144 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

He declared any bann who didn't follow him were to be considered enemies and he slaughtered their armies in civil war so he could fight the darkspawn....with far less men than he could have had, had the land been united.

[Gabey5]

like nostradamus if you make a million predictions you are bound to thow something that ends up being true in the mix. Logain was downplaying the blight, the wardens are out get me, and orlais is gonna attack any minute dood, you posioned my daughter agianst me, imma send assains out and kill everyone

[dragonflight288]

Also Nostradamus was incredibly vague in his predictions. "The sun grows dark, but lo here comes t dawn!" It can mean anything.

Thanks Jowan for the quote. lol.

[Get Magna Carter]

Rifneno wrote...

Persephone wrote...

*Facepalm*

Prestige is the last thing Loghain cares about. And Cailan couldn't stand up to a wet field mouse, much less to Loghain himself without pulling the "I am the KING! *Whine*" card.

This dead horse just got kicked into life again........wonderful.

Unlike the coward who fled, Cailan stood up to the darkspawn horde. And dead horse? You're surprised we're talking about Dragon Age, on the Dragon Age forum? Facepalm indeed.

Loghain was not a coward but an Egotist.
As I see it, He believed He and only he could save Ferelden.
He thought Caillan was a fool and that the Grey Wardens pretended to have some special necessity for killing darkspawn in order to infiltrate countries and meddle with the politics and he believed Ferelden would be better off without them so decided on the treasonous action of desertion, confident that having done so everybody would agree with him and do everything he tells them and it would all be wonderful.
He was wrong.
badly wrong
People questioned and challenged his version of events refused to blindly obey him so he couldn't put together a new army to confront the darkspawn hordes leaving them free to devestate much of the kingdom.
He ended up compromising his ethics by making deals with Howe and selling elves into slavery.
And almost doomed the country because Grey wardens were needed. 

[LovelyLittleLeprechauns]

Persephone wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

David Gaider confirmed in one of his PAX livestream chats that Cailan was planning to divorce Anora and marry Celene. It was originally going to be part of the game plot, but was dropped and hence the letters in RtO in order to bring that plot element back in a bit.

Indeed. But what I still don't get is why people think it's automatically some great betrayal to Ferelden. Royalty marries other nation's royalty for political alliances all the damn time, especially former enemies.

Persephone wrote...

*Facepalm*

Prestige is the last thing Loghain cares about. And Cailan couldn't stand up to a wet field mouse, much less to Loghain himself without pulling the "I am the KING! *Whine*" card.

This dead horse just got kicked into life again........wonderful.

Unlike the coward who fled, Cailan stood up to the darkspawn horde. And dead horse? You're surprised we're talking about Dragon Age, on the Dragon Age forum? Facepalm indeed.

Yes. Just look at how well that ended for Mary Tudor.

Casting aside a loyal wife to marry your the ruler of your former oppressors isn't a betrayal?

You can't tell the difference between a tactical retreat (Something even the greatest generals have used) and cowardice?

Or the difference between reckless glory hunting idiocy ("No archdemon! Waaaaah!") and bravery.....

This is the DAII forum, while discussing the situation is on topic, the billionth debate on Ostagar clearly is not.

Sure Cailan stood up to the darkspawn horde but he didn't take it very seriously. He WANTED the archdemon to appear, he wanted it to be a real blight so that he could take part in a battle "just like in the tales". Loghain was ready to fight with Cailan on the battlefield but when the beacon was lit (the signal was late), from what he could see of the battle (there is a reason they needed the beacon) there strategy was already ruined and if he had rushed the battlefield at that moment he would have led all of his men to slaughter. So was he right to retreat, yes. It was his decision to make, saving one man wasn't worth the lives of the people under his command.

Cailan marrying Empress Celine of Orlais would have cause a lot of implications for Ferelden and considering that Cailan was already married definatley would make that arrangement a betrayal. Ferelden just gained its independence not thirty years ago and to form that kind of alliance.... it wouldn't have been good.

[Huntress]

it doesn't look good to be marry and have no heir's either. Loghain betrayed the king, yes the king was a fool, but he WAS the king and as one he needs heirs wich Anora cant give.

If king cailan would have marry celine in secret it probably would have been a disaster, all the ban's including Couslands would have gone to war against him only if he doens't mention that Anora cant give him son's. if he mention that.. well loghain would have killed him all the same.

[Quething]

Huntress wrote...

it doesn't look good to be marry and have no heir's either. Loghain betrayed the king, yes the king was a fool, but he WAS the king and as one he needs heirs wich Anora cant give.

If king cailan would have marry celine in secret it probably would have been a disaster, all the ban's including Couslands would have gone to war against him only if he doens't mention that Anora cant give him son's. if he mention that.. well loghain would have killed him all the same.

Sort of a tangent, but why is everyone always so quick to blame the lack of children on Anora?

We know Calian slept around, but it's not like Eamon offers up any other bastards out of the woodwork (and it'd be in his best interests to do so, they'd be a lot easier to control than reluctant, Warden-loyal Alistair with his potentially forceful Warden best friend). Seems far more likely to me that he's shooting blanks than that she is. The fact that everyone blames her in-game is pretty meaningless, that's just period-accurate sexism in play.

[PantheraOnca]

i don't understand the love for loghain, whether or not he was or was not possibly correct about some things.

[LovelyLittleLeprechauns]

PantheraOnca wrote...

i don't understand the love for loghain, whether or not he was or was not possibly correct about some things.

I suppose you never will.... It is not something you can get through an explanation.

Personally I love Loghain, but that wasn't untill recently after I had played the game a few times. Although I am not quite sure what made me change my mind about him.....  I just love his character

[Joy Divison]

PantheraOnca wrote...

i don't understand the love for loghain, whether or not he was or was not possibly correct about some things.

It's not that the people who like to discuss Loghain love him, it is that he is actually an interesting and ambiguous anatgonist.

Hopes for DA3

[Naamah_bb]

Flemeth to Maric : “Keep him close, and he will betray
you. Each time worse than the last.”

I rest my case

Modifié par Naamah_bb, 21 octobre 2011 - 01:56 .

[RagingCyclone]

Joy Divison wrote...

PantheraOnca wrote...

i don't understand the love for loghain, whether or not he was or was not possibly correct about some things.

It's not that the people who like to discuss Loghain love him, it is that he is actually an interesting and ambiguous anatgonist.

Hopes for DA3

This! Loghain was simply a man with motivations and perceptions, right or wrong, that drove his decisions. He is the best antagonist I have come across in the games because he was a man with failings and convictions that he followed with the full belief that he was doing the right thing. There was no mystical idol or some other contrived thing that drove his decisions.

[naledgeborn]

Long live the Hero of River Dane! He was off the mark by a decade or so, but he was right nonetheless. Orlais will try to take Ferelden with or without Celene. I suspect that this will be one of the major plot points for DA3.

[KJandrew]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


What pisses me off is not only how he left his king to die when the battle could've been won (see here:  you can see troops in the far back all moving to the right, not just the ones up front),

But if you look at the approaching Darkspawn horde, it's huge as well. A lot larger than Loghain's. If he'd charged in, he might have made a darkspawn sandwich between his and Cailan's men but then his guys would have been attack from behind and most likely overrun.

[LovelyLittleLeprechauns]

naledgeborn wrote...

Long live the Hero of River Dane! He was off the mark by a decade or so, but he was right nonetheless. Orlais will try to take Ferelden with or without Celene. I suspect that this will be one of the major plot points for DA3.

I agree. It definitely seems as though Orlais is becoming a focus point.

[nightscrawl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

He was right and wrong really. He thought the troops Empress Celene was sending over would be the start of an invasion, when almost all of them were Grey Wardens. They wouldn't have been a threat to Ferelden. Still, his paranoia was justified given Orlais' history. I always let him live these days. Alistair will thank me one day I'm sure.


I'm expecting him to renounce his Warden Oath and return to Ferelden to defend it from the Orlesians should an invasion actually occur.

I just have him duel Loghain so I don't have to decide. Alistair is the one who does it really ;D.

At any rate, after reading The Stolen Throne, I had a great deal more sympathy, understanding, and liking of Loghain as a person. However, he was a bad ruler. Great commander and battlefield strategist, yes. Ruler of a kingdom, no. He didn't even go about it the right way. Although his intention might have been to save Ferelden in the long run by getting rid of Cailan, there were many nobles who resented it and also felt threatened by the action. He alienated people rather than gaining supporters.

He also seemed completely unreasonable in refusing to listen to anyone else on the matter. He was right and that was it. Unfortunately, the necessary secrecy that the Grey Wardens keep about their order didn't help matters. Perhaps if Duncan had just told them he knew it was a blight for such and such reason, things might have turned out differently.

[DeniablyEpic]

Brockololly wrote...

Loghain is always right.

/thread

 No Loghain was not right he had a duty to stay and fight with his king the grey wardens went on to unite the rest of Ferelden against him. if loghain and his forces  would have died at ostagar it would have been much easier for the grey warden hence loghain is a traitor.

[jamesp81]

Loghain was not entirely wrong, as the Orlesians have an established history of using blights to conquer other nations. They did this with Nevarra once already. Given who Loghain is, there's no way to reasonably think he'd see things otherwise.

I still usually put Alistair on the throne. Not putting Alistair on the throne results in him being a wandering drunk or killed by Anora, and the man doesn't deserve either fate. If there was a way I could keep Loghain alive and have it end well for Alistair, I would, but I'm not aware of any such outcome (maybe I'm wrong here). I know Alistair can remain a Warden if Anora is crowned, but there's something slimy about her that I just don't like.

Maybe I'm not familiar with all the possible Origins outcomes, there are quite a few. At first I did detest Loghain, and he was a bastard for what he did at Ostagar. Still, I get why he did it. I also acknowledge that having the Hero of the River Dane on your side is probably good for the public's morale.

[naledgeborn]

jamesp81 wrote...

Loghain was not entirely wrong, as the Orlesians have an established history of using blights to conquer other nations. They did this with Nevarra once already. Given who Loghain is, there's no way to reasonably think he'd see things otherwise.

I still usually put Alistair on the throne. Not putting Alistair on the throne results in him being a wandering drunk or killed by Anora, and the man doesn't deserve either fate. If there was a way I could keep Loghain alive and have it end well for Alistair, I would, but I'm not aware of any such outcome (maybe I'm wrong here). I know Alistair can remain a Warden if Anora is crowned, but there's something slimy about her that I just don't like.

Maybe I'm not familiar with all the possible Origins outcomes, there are quite a few. At first I did detest Loghain, and he was a bastard for what he did at Ostagar. Still, I get why he did it. I also acknowledge that having the Hero of the River Dane on your side is probably good for the public's morale.

You can force Alistair to marry Anora and make Loghain a Grey Warden. Win-win. Win-win-win if you trust Morrigan enough to do the Dark Ritual (which in my game he did).