1008 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

The Baconer wrote...

For example, you have a human and mage, both are exceptional warriors. Their experience in conventional fighting is for the most part, equal. However, the mage can use magic to enhance his physical abilities even furthur. He can make himself faster, more hardy, stronger.

How does the mage achieve equal experience in conventional fighting and yet has also time to train his/her magic potential to enhance the combat potential even further? Rather than use it to catch up with the advantage the regular warrior gets by spending all the time training combat, while the mage divides his attention between different fields.

You speak of being intellectualy dishonest, but that's pretty much what your example is.

[IanPolaris]

Zanallen wrote...

The classic witch hunt period took place during the late middle ages into the early modern period. About 1480 to 1750 or so. Before that the outright belief in witches was outlawed. Witches straight did not exist in the eyes of the government.

Which means they were ignored just as I said.  As for why Mages aren't killed outright by the chantry, I can give two reasons:

Early on, I strongly suspect (and this is borne out at least in part by the "History of the Circle Codex) that the very earily Andrastian Chantry/Cult was a lot more mage-friendly than it has since become.  Indeed Haven which is a heretical offshoot of the early Andrastian Cult has no restrictions for mages living along side mundanes at all!  Certainly you won't find the justifications in the Chant of Light itself without some serious (and eyebrow raising) "interpretataions".

The second reason can be summed up in one word:  Qunari.  Without magic,the Qunari would have overrun Thedas a long time ago.

-Polaris

[blaidfiste]

 I would certainly hope not.  

At the beginning of "The Last Straw"I supported Meredith's attempt to search the mages for evidence of blood magic.  In the killer's lair, I found the letter from the circle, signed by "O."  No issue so far.  Then
I may have the sequence wrong but you get the idea1) Anders appears, babbling, eyes glowing in front of Meredith, deep voice indicating posession.2) Chantry explodes.  Maker nooo!!!  Elfina nooooo!3) Anders takes full responsibility for the deed (in front of Meredith)4) Meredith: Right of Annulment5) Sebastian: The culprit is right in front of you6) Meredith: /Derp.  Chantry destroyed by magic, people will demand retribution, I will give it to them.  Kill all mages but I will leave Anders' fate in your hands champion. /Derp7) In the Templar hall.  Mages: we surrender just don't kill us.  Meredith: no, die8) Orsino: We give up, search us, just revoke the annulment.  Meredith: no, die9) Before the final fight Cullen (not the Champion of Kirkwall) get's to make the stand and defy Meredith.
On the other hand Orsino resorts to blood magic after we win our first battle together.  You'd think he'll be inspired by our win.  He also manages to not kill a single templar.  Way to fail Orsino.

My playthroughs can be pro templar or pro mage but they all end with me supporting the mages because it's obvious that Meredith is nuts.

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...
Which means they were ignored just as I said.  As for why Mages aren't killed outright by the chantry, I can give two reasons:

Early on, I strongly suspect (and this is borne out at least in part by the "History of the Circle Codex) that the very earily Andrastian Chantry/Cult was a lot more mage-friendly than it has since become.  Indeed Haven which is a heretical offshoot of the early Andrastian Cult has no restrictions for mages living along side mundanes at all!  Certainly you won't find the justifications in the Chant of Light itself without some serious (and eyebrow raising) "interpretataions".

The second reason can be summed up in one word:  Qunari.  Without magic,the Qunari would have overrun Thedas a long time ago.

-Polaris

I think there is another reason. Power.

If mages are eradicated, the Chantry would not have as much reason to sustain a large Templar force, monopolize lyrium and it would probably reduce its income (I am assuming they get money from this other than stipends from states, otherwise how can they maintain the system?).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 juin 2011 - 09:42 .

[The Baconer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Then the mage himself isn't superior. Otherwise a man drugging himself before a contest is superior aswell.

The analogy doesn't work at all. A closer one would to say a man is able to will himself into being stronger or faster before a contest is superior as well. And, IMO, he would be.

Harid wrote...
Not to mention dual classes don't exist in the Dragon Age lore anyway, so this exceptional warrior mage doesn't exist anyway.

First of all, Arcane Warrior.

Second, that's a game mechanic and entirely irrelevant in this conversation. There's nothing in the lore that states a mage can't train in the arcane arts and martial combat if he pleases.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The only thing keeping a mage from practicing combat, is the amount of time it takes to practice his magic. It is apparently a very time consuming effort to master the magical arts, and mages simply don't have time to practice both to perfection.

And again, if the mage uses magic to augment himself, he isn't superior on his own. A mage is dependant on his magic to be superior in any field, which makes him inferior in my eyes, since a normal man, needs only to depent on himself.

EDIT: and apparently the only thing Arcane Warriors were good at, was augmenting the magical energies to help them wear their armor, since they simply did not have the physical strength themselves to waer it. They weren't magnificent warriors skilled to perfection with a blade or anything. They were simply mages in armor.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 16 juin 2011 - 09:44 .

[tmp7704]

The problem with the mage+warrior example is, it basically says "a person who is excellent warrior *and* a mage is superior to a person who is 'just' an excellent warrior" Which is well, duh. A+B > A.

[Harid]

The Baconer wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Then the mage himself isn't superior. Otherwise a man drugging himself before a contest is superior aswell.

The analogy doesn't work at all. A closer one would to say a man is able to will himself into being stronger or faster before a contest is superior as well. And, IMO, he would be.

Harid wrote...
Not to mention dual classes don't exist in the Dragon Age lore anyway, so this exceptional warrior mage doesn't exist anyway.

First of all, Arcane Warrior.

Second, that's a game mechanic and entirely irrelevant in this conversation. There's nothing in the lore that states a mage can't train in the arcane arts and martial combat if he pleases.

Arcane Warriors were on par with a S&S warrior in terms of non magical combat.

Let that sink in a little bit.

Especially since S&S warriors were the worst melee combatants in DA:O.

What made Arcane Warriors good , well, besides Awakening, was their inability to die, not their martial prowess.

[The Baconer]

tmp7704 wrote...
How does the mage achieve equal experience in conventional fighting and yet has also time to train his/her magic potential to enhance the combat potential even further? Rather than use it to catch up with the advantage the regular warrior gets by spending all the time training combat, while the mage divides his attention between different fields.

You speak of being intellectualy dishonest, but that's pretty much what your example is.

How is it not possible? A mage like the one I described would probably be studying the kind of magic that would directly benefit him as a warrior. As in, the kind of magic that enhances his physical abilities. I never said anything about the mage mastering every possible facet of the arcane.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The only thing keeping a mage from practicing combat, is the amount of
time it takes to practice his magic. It is apparently a very time
consuming effort to master the magical arts, and mages simply don't have
time to practice both to perfection.

See above.

And again, if the mage uses
magic to augment himself, he isn't superior on his own. A mage is
dependant on his magic to be superior in any field, which makes him
inferior in my eyes, since a normal man, needs only to depent on
himself.

If you're going to argue ideals, instead of actual results.

Modifié par The Baconer, 16 juin 2011 - 09:49 .

[Ryzaki]

Filament wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Mages aren't even remotely comparable with nuclear weapons. Just saying.

Nope. They can brainwash you, let demons infest your body, or drain all the blood from you from a distance. 

Much more deadly and efficent than nuclear weapons. At least with those your opponent might end up hurting himself too. 

More deadly?

Yes. Unlike a Nuke someone doens't have to bother being careful with them. 

[CulturalGeekGirl]

The problem I have with the structure of most modern "moral choice" games is that there are two ways to go with them. The black vs white and the grey vs gray... but neither of them offer a place for the reasonable person. Ok, so Templars vs. Mages is supposed to be grey on gray. Fine. I get that. But then they make you choose a side when they explicitly tell you the middle is better.

I am always annoyed by games and stories where there's an obvious fix, an obvious way all this conflict and bloodshed could be avoided, and they don't give you access to it, because you are being forced to take a hardline side on one side or the other, when you've been told explicitly by the developers that taking a hardline on either side isn't a good idea.

I want the Circles cleaned up - visitation rights, a clearly understandable system for earning posts outside the tower, freedom to marry, a decent amount of contact with the outside world. I want non-chantry oversight boards composed of elves and dwarves to investigate mage or templar reports of the abuses by others. I want a bunch of entirely reasonable things that, if I had gotten them back in DA:O, none of this crap would have happened. But they don't give me the chance to say "Freedom for some, tiny Ferelden flags for others!" Instead they say "Pick a side, we're at war... by the way, if you're confident in your side, you're wrong."

Now, I side with the mages and support Anders because I thought... thought... that DA2 displayed clearly the fact that the Chantry wasn't going to change without some big event of some kind knocking it out of its rut. But is the fact that I get that impression from the story just an accident of the writing? Was I not supposed to get that idea at all? 

Until a dev comes down and says explicitly "neither side is right, neither side is wrong," then I can at least feel clever when I make my own choice. I can feel strongly about it, I can think "ooh, I've seen through the layers of obfuscation to get to the point where I can see that this side is a tiny bit more right than the other one, in the long run." After I'm told that both sides are supposed to be exactly the same amount of right or wrong, I start to think that all the little nuances I've picked up that make me so sure of my own position are accidents, rather than part of the subtle weaving of a tale that we're meant to think about.

Essentially, I guess I'd rather they say "which answer is correct depends a lot on your pesronal philosophy." Saying that none of the deicsions are better than the others makes me wonder why I should bother making any decisions at all.

EDIT: I'm just feeling slightly glum today, so I'm being overly negative about the whole thing, I'm sure. I'll be back leading revolutions by tomorrow, or whenever the weather clears. Damn shoggoths.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 16 juin 2011 - 09:49 .

[IanPolaris]

The Baconer wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...
How does the mage achieve equal experience in conventional fighting and yet has also time to train his/her magic potential to enhance the combat potential even further? Rather than use it to catch up with the advantage the regular warrior gets by spending all the time training combat, while the mage divides his attention between different fields.

You speak of being intellectualy dishonest, but that's pretty much what your example is.

How is it not possible? A mage like the one I described would probably be studying the kind of magic that would directly benefit him as a warrior. As in, the kind of magic that enhances his physical abilities.

Because the physics of Thedas (as defined by the game rules) say it's not generally possible.   Basically if you wanted to use your magical talent in order to fight like a warrior, you had to sacrifice your abililty to cast spells (at least at any reasonable cost) and channel the magic within you with highly specialized spells that only approximated what a trained warrior could do.

In short, if you just look at Arcane Warrior, if you went "warrior mode", it was meant to preclude you from casting and vice versa.

The only way around that was to "cheat" by using bloodmagic, but that doesn't make mages or the Arcane Warrior overpowered.  It makes bloodmagic overpowered, but everyone already knew that.

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
More deadly and efficient than something that can eliminate millions of people in an instant and turn the area of impact into an unliveable nuclear wasteland for decades? How?

Nuclear bombs can cause radiation that affects more than just the designated area. If you're close enough it can affect you to. (We're talking about the big nukes here right?) 

It's much more efficent. Why bother controlling a nuke to threaten a leader when you can control him? Brainwashing will always to me be the most potent weapon. 

[tmp7704]

The Baconer wrote...

How is it not possible? A mage like the one I described would probably be studying the kind of magic that would directly benefit him as a warrior. As in, the kind of magic that enhances his physical abilities.

How many professional athletes and soldiers also happen to be highly regarded scientists with degrees?

Achieving excellence in any field takes time which has to be spent to study the field. When you spend this time, you can't use it to study something else.

The mage in your example may study magic which will enhance his physical abilities. But by taking the time to study he will be spending less time actively enhancing these same physical abilities through physical training.

[Harid]

tmp7704 wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

How is it not possible? A mage like the one I described would probably be studying the kind of magic that would directly benefit him as a warrior. As in, the kind of magic that enhances his physical abilities.

How many professional athletes and soldiers also happen to be highly regarded scientists with degrees?

Achieving excellence in any field takes time which has to be spent to study the field. When you spend this time, you can't use it to study something else.

The mage in your example may study magic which will enhance his physical abilities. But by taking the time to study he will be spending less time actively enhancing these same physical abilities through physical training.

Buhbuhbuh they do it in comic books!

People don't realize how hard it is to excel in one thing, let alone two that are diametric to themselves.

Look at something like MMA.  There is not one top ten MMA fighter that has a second job that has nothing to do with MMA.  It's impossible to split your focus like that and succeed.

Modifié par Harid, 16 juin 2011 - 09:54 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...
How many professional athletes and soldiers also happen to be highly regarded scientists with degrees?

Putin is an excellent law graduate, KGB, judo fighter, politician, President and prime minsiter

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 juin 2011 - 09:55 .

[Furtled]

Wulfram wrote...
They wanted siding with the Templars to be a reasonable choice, rather than having supporting the mages be a no brainer.

The problem is that they did this by having mages act randomly evil all the time, instead of having the Templars act with some semblance of rationality.

This - I get what they were aiming for, but given the balance of abusive templars the game only managed to cement my opinion that the Circle as is needed to go.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Playest wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
So there would be no moral difference between imprisoning legaly insane and dangerous people and something arbitrary like people with a foot size over 12?

Hmmm well said. But it think the question is closer to locking up people with big feet because people with big feet are more likely to go insane. Even if for the sake of argument that was true. I dont think it would be moral, practical yes but not moral.

How would it be practical? Or do you mean convenient? I look at it simply as a case of finding someone guilty by mere association.

My first origins play through was as a mage so one of the very first
experiences with the game was talking to Owian about becoming tranquil, I feel
in love with the game when over the course of the conversation he took me from
the default "I can't believe the did this horrible thing" to actually
wondering what it meant to be a happy and fulfilled human.  

In contrast they waved the handled the "Tranquility" quest at the
begging of DA2 completely threw away the complexity and moral ambiguity established
in the original.

Happiness and fulfilment are actually emotions. I find it odd that he would make you think that. Looking at Owain at the Circle Tower during the Broken Circle quest, I felt that's closer to what he really is.

Karl's charecterization in DA2, to me, was actually closer to how I perceived it - especially the contrast when Anders temporarily brings out his earlier self.

[Harid]

Furtled wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
They wanted siding with the Templars to be a reasonable choice, rather than having supporting the mages be a no brainer.

The problem is that they did this by having mages act randomly evil all the time, instead of having the Templars act with some semblance of rationality.

This - I get what they were aiming for, but given the balance of abusive templars the game only managed to cement my opinion that the Circle as is needed to go.

There were more rational Templars in DA:2 than there were rational mages.  The problem was largely, how they showed Templars to be in DA:O.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Harid wrote...
There were more rational Templars in DA:2 than there were rational mages.  The problem was largely, how they showed Templars to be in DA:O.

Other than Thrask and Kenan, who else? I htought Cullen was too, until Act 3.

And I felt Templars were relatively well done in Origins, but could have been fleshed out more. You had Gregoir who I believe genuinely cared about mages under his care. You have a Templar praying for both the lost Templars and lost mages who died. You had Ser Bryant. Ser Otto....etc

Both sides needed to be fleshed out more and I expected more delving in Chantry and Circle inner-divisions, especially with the epic foreshadowing in Awakening. But we got nothing instead.

[Deztyn]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Essentially, I guess I'd rather they say "which answer is correct depends a lot on your pesronal philosophy." Saying that none of the deicsions are better than the others makes me wonder why I should bother making any decisions at all.

The choice matters to you. It's been said many times before, it boils down to which you think is more valuable; freedom for the few, or security for the many.

If you think that the mages have to suffer to ensure the safety of the masses -- you're right.

If you think the mages deserve their freedom even if that puts the common people at greater risk -- obviously, you're wrong you're right.

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Putin is an excellent law graduate, KGB, judo fighter, politician, President and prime minsiter

Of course. What Russian in their right mind wouldn't graduate Putin?

It's funny how these highly versatile leaders all tend to pop up in countries where the people and press isn't generally allowed to speak their minds. And even if all the reports were actually true, that still makes what, a dozen such individuals on a planet with 6+ billions?

[The Baconer]

tmp7704 wrote...
How many professional athletes and soldiers also happen to be highly regarded scientists with degrees?

Not even coming close to what I'm talking about but okay.

Achieving excellence in any field takes time which has to be spent to study the field. When you spend this time, you can't use it to study something else.

The mage in your example may study magic which will enhance his physical abilities. But by taking the time to study he will be spending less time actively enhancing these same physical abilities through physical training.

A warrior mage's field of study would be directly related to being a warrior mage, not trying to be an expert mage and an expert warrior all at once. A sniper isn't only trained in being able to aim and pull the trigger. He has to know how to sight it, how to maintain it, how to live off the land, how to operate in areas with minimal friendly contact, etc. It's about the pieces that make up the whole.

Modifié par The Baconer, 16 juin 2011 - 10:06 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Putin is an excellent law graduate, KGB, judo fighter, politician, President and prime minsiter

Of course. What Russian in their right mind wouldn't graduate Putin?

It's funny how these highly versatile leaders all tend to pop up in countries where the people and press isn't generally allowed to speak their minds. And even if all the reports were actually true, that still makes what, a dozen such individuals on a planet with 6+ billions?

You know I was tongue in cheek, but I highly doubt Putin faked his law degree when he was in his 20s or his judo skills.

[Harid]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Harid wrote...
There were more rational Templars in DA:2 than there were rational mages.  The problem was largely, how they showed Templars to be in DA:O.

Other than Thrask and Kenan, who else? I htought Cullen was too, until Act 3.

And I felt Templars were relatively well done in Origins, but could have been fleshed out more. You had Gregoir who I believe genuinely cared about mages under his care. You have a Templar praying for both the lost Templars and lost mages who died. You had Ser Bryant. Ser Otto....etc

Both sides needed to be fleshed out more and I expected more delving in Chantry and Circle inner-divisions, especially with the epic foreshadowing in Awakening. But we got nothing instead.

K, now flip that for mages, and exclude family.

The issue I suppose, was the lack of a Templar origin to humanize them much akin to what mages got with the mage origin.