1008 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

I honestly can't see why people are saying the revolution will fail miserably, for one very good reason.

The Templars have abandoned the chantry as much as the mages. The Chantry had lost their sword arm. Now there are thousands of lyrium addicts unleashed from the chantry in a mad quest to hunt all mages. So that's thousands of people who are about to go into lyrium withdrawl. They will have to either to return to the chantry and follow chantry law concerning mages....which doesn't seem likely by the end of the game, or to loot, pillage, and likely rape across the countryside to get the coin to buy their own lyrium, or steal it from the chantry stores.

When you get thousands of addicts pillaging and destroying the lives of the innocent people around Thedas so they can continue their mage hunt, suddenly it seems like the mages aren't such bad guys as these templars say they are. Mages can gain a lot of popular support because of this.

If you think long-term, this revolution actually has a shot of succeeding.

[Harid]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Harid wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Harid wrote...

I agree with CGG when she says that the idea of revolution has to be in the air.

But simultaneously, you need a guy to humanize you. A guy the common man can follow. A guy that regular people say, "Hey, that guys not like the stereotypical mage at all, he completely disproves everything you say."

Mages don't got that guy.

A Saskia so to speak. Which is why the Lodge of Sorceresses >>> DA mages.

That person doens't have to be a mage. It would in fact be preferrable if it's a "normal" charismatic human, or a statesman whose country is strong enough to coordinate a large scale war that is not solely defensive (which imo excludes both Anora and Alistair at the moment).

My computer can't play The Witcher II.

I still argue that the reason such a person can't be set up is because they're going to be the DA3 protagonist, and thus must be shape-able by the player. We can't know too much about them yet.

This is one of those narrative causality things. (P.S. KoP - Read Discworld!) 

I'm of the opinion that Hawke will be the DA3 protagonists, but eh.
If I am not playing a mage I feel like. ..I would be a damn fool to support mages. . .and if I was playing mages, the opposite, which is why I have a problem with that person being you.  You would be essentially working against your best interests at times.

[Herr Uhl]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Rosa Parkes I know so I'll answer to that. The Civil Rights movement predated Rosa's actions. In fact, the Civil Right's leadership used Rosa's actions as a rallying cry.

There's no Mage leadership.

I think that resolutionists and possibly libertarians would see themselves as the "Magi Rights Movement".

So, it predates Kirkwall.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ CGG
You are assuming that Aequitarians will remain Aequitarians in principle during the frenzy of revolution and not become something similar to Resolutionists, the ones who wanted all this from the very beginning. I believe that, in the frenzy of violence in a war they were never trained to fight, most will adopt ideals and methods similar to Resolutionists. That is if they can manage to resist demons in the first place.

Second, that compromise between Aequitarians and Libertarians will only be really relevant if the revolution wins in the first place. Furthermore, there is really little stopping them from killing each other after that, and have Revolutionary fanatics a la Jacobins (though I doubt they will be successful enough to even reach that point).

Thirdly. I believe mages like Resolutionists are going to target cities, to pressure for change. I believe mages going out of control will also do that. I really don't see that much point in mages just locking themselves in their towers, while Templars eliminate one tower after the other. They would be stupid if they stayed there. Also, most Towers seem to be in cities in fact:

Circle Tower, Lake Calenhad (Ferelden)
Gallows, Kirkwall (Free Marches)
Circle of Magi, Starkhaven (Free Marches)
Circle of Magi, Ansburg (between the Free Marches and Antiva)
Circle of Magi, Ostwick (Free Marches)
Circle of Magi, Antiva
Circle of Magi, Montsimmard (Orlais)
Circle of Magi, Nevarra City (Nevarra)
Circle of Magi, Dairsmuid (Rivain)
Circle of Magi, Hossberg (Anderfels)
Circle of Magi, Cumberland (Nevarra)

From the wiki.

[Harid]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Rosa Parkes I know so I'll answer to that. The Civil Rights movement predated Rosa's actions. In fact, the Civil Right's leadership used Rosa's actions as a rallying cry.

There's no Mage leadership.

I think that resolutionists and possibly libertarians would see themselves as the "Magi Rights Movement".

So, it predates Kirkwall.

But they have no leadership.  Which was his point, and the point you seemingly missed.

We have yet to meet anyone from either branch, nor anyone claiming to be a leader of either faction.

They are just mages amongst other mages to us right now.

Modifié par Harid, 16 juin 2011 - 11:59 .

[Deztyn]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

No apologies needed. I was not and if I am to play the game again with a non-mage, which I doubt will happen anytime soon, I'll most probably side with the Templars, though still think Meredith is an imbecile.

I am questioning the entire ending, not any one choice

Fair enough.
But it would be better to play it with a pro-templar mage. The ending sequence makes sense that way.

Modifié par Deztyn, 16 juin 2011 - 11:59 .

[Herr Uhl]

Harid wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

I think that resolutionists and possibly libertarians would see themselves as the "Magi Rights Movement".

So, it predates Kirkwall.

But they have no leadership.  Which was his point, and the point you seemingly missed.

What leaders where there in the civil rights movement then? (before Rosa) I'm horribly bad at american history, and freely admit it. so feel free to enlighten me.

That nobody has risen in our perception may be because of that we've only seen Kirkwall.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 17 juin 2011 - 12:00 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

dragonflight288 wrote...
When you get thousands of addicts pillaging and destroying the lives of the innocent people around Thedas so they can continue their mage hunt, suddenly it seems like the mages aren't such bad guys as these templars say they are. Mages can gain a lot of popular support because of this.
 

Well first, I doubt that's going to happen. A more likely thing to happen is that Templars take the Chantry's lyrium by force. In essence, they pull a coup d'etat. 

Also, that's more likely to make people say "FU" to both mages and Templars and decide to bring both in line. Which while is a good outcome imo, is not what the revolution set out to do.

The revolution can be convenient, even if it didnt' mean to be so for sure. But when I say it will likely fail, it means that mages are not likely to win.

[Harid]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Harid wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

I think that resolutionists and possibly libertarians would see themselves as the "Magi Rights Movement".

So, it predates Kirkwall.

But they have no leadership.  Which was his point, and the point you seemingly missed.

What leaders where there in the civil rights movement then? (before Rosa) I'm horribly bad at american history, and freely admit it. so feel free to enlighten me.

That nobody has risen in our perception may be because of that we've only seen Kirkwall.

MLK Jr., Ella Baker, A. Philip Randolph, T. R. M. Howard, . . . there were a lot of groups led by different people that were pushing for Civil rights prior to the bus boycotts that increased noteriety. 

While one could say the some for mages, we don't know these people, nor were they brought up, so mages appear not to have leadership.

Yet, even during the times of Rosa Parks, and the subsequent bus boycotts, leadership was known in the Civil Rights movement.

Modifié par Harid, 17 juin 2011 - 12:09 .

[Foolsfolly]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Harid wrote...
No such compromise is being chartered by mages.  They just want their freedom, and damn everyone else, which is why their revolution will fail.  You can't go for your freedom like this without taking into account the feeling of the majority.  If you don't have thier support, you will pay the price when you are crushed by the people who they do support, i.e. the chantry.

Some mage genius might show up and make sense of the situation, but I doubt it's possible.

I agree, I am on the side that says that the revolution is very likely to fail miserably, unless some extra-ordinary event happens (Flemeth the :big change", Qunari invasion..etc), which is very likely.
Hopefully it won't be the same old cliche of enemies allyign to fight a bigger enemy, I am tired of that.

Of course it'll be that, dude. Why else foreshadow the rising, the big change, and all that nonsense while leaving the Mage plot unfinished? And with how well they've handled the consquences of choice in the series so far do you honestly think they'll give the war multiple endings?

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

No such compromise is being
chartered by mages.  They just want their freedom, and damn everyone
else, which is why their revolution will fail.  You can't go for your
freedom like this without taking into account the feeling of the
majority.  If you don't have thier support, you will pay the price when
you are crushed by the people who they do support, i.e. the chantry.

I've
said this since DA:O.  I get that the mages want freedom, but they
aren't chartering any ideas on who is gonna protect the people from a
crazed Abomination setting up something like the Blackmarsh or who's
gonna start a cabal of mages from trying to create a new Imperium. 
Without drafting those ideas, THEN revolting, the common man would have
to be a damned fool to back mages, and I'd have to be a damned fool to
think mages are going to succeed at this fruitless endeavor.

I've
said from jump mages need a talker to get people to understand, a
talker that does not confirm the feelings people have for mages at this
current time.  They have no one doing that at this current time.

And
here is where we get the problem of the game being rushed and there not
being enough time for writing. A lot of this stuff is buried in the
codex.

The majority of mages right now are a coalition between
the Aequitarians (reform within the Chantry/Circle system) and the
Loyalists (no reform necessary, do what the Chantry says). This implies
that together, those two factions comprise 50%+ of mages, but that
neither one of those factions has a majority on their own. Now, based on
the mages we've talked to in the game, I'm going to make some guesses
as to the percentages.

25% loyalists, 35% Aequitarians, 25%
LIbertarians (inc 5% Resolutionists), 5% Isolationists, 10% Lucrosians.

These
are just guesses, but they're logical ones withing the limits of what
we've been told. Now, the thing is, I believe that the majority of mages
right now are Aequitarians, and the point of the Kirkwall Revolt was to
get the Aequitarians to realize that they have to defend themselves
against the Templars. That things have swung a bit too far in the
Templar's favor, and that breaking free, at least for now, is really
necessary.

Now, I don't think that the majority of Aequitarians
are going to just discard their belief that the circle is useful after
this revolt is over. I think that there will be a big internal struggle
between the Aequitarian/Libertarian coalition that this revolution seems
to have created. So yes, I think the mages will try to broker
compromise. Anders wasn't trying to broker a neat compromise, but he's
bloody Anders. 

I see this playing out differently than everyone
else. Most mage towers don't seem to be in the middle of cities, they
seem to be out in the middle of nowhere. So rather than causing mass
bloodshed, I see the fighting being rather more contained, with mages
either taking control of the circle towers themselves and demanding
emmissaries be set in, to small groups of mages fleeing and setting up
camps elsewhere. I see no reason why the fighting should cover every
inch of ground in Thedas, or involve normal people very often. Attacks
on Templar barracks, yest, but I don't think that chantry bombs are
going to become a major part of this. Indeed, the only reason the one
that happened happened was because it was uniquely strategic, in a way I
don't think any future ones will be.

I wish we were getting our
Wardens back for DA3, not because I wub my Warden so much, but because
she could sort this out so damn easily it's ridiculous. She has that
whole Hero Aura, and a history of accomplishing things, and a voice that
can be heard loudly, that speaks for the rights of elves and mages, and
the independence of Ferelden.

This is a world that needs
protagonists, and despite what people say, Anders wasn't one. But he's
met both Hawke and the Warden, so he has faith that such people are out
there.

Six characters in search of an author. Two characters in
search of a country song. A story in search of a protagonist.

It saddens me greatly that you know so much about the Fraternities and that BioWare has seemingly abandoned them when they could have really added so much to this story.

Aside from that your Warden couldn't get involved. Wardens must stay neutral to all things.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 17 juin 2011 - 12:19 .

[DPSSOC]

Harid wrote...
While one could say the some for mages, we don't know these people, nor were they brought up, so mages appear not to have leadership.

The Mages need an Xavier, also a Magneto to make the Xavier seem more reasonable and provide incentive to work with him.

[Harid]

DPSSOC wrote...

Harid wrote...
While one could say the some for mages, we don't know these people, nor were they brought up, so mages appear not to have leadership.

The Mages need an Xavier, also a Magneto to make the Xavier seem more reasonable and provide incentive to work with him.

Basically.  I stated as such earlier.  I agree.

[Sherbet Lemon]

Herr Uhl wrote...

What leaders where there in the civil rights movement then? (before Rosa) I'm horribly bad at american history, and freely admit it. so feel free to enlighten me.

Well, there was Bayard Rustin, who predated Dr. King and was the chief organizer for the March on Washington.

Modifié par Village Idiot, 17 juin 2011 - 12:15 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Foolsfolly wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Hopefully it won't be the same old cliche of enemies allyign to fight a bigger enemy, I am tired of that.

Of course it'll be that, dude. Why else foreshadow the rising, the big change, and all that nonsense while leaving the Mage plot unfinished? And with how well they've handled the consquences of choice in the series so far do you honestly think they'll give the war multiple endings?

I am hoping for at least the option to side with that big change if it's to my liking (esp siding with Morrigan and influencing course of events). Though typing this, I realize I am soundign a bit naive.

[Foolsfolly]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ CGG
You are assuming that Aequitarians will remain Aequitarians in principle during the frenzy of revolution and not become something similar to Resolutionists, the ones who wanted all this from the very beginning. I believe that, in the frenzy of violence in a war they were never trained to fight, most will adopt ideals and methods similar to Resolutionists. That is if they can manage to resist demons in the first place.

Second, that compromise between Aequitarians and Libertarians will only be really relevant if the revolution wins in the first place. Furthermore, there is really little stopping them from killing each other after that, and have Revolutionary fanatics a la Jacobins (though I doubt they will be successful enough to even reach that point).

Thirdly. I believe mages like Resolutionists are going to target cities, to pressure for change. I believe mages going out of control will also do that. I really don't see that much point in mages just locking themselves in their towers, while Templars eliminate one tower after the other. They would be stupid if they stayed there. Also, most Towers seem to be in cities in fact:

Circle Tower, Lake Calenhad (Ferelden)
Gallows, Kirkwall (Free Marches)
Circle of Magi, Starkhaven (Free Marches)
Circle of Magi, Ansburg (between the Free Marches and Antiva)
Circle of Magi, Ostwick (Free Marches)
Circle of Magi, Antiva
Circle of Magi, Montsimmard (Orlais)
Circle of Magi, Nevarra City (Nevarra)
Circle of Magi, Dairsmuid (Rivain)
Circle of Magi, Hossberg (Anderfels)
Circle of Magi, Cumberland (Nevarra)

From the wiki.

Sadly KoP, I must say this post forwards nothing because it's all thought experiment. Not a terribly bad thought experiment but we've yet to find out anything about any plan by any mage. Even Ander's plan seems to have ended at "And then the Chantry's destroyed so there's no compromise and the....and then the mages are free....forever."

[KnightofPhoenix]

DPSSOC wrote...

Harid wrote...
While one could say the some for mages, we don't know these people, nor were they brought up, so mages appear not to have leadership.

The Mages need an Xavier, also a Magneto to make the Xavier seem more reasonable and provide incentive to work with him.

Actually, if mages get a Magneto that can build a nation like Genosha, that could work.

Ideally, they don't need either, but someone in between (though I like Xavier and Magneto a lot). but really mages so far demosntrated that they don't deserve either.

[Harid]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Harid wrote...
While one could say the some for mages, we don't know these people, nor were they brought up, so mages appear not to have leadership.

The Mages need an Xavier, also a Magneto to make the Xavier seem more reasonable and provide incentive to work with him.

Actually, if mages get a Magneto that can build a nation like Genosha, that could work.

Ideally, they don't need either, but someone in between (though I like Xavier and Magneto a lot). but really mages so far demosntrated that they don't deserve either.

I kinda think if the mages do create a Genosha (one of my "mages winning scenarios"), it would just be thought of as a second coming of the Tevinter Imperium.

[Foolsfolly]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Harid wrote...
While one could say the some for mages, we don't know these people, nor were they brought up, so mages appear not to have leadership.

The Mages need an Xavier, also a Magneto to make the Xavier seem more reasonable and provide incentive to work with him.

Actually, if mages get a Magneto that can build a nation like Genosha, that could work.

Ideally, they don't need either, but someone in between (though I like Xavier and Magneto a lot). but really mages so far demosntrated that they don't deserve either.

They really haven't.

"We're born with incredible powers and people are afriad of us. LET'S MAKE DEALS WITH DEMONS BECAUSE I CAN'T STAND BEING IN A SCHOOL!"

.....

....my Templar bias is showing.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Harid wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Actually, if mages get a Magneto that can build a nation like Genosha, that could work.

I kinda think if the mages do create a Genosha (one of my "mages winning scenarios"), it would just be thought of as a second coming of the Tevinter Imperium.

IIRC, Magneto actually had humans in his cabinet when ruling Genosha. Because he isn't a completely stubborn moron.

It will depend a lot on geography I think. If this new nation is clsoe to Tevinter, then it could work out. If it's in the middle of Thedas, it will be ****ed.

I am thinking Rivain, with its own culture and tradition, is suitable for such a thing.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 juin 2011 - 12:31 .

[Zanallen]

Harid wrote...

I kinda think if the mages do create a Genosha (one of my "mages winning scenarios"), it would just be thought of as a second coming of the Tevinter Imperium.

Wasn't Genosha the place where humans genetically altered mutants to turn them into mindless slaves and used this workforce to create a utopia?

[Deztyn]

Village Idiot wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

What
leaders where there in the civil rights movement then? (before Rosa)
I'm horribly bad at american history, and freely admit it. so feel free
to enlighten me.

Well, there was Bayard Rustin, who predated Dr. King and was the chief organizer for the March on Washington.

The NAACP had been around for about 50 years before Parks. Brown vs the Board of Education was before Parks. There had also been a few court cases to end segregation at the college level before that, but the details escape me.

Modifié par Deztyn, 17 juin 2011 - 12:28 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zanallen wrote...

Harid wrote...

I kinda think if the mages do create a Genosha (one of my "mages winning scenarios"), it would just be thought of as a second coming of the Tevinter Imperium.

Wasn't Genosha the place where humans genetically altered mutants to turn them into mindless slaves and used this workforce to create a utopia?

Before Magneto took it over, yea.
Though it's difficult to refer to comic book lore, seeing how they are a multitude of realities and canons out there.

[DPSSOC]

Harid wrote...
I kinda think if the mages do create a Genosha (one of my "mages winning scenarios"), it would just be thought of as a second coming of the Tevinter Imperium.

Come to think of it the Imperium could be seen as the mage's Genosha (not a perfect parallel but close).

[Harid]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Harid wrote...

I kinda think if the mages do create a Genosha (one of my "mages winning scenarios"), it would just be thought of as a second coming of the Tevinter Imperium.

Wasn't Genosha the place where humans genetically altered mutants to turn them into mindless slaves and used this workforce to create a utopia?

Before Magneto took it over, yea.
Though it's difficult to refer to comic book lore, seeing how they are a multitude of realities and canons out there.

Maybe Asteroid M is a better example?

I dunno.  I am not really a comic book nerd so, perhaps I should not be using them in my examples.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Harid wrote...
Maybe Asteroid M is a better example?

I dunno.  I am not really a comic book nerd so, perhaps I should not be using them in my examples.

I admit it, I am an animated series nerd