulders.

This. Trying to let Loghain off the hook by blaming Howe for most of it is laughable. Especially since the worst things he did, selling Denerim citizens into Tevinter slavery and sacrificing the king and his army at Ostagar, Howe had nothing to do with.

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

Another thread and debate about Loghain!

Do you guys love beating a dead horse so much?

The same could be said for the phrase "beating a dead horse." People talk about Dragon Age on the Dragon Age forums. Shocker, I know. We must learn to adjust somehow.

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

So Loghain is Shepard, whereas the Wardens and the nobility are the Council?

I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

[Wulfram]

Rifneno wrote...

Indeed. But what I still don't get is why people think it's automatically some great betrayal to Ferelden. Royalty marries other nation's royalty for political alliances all the damn time, especially former enemies.

Marriages between reigning monarchs are pretty rare, though.

I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea, but the Landsmeet would be foolish if it didn't impose some fairly stringent conditions. 
No Orlesian forces should enter Ferelden, or Fereldan forces fight abroad, without the Landsmeet's consent, and no Orlesians should be appointed to Fereldan offices. 
Cailan should be obliged to spend 2 months out of 4 in Fereldan.
Any rights Celene might be thought to have to succeed Cailan should be explicitly declared invalid, and the Landsmeet's right to choose the next King - and indeed to depose the reigning King - should be asserted.

Modifié par Wulfram, 16 juin 2011 - 02:48 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...
I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea, but the Landsmeet would be foolish if it didn't impose some fairly stringent conditions. 

Trusting the Landsmeet to be a strong institutitonal check, which is known for being highly divisive and made up of idiot nobles who are easily manipulated, is more foolish than trusting Cailan to find his way to the bathroom.

The vast majority of nobles licked Orlesian boots for 90 years in the first invasion. And that's when the Orlesians were not even trying to be subtle. 

[Wulfram]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Trusting the Landsmeet to be a strong institutitonal check, which is known for being highly divisive and made up of idiot nobles who are easily manipulated, is more foolish than trusting Cailan to find his way to the bathroom.

The vast majority of nobles licked Orlesian boots for 90 years in the first invasion. And that's when the Orlesians were not even trying to be subtle. 

Well, if the Landsmeet is incapable of stepping up, you might as well write off Fereldan as an independent nation anyway, since it's the only real unifying institution Fereldan's got.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...
Well, if the Landsmeet is incapable of stepping up, you might as well write off Fereldan as an independent nation anyway, since it's the only real unifying institution Fereldan's got.

Not unless Ferelden embraces modernity and establishes a more centralized state, with a weakened or eradicated nobility.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 juin 2011 - 04:00 .

[Wulfram]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Not unless Ferelden embraces modernity and establishes a more centralized state, with a weakened or eradicated nobility.

Well, Loghain's attempt to force the nobility in to line is hardly encouraging for that plan.  Even a temporary success will leave the Bannorn prone to rebel - or seek alliance with Orlais - since there's really nothing to tie them to Denerim and the Crown.

On the other hand, the Landsmeet has the potential to be a powerful force for unification and mobilisation of Fereldan as a whole, much as Parliament was for England.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Not unless Ferelden embraces modernity and establishes a more centralized state, with a weakened or eradicated nobility.

Well, Loghain's attempt to force the nobility in to line is hardly encouraging for that plan.  Even a temporary success will leave the Bannorn prone to rebel - or seek alliance with Orlais - since there's really nothing to tie them to Denerim and the Crown.

On the other hand, the Landsmeet has the potential to be a powerful force for unification and mobilisation of Fereldan as a whole, much as Parliament was for England.

I didnt' say Loghain's methods were efficient. They are not.

The parliament in England was dominated by middle class and that's the only way the Landsmeet would ever be efficient. Of course centralizing the system, around both the crown and a new Landsmeet that truly represents the common folk would take time and subtelty.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 juin 2011 - 04:47 .

[Wulfram]

From what we hear of the Banns, they seem pretty much equivalent to the gentry who dominated the English parliament. And the Banns are in their turn entirely dependant on the support of the freeholders, who are unambiguously middle class.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...

From what we hear of the Banns, they seem pretty much equivalent to the gentry who dominated the English parliament. And the Banns are in their turn entirely dependant on the support of the freeholders, who are unambiguously middle class.

The English parliament dominated England only when it was clearly the middle class that dominated it, as in lower house became more important than upper house (it was explicitly demonstrated in the "glorious revolution"). And that's when England started to become a power that was relevent. 

The middle class do not need over glorified land owners as representatives, they can represent themselves.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 juin 2011 - 05:14 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

you can't really blame him though for having that fear and lack of trust towards Orlais given their history. But you can blame him for letting his fears rule his own mind.


general you here. Nobody specific in mind.

It would seem that his fear was justified however. I agree that he shouldn't have let it cloud his judgement like it did, but he should have pressed for Ferelden to manage on their own, like he did. I am confident that if the Chevaliers were allowed entry into Ferelden, the nobles of Orlais would somehow find an excuse for letting them stay in Ferelden. Like having to hunt down the remnants of the Darkspawn horde, or help rebuild. And to have four legions already stationed within the country they would later invade, would be a significant advantage.

[Wulfram]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

From what we hear of the Banns, they seem pretty much equivalent to the gentry who dominated the English parliament. And the Banns are in their turn entirely dependant on the support of the freeholders, who are unambiguously middle class.

The English parliament dominated England only when it was clearly the middle class that dominated it, as in lower house became more important than upper house (it was explicitly demonstrated in the "glorious revolution"). And that's when England started to become a power that was relevent.

The middle class do not need over glorified land owners as representatives, they can represent themselves.

The House of Commons was not clearly established as more important than the upper house until quite a bit later, though the greater activity of it's members meant it usually took the lead.  In any case, the House of Commons was still dominated by the upper class, at least until the Great Reform Act of 1832 allowed some semblance of free elections.  Just look at the Prime Ministers - before the 20th century all except Disraeli were either the sons of peers, or went to Eton, Harrow or Winchester.

The Landsmeet does a much better job of representing the middle classes than the British parliament did during the foundation of the empire.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Except the House of Commons was not made up by nobles, and the upper class bourgeoisie at the time could be considered as part of the middle class, in the sense that they weren't nobles. And they certainly did a much better job leading their country.

And I saw nothing of the Landsmeet supposedely representating anyone except delluded idiots.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 juin 2011 - 06:15 .

[Addai]

GavrielKay wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
What I think the comment in DA2 suggests is that Loghain is right that there's a long-term threat, that there are people who are high up enough in Orlesian society who still want to conquer Ferelden that Alistair takes notice and has to deal with them.  Celene was just hoping to catch the fly with honey.

A long term threat doesn't make Loghain right, though.  Loghain felt it was such an immediate threat that it outweighed the invasion of darkspawn in the South.

Which, like I've said numerous times, Loghain admits was a mistake.  And I don't dispute it, either.  

Right up until the Warden defeats him at the Landsmeet he still thinks he's the best one to lead despite the civil war and blight spreading across the land.  Given ten years later, the threat from Orlais is still just rumblings among some of the nobles, I think Loghain was clearly wrong.

Who should lead the country is a different matter.  Why you think he should trust a young upstart from a shady mercenary order which considers themselves above most laws and has been involved in an attempted coup to overthrow the Fereldan monarchy before to lead the country better than him and his daughter- that's unclear to me.  He was regent when Maric was absent, in The Calling.  He mishandled the nobles after Cailan's death, but he was not entirely out to lunch in taking the regency.

If the King of Ferelden is concerned, it's obviously not a matter of a few gossipy upstarts.  Celene is getting on in years and we have no idea what the political situation in Orlais is like.

Modifié par Addai67, 16 juin 2011 - 07:27 .

[Addai]

Hanz54321 wrote...
I confess I also wondered who was going to come out to play on this thread. Most of the "DA2 Discussion Regulars" never mentions Loghain and DA2's foreshadowing of Orlais. I wondered if they would take part, but most of them didn't.

Similarly, about half the people on this thread don't usually post (they may read, but rarely post) on the DA2 boards. They are the same people who have been discussing Loghain for two years over on the DAO.

Interesting result.

I've participated in some of the mage-templar discussions, but those are so redundant at this point, and to me the Origins characters are more interesting than any from DA2.  I just don't enjoy discussing DA2.  Don't like the story, don't really care about the characters.

[Wulfram]

Whatever you can say about the Grey Wardens, they are hardly mercenaries.

And when Anora questions Loghain's policy, she is locked up. So you can hardly say his daughter was part of leading the country - her role was to be a pretty decoration to add a semblance of legitimacy to his coup.

Modifié par Wulfram, 16 juin 2011 - 07:35 .

[Addai]

Rifneno wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

David Gaider confirmed in one of his PAX livestream chats that Cailan was planning to divorce Anora and marry Celene. It was originally going to be part of the game plot, but was dropped and hence the letters in RtO in order to bring that plot element back in a bit.

Indeed. But what I still don't get is why people think it's automatically some great betrayal to Ferelden. Royalty marries other nation's royalty for political alliances all the damn time, especially former enemies.

Cailan was a dufus and Celene would have eaten him for petit dejeuner.  There was no way this could have been a diplomatically sound deal.  Besides the fact that he would have to divorce a very popular queen to do it.

They aren't just enemies, they brutally occupied the country for several generations and only just were kicked out at great cost.  I'm not going to offer any RL corollaries, but you can probably think of some for yourself.

[Addai]

Wulfram wrote...
And when Anora questions Loghain's policy, she is locked up. So you can hardly say his daughter was part of leading the country - her role was to be a pretty decoration to add a semblance of legitimacy to his coup.

Anora disputes that herself.  She says she trusted Loghain up until late in the game events, and that she went to Howe of her own will.

[Wulfram]

Addai67 wrote...

Anora disputes that herself.  She says she trusted Loghain up until late in the game events, and that she went to Howe of her own will.

It is absolutely obvious that Loghain is the one exercising power from the start, and Loghain leaves her imprisoned even after Howe has suggested her murder.

And most obviously, he is absolutely determined to cling to power even after Anora sides against him.  If the Landsmeet follows his daughter rather than him, he calls them traitors.