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[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
They do in DA:O, back when they were competent.
And Templars are in every major population center, in Chantries.

The underground mage movement being as strong as it is in that scenario makes...little sense though. And again no one notices Morrigan. They only notice the Warden who would have grown up in the Circle.

Because DA2 makes no sense.

Sweeping generalizations like that really are beneath you, KOP. 

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
It had to be the CM's mannerisms and way of speaking. Why wouldn't that be the case when the CM grew up in the circle and had been their since they were about 6?

Then why is Anders not noticeable to them?

Because DA2 makes no sense. Hell, you can even tell them taht he is plotting against the Chantry and they don't give a ****.

Anders *is* noticed by them! He says it himself! Cullen says it! They don't arrest him because he was a grey warden. 

In DA2, he is no longer a Grey Warden.

Er, yes, he IS a Grey Warden. A Grey Warden who left Vigil's Keep but a Warden. Even the refugees know him as such. (As does Varric)

[Herr Uhl]

Filament wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Mages aren't even remotely comparable with nuclear weapons. Just saying.

Nope. They can brainwash you, let demons infest your body, or drain all the blood from you from a distance. 

Much more deadly and efficent than nuclear weapons. At least with those your opponent might end up hurting himself too. 

More deadly?

They could mind control a guy to fire off 2 nuclear weapons.

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

Playest wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Mages aren't even remotely comparable with nuclear weapons. Just saying.

An abomination is capable of killing dozens though. So... not on the scale of a nuclear weapon, but an order of magnitude worse than a crazy guy with an assault rifle.

Think about what Connor did to redcliffe in origins. abominations aren't the worst case scenario.

Connor was an abomination. The term 'abomination' isn't strictly for those who put on the flesh jacket. Anders is an abomination too.

As well as Uldred and The Baroness.


I wanna see if a child abomination that dons the meatball flesh jacket is a mini version of the ones we see or if he has a giant growth spurt.

[Persephone]

RosaAquafire wrote...

For crying out loud, this question has been answered and talked about so many times it's been beaten into the ground.

Bioware intended for this issue to be morally grey. They did from the start. That was in fact, iirc, the inspiration for the entire Dragon Age world. How would someone with the powers of a D&D mage be treated in the real world? They'd either control everything or be regulated and oppressed, there wouldn't be any inbetween. This was literally the inspiration for Thedas.

They goofed up on Origins by letting the player walk in the steps of a mage without representing the other POV. Instead of coming across as a complex issue, as they intended, it came across very black and white. Mages were oppressed innocents. Nobody who makes choices based on their own morality instead of roleplay would ever choose to annul the Circle in the Broken Circle quest. Bioware had telemetry that told them this.

There were also a lot of complaints on the whole that Origins's "moral choices" were very simplistic with easy answers. At best, we got morally right vs. pragmatically practical. At worst, we got good vs. bad. That works for some games but Origins had been advertised as being full of hard choices and wasn't. The mages debate was especially one-sided and Bioware realized they fumbled it.

They didn't want us to side with the templars in DA2, they wanted us to not immediately and obviously be able to identify who to side with. They wanted us to have to think about the debate and see the logic of both sides and the difficulty that this world has finding a solution to deal with this very real problem. I don't know how many times this needs to be said before a few certain people hear it and stop grandstanding everywhere, but there we go.

Personally, I do think it could have been handled better. Show the good and the bad on both sides instead of just the bad. I would have liked to have had another Templar character aside from Cullen who showed that there are perfectly good and reasonable people in that order, and another mage character who really talked about how hard it is to resist demons but how strong their convictions to hold on to themselves were. But I was happy to actually see mages losing themselves to the pressures of the Fade, because it was an element of the setting that was present in codexs and the world's concept, but poorly displayed in DA:O.

I don't know why I'm bothering to comment, though. This argument is so frustrating and eternal and the two specific posters who keep drawing it out are incapable of compromise or middle ground. And maybe that's a good thing, maybe we should admire them for being strong in their convictions, no matter how unimportant the issue in question is. Still, it makes the point of debate a little questionable.

Quoted for excellence. *Persephone approves +100*

[Vit246]

SmokePants wrote...

I like these threads because the wing nuts on this board make me laugh.

Let's imagine an Earth where 1/100 babies born had an inoperable nuclear weapon lodged in their brain that would go off if someone hurt their feelings. If you think for one second that they would be allowed to grow up and walk around as freely and happily as they please, you are a fool of the highest order. And that's just hilarious.

Here's a solution: Don't hurt their feelings. Intentionally anyway.

You know who's not following that guideline? The Chantry and their Templars.

Nobody is suggesting that all mages should be totally free. That is nothing but a non-stop strawman argument. Many agree that mages need training and guidance and a degree of control and whatnot. But here is what needs to be screamed at to the Chantry and their Templars:

"You're doing it wrong!"

People keep going on about how mages are like "nuclear weapons" that can just go off spontaneously at anytime anywhere for any reason when thats just a complete lie. Here's a conundrum. Mages have existed long before the Chantry was created. If mages were as dangerous as "nuclear weapons", how come the world of Thedas is still alive and thriving?

Modifié par Vit246, 16 juin 2011 - 08:36 .

[Zanallen]

Persephone wrote...

Er, yes, he IS a Grey Warden. A Grey Warden who left Vigil's Keep but a Warden. Even the refugees know him as such. (As does Varric)

Yeah, considering the nature of the Joining, there is no way to stop being a Warden. You can abandon your post like Anders did, but he is still technically a Warden. And considering he took those maps, he probably also took official documentation as well.

But really, Bioware just wants to show us that boths sides have their issues and neither is completely innocent nor villains. It is a matter of a relatively small group of individuals who have access to abilities that far exceed those of a normal person. Those abilities just happen to come with a potentially deadly and disastrous side effect in the form of demon posession. The common man has every right to be wary and, given the history of Thedas, I can understand the reaction and policies of the church. That being said, the templars are more than likely a little more hardline than absolutely necessary.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Because DA2 makes no sense.

Sweeping generalizations like that really are beneath you, KOP. 

When it comes to the mage / templar issue, I stand by my statement. DA2 makes little sense.

Persephone wrote...
Er,
yes, he IS a Grey Warden. A Grey Warden who left Vigil's Keep but a
Warden. Even the refugees know him as such. (As does Varric)

No, he is no logner part of the order. He escaped from them.

[Zanallen]

Vit246 wrote...

People keep going on about how mages are like "nuclear weapons" that can just go off spontaneously at anytime anywhere for any reason when thats just a complete lie. Here's a conundrum. Mages have existed long before the Chantry was created. If mages were as dangerous as "nuclear weapons", how come the world of Thedas is still alive and thriving?

'Cause the mages were in complete control over Thedas before the chantry was created? Of course, if the Chantry's theory on the creation of Darkspawn is true, then there is some evidence for the mages almost destroying the world.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zanallen wrote...
But really, Bioware just wants to show us that boths sides have their issues and neither is completely innocent nor villains.

And what they ended up showing is two sides that are full of idiocy, incompetence and lunacy.

[Zanallen]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Zanallen wrote...
But really, Bioware just wants to show us that boths sides have their issues and neither is completely innocent nor villains.

And what they ended up showing is two sides that are full of idiocy, incompetence and lunacy.

Well, Kirkwall does have that whole thin veil thing. But really, from the outside, the same could be said about most political or activist groups in the real world as well.

[Harid]

Zanallen wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

People keep going on about how mages are like "nuclear weapons" that can just go off spontaneously at anytime anywhere for any reason when thats just a complete lie. Here's a conundrum. Mages have existed long before the Chantry was created. If mages were as dangerous as "nuclear weapons", how come the world of Thedas is still alive and thriving?

'Cause the mages were in complete control over Thedas before the chantry was created? Of course, if the Chantry's theory on the creation of Darkspawn is true, then there is some evidence for the mages almost destroying the world.

Because the mages enslaved and dominated everyone and. . .well, people didn't like it and have held them down since.

[TEWR]

Anders will always be a Warden in the sense that he's forever linked to the Darkspawn, forever tainted.

At the same time, he's no longer a Warden because he's no longer doing what a Warden is supposed to.

He's still a Warden yet he's no longer a Warden. Simple as that.

[Zanallen]

Harid wrote...

Because the mages enslaved and dominated everyone and. . .well, people didn't like it and have held them down since.

Pretty much, though I can't say that I don't see where the Chantry is coming from. Mages have to be regulated in some form though the current method is no doubt more hamfisted than necessary.

[hoorayforicecream]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

An abomination is capable of killing dozens though. So... not on the scale of a nuclear weapon, but an order of magnitude worse than a crazy guy with an assault rifle.

I don't really like comparing mages to weapons at all. They are far more versatile than that. Healing magic could save far more people than the random abomination could be able to kill, and in an age without considerable medical science this would be invaluable as a resource - and that's only scratching the surface of the potential of the Creation tree. Throwing that away is foolish.

Nobody said anything about throwing it away. Most people agree that some form of oversight for mages is necessary because of the powers they possess. Whether that's the circle, some sort of governmental oversight, or whatever is up to debate, but letting mages run free heedless of consequences is foolish. Oversight also means that there needs to be some method of control, in case some or all mages go rogue. The fact that they are under constant temptation from demons only adds to this necessity.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 16 juin 2011 - 08:43 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

RosaAquafire wrote...
But I was happy to actually see mages losing themselves to the pressures of the Fade, because it was an element of the setting that was present in codexs and the world's concept, but poorly displayed in DA:O.

I didn't think it was well displayed at all.
Demons could have been subtle agents of temptation, but instead we get the very same "mysterious big evil force" that DA2 claimed it wanted to avoid, that can possess mages in a second, instantly making the concept of resisting temptation, pride, desires and anger void. And not to mention that abominations now all of a sudden seem to have become summonable creatures that show up in hordes.

Abominations were very poorly displayed in Origins, and DA2 made them even more banal.

You're taking away the humanity of the conflict when you are making demons like this. Mysterious monsters who can possess mages instantly and then summon dozens of others.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 juin 2011 - 08:46 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zanallen wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Zanallen wrote...
But really, Bioware just wants to show us that boths sides have their issues and neither is completely innocent nor villains.

And what they ended up showing is two sides that are full of idiocy, incompetence and lunacy.

Well, Kirkwall does have that whole thin veil thing. But really, from the outside, the same could be said about most political or activist groups in the real world as well.

The thin veil is a poor excuse that should not replace plot. What kind of story is it if it only makes sense with an optional obscure codex? Codices should better our perspective, not make the story be sensible.

And no, the real world is much more complicated than this mess.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 juin 2011 - 08:45 .

[Harid]

Zanallen wrote...

Harid wrote...

Because the mages enslaved and dominated everyone and. . .well, people didn't like it and have held them down since.

Pretty much, though I can't say that I don't see where the Chantry is coming from. Mages have to be regulated in some form though the current method is no doubt more hamfisted than necessary.

I don't think that in the times that Dragon Age is portrayed in, it's really that hamfisted.  I think the Chantry would likely be harder on them than we are shown.  Basically DA2 minus the Blood magic and lyrium Idols, with increased competance from the templars.

On the flip side i don't think Bioware is competant enough to write the scenarios the way that reflects the issue that is was.

Modifié par Harid, 16 juin 2011 - 08:48 .

[Zanallen]

Harid wrote...

I don't think that in the times that Dragon Age is portrayed in, it's really that hamfisted.  I think the Chantry would likely be harder on them than we are shown.  Basically DA2 minus the Blood magic and lyrium Idols, with increased competance from the templars.

More hamfisted than absolutely necessary. I think the current system could be scaled back some without issue. That being said, I have no real issues with the current system either. Hell, considering the history of Thedas, the belief that mages created the darkspawn and the threat of abominations and blood magic, I wouldn't be surprised if they killed all mages on sight at first sign of magical ability.

[Zanallen]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The thin veil is a poor excuse that should not replace plot. What kind of story is it if it only makes sense with an optional obscure codex? Codices should better our perspective, not make the story be sensible.

And no, the real world is much more complicated than this mess.

I agree. It should have been expanded on. Hell, the whole game should have been expanded on. But they didn't have time and so we didn't get it. But I am not going to condem the factions because time constraints left us with a poorly implemented conflict in DA2.

And no, human beings really aren't that complex. There are plenty of political, religious and ideological factions in the real world that, when viewed from the outside, are just as ridiculous as the Kirkwall chantry and circle.