1008 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zanallen wrote...
I agree. It should have been expanded on. Hell, the whole game should have been expanded on. But they didn't have time and so we didn't get it. But I am not going to condem the factions because time constraints left us with a poorly implemented conflict in DA2.

Oh I can and do condem a lot of people for this debacle.
But I am not going to sit around and pretend DA2 didn't happen. This is what we got, and I have to base my arguments on that.

And no, human beings really aren't that complex. There are plenty of political, religious and ideological factions in the real world that, when viewed from the outside, are just as ridiculous as the Kirkwall chantry and circle.

Name me one.

And even if that's the case, what could make anyone think this is interesting?
Wasn't the whole point to make the issue grey, mature and very difficult? So how is making almost everyone an imbecile or lunatic achieving that?

[The Baconer]

Zanallen wrote...
Pretty much, though I can't say that I don't see where the Chantry is coming from. Mages have to be regulated in some form though the current method is no doubt more hamfisted than necessary.

Do they have to be? Is it necessary that they bend over to better convenience those who are, bluntly speaking here, inferior?

[Harid]

The Baconer wrote...

Zanallen wrote...
Pretty much, though I can't say that I don't see where the Chantry is coming from. Mages have to be regulated in some form though the current method is no doubt more hamfisted than necessary.

Do they have to be? Is it necessary that they bend over to better convenience those who are, bluntly speaking here, inferior?

If, as a mage, you feel everyone else is inferior to you, you should not be around other people.

Or you should be in the Tevinter Imperium.

Modifié par Harid, 16 juin 2011 - 09:07 .

[The Baconer]

Harid wrote...
If, as a mage, you feel everyone else is inferior to you, you should not be around other people.

Or you should be in the Tevinter Imperium.

How are they not "superior"? Be intellectualy honest here.

[IanPolaris]

Harid wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

Zanallen wrote...
Pretty much, though I can't say that I don't see where the Chantry is coming from. Mages have to be regulated in some form though the current method is no doubt more hamfisted than necessary.

Do they have to be? Is it necessary that they bend over to better convenience those who are, bluntly speaking here, inferior?

If, as a mage, you feel everyone else is inferior to you, you should not be around other people.

Or you should be in the Tevinter Imperium.

I note that magic has always been regulated even if (and in the case of Tevinter especially if) the ruling class was magical.  There are enough valid public safety issues alone that makes it mandatory for mages to get a certain minimum amount of training and of the proper type if only so a stable society could exist.  That in no way justifies the current Circle system as it now stands (or stood pre-Kirkwall).

-Polari9s

[Zanallen]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Oh I can and do condem a lot of people for this debacle.
But I am not going to sit around and pretend DA2 didn't happen. This is what we got, and I have to base my arguments on that.

Name me one.

And even if that's the case, what could make anyone think this is interesting?
Wasn't the whole point to make the issue grey, mature and very difficult? So how is making almost everyone an imbecile or lunatic achieving that?

Kirkwall isn't the whole of the mage/templar conflict. We also have to consider what we know from Origins and the books. And what we know is that mages are potentially quite dangerous and require regulation in some form. We also know that the Dragon Age is based in some ways around medieval Europe and we all know how witches were dealt with then. So, really, the Chantry is far more forgiving than they could be, especially given the history of Thedas.

Name one? How about the Church of Scientology? Or perhaps the Haitian government under Francois "Papa Doc" Duvalier? Hell, North Korea's current government.

And really, it is still a grey issue if both sides are presented as loons. 'Cause you still need to decide if the mages should be controlled or whether they should be free. If both the mages and templars are stupid or crazy, then there is no bias toward one way or another.

[Zanallen]

The Baconer wrote...

Harid wrote...
If, as a mage, you feel everyone else is inferior to you, you should not be around other people.

Or you should be in the Tevinter Imperium.

How are they not "superior"? Be intellectualy honest here.

Because they are far more subject to possession by demons than the average person. There is one way they are inferior.

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...
I note that magic has always been regulated even if (and in the case of Tevinter especially if) the ruling class was magical.  There are enough valid public safety issues alone that makes it mandatory for mages to get a certain minimum amount of training and of the proper type if only so a stable society could exist.  That in no way justifies the current Circle system as it now stands (or stood pre-Kirkwall).

-Polari9s

Indeed. The Ancient Tevinter Imperium could not have flourished and expanded, and still be a magocracy, if the mage oligarchy couldn't regulate itself and avoid infighting and abominations.

But I am afraid I'll jynx Tevinter if I keep talking about it. Seriously, I am worried that now someone will think it's a good idea to make the ancient Tevinter magistrate all abominations who controlled all of Thedas and millions of people via blood magic mind control.

Sigh.

[Zanallen]

The Baconer wrote...

Do they have to be? Is it necessary that they bend over to better convenience those who are, bluntly speaking here, inferior?

Yes. A bunch of superpowered people with the potential to be demonically posessed and the ability to mind control governments should definately be regulated.

[tmp7704]

The Baconer wrote...

How are they not "superior"? Be intellectualy honest here.

Does being a mage mean the person is automatically able to lead armies like a best general, solve scientific problems, compose poems, and perform hundreds of other feats which also depend on being born with certain strenghts of mind?

Having advantage in certain area makes one superior in that certain area. It shouldn't be confused with being superior, period.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Baconer wrote...

Harid wrote...
If, as a mage, you feel everyone else is inferior to you, you should not be around other people.

Or you should be in the Tevinter Imperium.

How are they not "superior"? Be intellectualy honest here.

I see you are taking that whole "Magneto"-stance...

Anyway... They are not superior to normal humans. Mages are superior spellcasters, and that is pretty much the only thing they are inately better at than other humans. Normal humans, on the other hand, are better at not attracting demons. So it is an even tradeoff.

[The Baconer]

Zanallen wrote...
Because they are far more subject to possession by demons than the average person. There is one way they are inferior.

A point rendered moot when a mage is properly trained. Abominations certainly aren't mentioned to be a problem in Tevinter.

And if we're going to make a point system out of 'superiority', the scales would still be tipped toward mages.

[IanPolaris]

Zanallen wrote...

Kirkwall isn't the whole of the mage/templar conflict. We also have to consider what we know from Origins and the books. And what we know is that mages are potentially quite dangerous and require regulation in some form. We also know that the Dragon Age is based in some ways around medieval Europe and we all know how witches were dealt with then. So, really, the Chantry is far more forgiving than they could be, especially given the history of Thedas.

Actually in the actual middle ages "witches" (hedge herbalists often with a smattering of the old religion and/or highly heretical Xstianity) were treated reasonably well (generally ignored with a wink and a nod)....and actual auto-de-fes for witchcraft and the like were very rare.  That only changed during the middle rennessiance and in part it was because of a desperate group of churches that either wanted to keep or establish thelogoical control and purity.

The "witch burning" craze was anything but midaeval and it was spurred in party because outside changes were threatening ecclessiatic dominance.

-Polaris

[Zanallen]

The Baconer wrote...

Zanallen wrote...
Because they are far more subject to possession by demons than the average person. There is one way they are inferior.

A point rendered moot when a mage is properly trained. Abominations certainly aren't mentioned to be a problem in Tevinter.

And if we're going to make a point system out of 'superiority', the scales would still be tipped toward mages.

Uldred was properly trained and he still became an abomination. As for Tevinter, we don't hear much about it at all other than the fact that they are constantly at war with the Qunari.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Baconer wrote...

Zanallen wrote...
Because they are far more subject to possession by demons than the average person. There is one way they are inferior.

A point rendered moot when a mage is properly trained. Abominations certainly aren't mentioned to be a problem in Tevinter.

And if we're going to make a point system out of 'superiority', the scales would still be tipped toward mages.

A normal human can be trained to resist magic aswell.... So it is even again.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 16 juin 2011 - 09:20 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zanallen wrote...
Kirkwall isn't the whole of the mage/templar conflict. We also have to consider what we know from Origins and the books.

And without Origins and the books, DA2 would not have made sense, this I know.

Name one? How about the Church of Scientology? Or perhaps the Haitian government under Francois "Papa Doc" Duvalier? Hell, North Korea's current government.

Scientology has no political relevance and is little different from other religions. Haiti's history is much more complicated than idols and demons and Duvalier is certainly much more than what you are trying to potray him as (for a government is not one person, and never is). Same with North Korea. Infact the regime is quite competent in maintaining its power.

So no, none of your examples are full of idiocy, incompetence and lunacy. They are more complicated than that.

And really, it is still a grey issue if both sides are presented as loons. 'Cause you still need to decide if the mages should be controlled or whether they should be free.

Established by Origins, not DA2. If it was in DA2, I wouldn't have cared in the slightest.

[tmp7704]

The Baconer wrote...

And if we're going to make a point system out of 'superiority', the scales would still be tipped toward mages.

Why would that be?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wait wait wait... So North Korea gets credited as competent at maintaining power, despite their idocy. WHile the Chantry gets discredited for idiocy despite they've maintained power for far longer?

[KnightofPhoenix]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Wait wait wait... So North Korea gets credited as competent at maintaining power, despite their idocy. WHile the Chantry gets discredited for idiocy despite they've maintained power for far longer?

I didn't say the Chantry has always been as idiotic as DA2 potrayed it as.

And no, North Korea is not just idiocy. Its much more complicated than that.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 juin 2011 - 09:27 .

[The Baconer]

Zanallen wrote...
Uldred was properly trained and he still became an abomination.

Indeed, but that's only part of the truth. Why did he become an abomination in the first place?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
I see you are taking that whole "Magneto"-stance...

Anyway...
They are not superior to normal humans. Mages are superior spellcasters,
and that is pretty much the only thing they are inately better at than
other humans. Normal humans, on the other hand, are better at not
attracting demons. So it is an even tradeoff.

You're being intellectually dishonest. It's not as simple as a mage being a superior spellcaster, especially when you consider what a spellcaster can do in the first place. Mages can be anything a regular human can be, and more.

For example, you have a human and mage, both are exceptional warriors. Their experience in conventional fighting is for the most part, equal. However, the mage can use magic to enhance his physical abilities even furthur. He can make himself faster, more hardy, stronger.

[Zanallen]

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually in the actual middle ages "witches" (hedge herbalists often with a smattering of the old religion and/or highly heretical Xstianity) were treated reasonably well (generally ignored with a wink and a nod)....and actual auto-de-fes for witchcraft and the like were very rare.  That only changed during the middle rennessiance and in part it was because of a desperate group of churches that either wanted to keep or establish thelogoical control and purity.

The "witch burning" craze was anything but midaeval and it was spurred in party because outside changes were threatening ecclessiatic dominance.

-Polaris

The classic witch hunt period took place during the late middle ages into the early modern period. About 1480 to 1750 or so. Before that the outright belief in witches was outlawed. Witches straight did not exist in the eyes of the government.

Of course, in Thedas, mages are all too real. And the history of Thedas states that mages ruled the Tevinter Imperium while popular theory is that said mages created the darkspawn by blaspheming against the Maker. Honestly, given this common belief along with the threat of blood magic and abominations, I am surprised that mages aren't outright persecuted and killed on sight.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Baconer wrote...

Zanallen wrote...
Uldred was properly trained and he still became an abomination.

Indeed, but that's only part of the truth. Why did he become an abomination in the first place?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
I see you are taking that whole "Magneto"-stance...

Anyway...
They are not superior to normal humans. Mages are superior spellcasters,
and that is pretty much the only thing they are inately better at than
other humans. Normal humans, on the other hand, are better at not
attracting demons. So it is an even tradeoff.

You're being intellectually dishonest. It's not as simple as a mage being a superior spellcaster, especially when you consider what a spellcaster can do in the first place. Mages can be anything a regular human can be, and more.

For example, you have a human and mage, both are exceptional warriors. Their experience in conventional fighting is for the most part, equal. However, the mage can use magic to enhance his physical abilities even furthur. He can make himself faster, more hardy, stronger.

Then the mage himself isn't superior. Otherwise a man drugging himself before a contest is superior aswell.

[Zanallen]

The Baconer wrote...

Indeed, but that's only part of the truth. Why did he become an abomination in the first place?

Doesn't matter. You said that training would prevent a mage from becoming an abomination. Uldred is a trained mage who becomes an abomination. Why doesn't matter as there are plenty of situations with or without regulation that can drive a mage to becoming an abomination. However, with regulation, there is a chance to track down and stop the abomination before it can cause mass damage.

[Harid]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

Zanallen wrote...
Uldred was properly trained and he still became an abomination.

Indeed, but that's only part of the truth. Why did he become an abomination in the first place?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
I see you are taking that whole "Magneto"-stance...

Anyway...
They are not superior to normal humans. Mages are superior spellcasters,
and that is pretty much the only thing they are inately better at than
other humans. Normal humans, on the other hand, are better at not
attracting demons. So it is an even tradeoff.

You're being intellectually dishonest. It's not as simple as a mage being a superior spellcaster, especially when you consider what a spellcaster can do in the first place. Mages can be anything a regular human can be, and more.

For example, you have a human and mage, both are exceptional warriors. Their experience in conventional fighting is for the most part, equal. However, the mage can use magic to enhance his physical abilities even furthur. He can make himself faster, more hardy, stronger.

Then the mage himself isn't superior. Otherwise a man drugging himself before a contest is superior aswell.

Not to mention dual classes don't exist in the Dragon Age lore anyway, so this exceptional warrior mage doesn't exist anyway.