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[TEWR]

Deztyn wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Her persuasive powers are unmatched!


But it's a good thing if you're careful and you play them instead of letting them play you. Hawke can do it with the Hunger Demon in the Deep Roads and Torpor in the Fade. The Warden did it with Sophia Dryden and Kitty.

Sad.

I see she's got you good.

Merrillmancer for life (friendship path)!


Let me ask you this though. Did your Warden deal with Sophia Dryden? Did he/she deal with Kitty?


I'm assuming you have the required DLC for these dealings, where Sophia Dryden tells you she's the only one who can mend the Veil in Soldier's Peak (lies) and where you lie to Kitty about letting her possess a mage child.


It's fun to screw with demons.


"Oh sure I'll help you!"

"Good. Now here's what you need to do."

"Ok I did it. Oh wait, I forgot to do one thing."

"What?"

"Kill you."

"Betrayal!

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 17 juin 2011 - 04:27 .

[tmp7704]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

And by the rules of the Chantry, all city elves are to live in alienages. There's no "unless they become Templars" subset of the rule that I've seen or heard talked about.

We know from DAO that some city elves leave the alienages. It's even mentioned in the very quote you bring up:

"Here, we're among family. We look out for each other. Here, we do what we can to remember the old ways. The flat–ears who've gone out there, they're stuck. They'll never be human, and they've gone and thrown away being elven, too. So where does that leave them? Nowhere."

Some of these who leave get rough treatment from the human population, but nowhere it's said that the Chantry forces these elves to go back to the Alienages. Like the quote also says, most elves stick together because that's one way to be together with members of their own species, and it's safer.

There were tons of alternatives to the Alienages: make elves all become normal citizens or leave, rather than ghettoizing them. But the Chantry chose to force them to convert, to make them live as less than humans, less than full citizens, forced them to submit.

The elves just lost a war they've waged against humans, making them "normal citizens" in such situation was pretty much out of question (being in the alienages provided them some degree of protection) And leave... leave to where? The world as it's known is claimed by various human countries. No one is going to willingly give up some of their wealth and territory just so the elves have a place to live. Especially not right after the last such attempt (the Dales) blew up in everyone's face.

Modifié par tmp7704, 17 juin 2011 - 04:34 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

tmp7704 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

And by the rules of the Chantry, all city elves are to live in alienages. There's no "unless they become Templars" subset of the rule that I've seen or heard talked about.

We know from DAO that some city elves leave the alienages. It's even mentioned in the very quote you bring up:

"Here, we're among family. We look out for each other. Here, we do what we can to remember the old ways. The flat–ears who've gone out there, they're stuck. They'll never be human, and they've gone and thrown away being elven, too. So where does that leave them? Nowhere."

Some of these who leave get rough treatment from the human population, but nowhere it's said that the Chantry forces these elves to go back to the Alienages. Like the quote also says, most elves stick together because that's one way to be together with members of their own species, and it's safer.

There were tons of alternatives to the Alienages: make elves all become normal citizens or leave, rather than ghettoizing them. But the Chantry chose to force them to convert, to make them live as less than humans, less than full citizens, forced them to submit.

The elves just lost a war they've waged against humans, making them "normal citizens" in such situation was pretty much out of question (being in the alienages provided them some degree of protection) And leave... leave to where? The world as it's known is claimed by various human countries. No one is going to willingly give up some of their wealth and territory just so the elves have a place to live. Especially not right after the last such attempt (the Dales) blew up in everyone's face.

Ah, so you've chosen to believe that the elves attacked and did so so savagely and relentlessly that the only rational reaction was to delete all record of Shartan from the chant of light and destroy their nation? And that none of this had anything to do with them refusing the Chantry's missionaries for decades? Well, if you believe that unironically, I have a chantry in a seaside metropolis that I'd like to sell you.

If this wasn't a political manipulation, I see absolutely no reason for making the Canticle of Shartan heretical. That is the obvious sign that this is not just a simple war of nations. It is a war against any ideas that differ from theirs.

To paraphrase horribly a famous saying: 

First they came for the elves, and I didn't speak out, because I was not an elf
Then they came for the mages, and I didn't speak out because I was not a mage
Then they came for the Quinari, and I didn't speak out because I did not follow the Qun
Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak out for me

Being forced to live in alienages seems to have been an explicit part of the surrender deal. The chantry may not enforce it heavily, because they have better things to do, and they allow the people of the city to do it for them. But that does not mean it is not in the hearts and minds of every Templar, of every Orlesian.

Your Chantry has crushed a people under its heel, and yet you say they were merciful. I look forward to the day that all who have recieved the Chantry's mercy rise up, and show it mercy of a similar variety.

[Zanallen]

So we are comparing the Chantry to the National Socialist German Workers' Party now?

[KnightofPhoenix]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Your Chantry has crushed a people under its heel, and yet you say they were merciful. I look forward to the day that all who have recieved the Chantry's mercy rise up, and show it mercy of a similar variety.

They certainly could have been more cruel. I doubt elves would have been that much less cruel were they not weak.

But really for me, elves are for all intents and purposes a dying people ever since their lazy previously unchallenged civilization was sunk before the might of Tevinter.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Zanallen wrote...

So we are comparing the Chantry to the National Socialist German Workers' Party now?

Hahaha, Ok. Someone owes me a coke. I said that I couldn't post that poem anywhere other than a certain thread, because people would conflate the general message with the original topic of the poem. They argued that the message was important enough that people wouldn't invoke the Godwin when I repeated it.

Cynicism 1 Optimism 0

That quote was used frequently by civil rights activists in the 1950s, and it was in researching the history of those movements that I first came across the quote. The meaning you are meant to take from it is not "any country that does X is the same as the [Godwin]," rather the meaning is that the oppression of one segment of people can lead to the oppression of everyone. If you do not speak out when the laws are oppressing people who are not you, then you cannot expect anyone to speak out when you are wronged.

So no, I am not comparing them to what you suggest. That is not the point of the quote, and never has been. There is a reason no political party is mentioned in that quote, no government.

Because it is about recognizing a pattern of oppression, and giving those who are not oppressed a reason to help those who are being oppressed.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 17 juin 2011 - 05:13 .

[DPSSOC]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Your Chantry has crushed a people under its heel, and yet you say they were merciful. I look forward to the day that all who have recieved the Chantry's mercy rise up, and show it mercy of a similar variety.

They certainly could have been more cruel. I doubt elves would have been that much less cruel were they not weak.

But really for me, elves are for all intents and purposes a dying people ever since their lazy previously unchallenged civilization was sunk before the might of Tevinter.

Hm you give them more credit than I do.  I've always consider it to be ever since they realized merely associating with humans could kill them.

[KnightofPhoenix]

DPSSOC wrote...
Hm you give them more credit than I do.  I've always consider it to be ever since they realized merely associating with humans could kill them.

Indeed, that too.
Add to that human / elven reproduction always producing a human.

[Zanallen]

From what I have seen in the games, I don't see the Chantry actively persecuting the elves. The elves live in the alienages because if they moved somewhere else, which they can do according to the codex, they are sometimes harassed or burnt out. If anything, the elves suffer from blatant racism that is neither promoted nor abashed by the Chantry. This most likely dates back from the time of the Tevinter Imperium, before Andraste or the Chantry.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Oh, I actually sort of agree. The only thing that can save the elves is their gods coming back, or unlocking the secrets of their ancestors, or magic returning for everyone.

Which is why I can kinda see what Merril is trying to do. Those mirrors may be our only hope. Still, for now there are many elves, and they have good reason to be angry.

I just see very little that any non-Orlesian country gains out of supporting the Chantry. There are so many anti-chantry groups just waiting to be galvanized against them, and Orlais has basically been doing as it pleased for centuries, because it had the Divine. There are so many delicious ways one can seize power against them, but I do not see how allying with them benefits anyone other than the Chantry.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Zanallen wrote...

From what I have seen in the games, I don't see the Chantry actively persecuting the elves. The elves live in the alienages because if they moved somewhere else, which they can do according to the codex, they are sometimes harassed or burnt out. If anything, the elves suffer from blatant racism that is neither promoted nor abashed by the Chantry. This most likely dates back from the time of the Tevinter Imperium, before Andraste or the Chantry.

I'd say making the Canticle of Shartan heretical, spreading lies about the Dalish committing human sacrifices, and creating the alienage system contributed SIGNIFICANTLY to elvish persecution.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 17 juin 2011 - 05:22 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
I just see very little that any non-Orlesian country gains out of supporting the Chantry. 

The same reason Maric and Loghain did not destroy the Chantry in Ferelden. It's popular.

While the decline of Orlais would axiomatically lead to the weakening of the Chantry, it's also possible that the replacement (most likely Nevarra), would adopt the Chantry for its own imperial purposes.

[Zanallen]

The Chantry is the major religion in Thedas. Of course it is going to supported by a number of countries outside of Orlais. Those countries gain the approval of their citizens because they work with the church that represents their faith.

Modifié par Zanallen, 17 juin 2011 - 05:26 .

[DPSSOC]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
There are so many delicious ways one can seize power against them, but I do not see how allying with them benefits anyone other than the Chantry.

I believe it has something to do with not wanting to fight the Chantry's private, drug addicted army from within while repelling an Orlesian (at least) invasion from without at the same time.  Unless I missed something the Fereldan Templars didn't get involved in the Orlesian invasion, though the Grand Cleric did support Meghren(sp?), so in matters of nations fighting nations the Templars are, thankfully, neutral.

The problem is that anyone who stands against the Chantry faces a civil war (Templars) as well as having to fight the Orlesians with no guarantees of anyone joining the fight on your side (unless carefully plotted beforehand).

Modifié par DPSSOC, 17 juin 2011 - 05:29 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

DPSSOC wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
There are so many delicious ways one can seize power against them, but I do not see how allying with them benefits anyone other than the Chantry.

I believe it has something to do with not wanting to fight the Chantry's private, drug addicted army from within while repelling an Orlesian (at least) invasion from without at the same time.  Unless I missed something the Fereldan Templars didn't get involved in the Orlesian invasion, though the Grand Cleric did support Meghren(sp?), so in matters of nations fighting nations the Templars are, thankfully, neutral.

The problem is that anyone who stands against the Chantry faces a civil war (Templars) as well as having to fight the Orlesians with no guarantees of anyone joining the fight on your side (unless carefully plotted beforehand).

This is true most of the time. But if the mages have already significantly weakened the Templars, and you offer amnesty (and, you know, Lyrium) to any moderate templars willing to join your "Chantry of Ferelden," well, now you're cooking with saltpeter.

The support of the common people: that and a silver will buy you a pie in Amaranthine. It did nothing to save Cailan. As for the common people following the Chantry, taking your country from Catholicism to Anglicanism need not be a harsh transition. It can work. You are king after all. You can do what you like, and in a few generations most people won't even notice.

I'm not saying there's no reason for a conservative and unambitious King to support the Chantry most of the time. But anyone who wants to take the reigns of history and ride must see the unique opportunity given by this ****** in the Templar's armor, so to speak.

[Foolsfolly]

CulturalGeekGirl, allow me to be the voice of myself and say, **** the Chantry.

I hate them so much. Always have. From the moment I met them talk about their Lady Jesus Andraste I knew "Oh, you're the fantasy Christianity. I'm sure you're bigot zealots."

They didn't disappoint.

[Foolsfolly]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
There are so many delicious ways one can seize power against them, but I do not see how allying with them benefits anyone other than the Chantry.

I believe it has something to do with not wanting to fight the Chantry's private, drug addicted army from within while repelling an Orlesian (at least) invasion from without at the same time.  Unless I missed something the Fereldan Templars didn't get involved in the Orlesian invasion, though the Grand Cleric did support Meghren(sp?), so in matters of nations fighting nations the Templars are, thankfully, neutral.

The problem is that anyone who stands against the Chantry faces a civil war (Templars) as well as having to fight the Orlesians with no guarantees of anyone joining the fight on your side (unless carefully plotted beforehand).

This is true most of the time. But if the mages have already significantly weakened the Templars, and you offer amnesty (and, you know, Lyrium) to any moderate templars willing to join your "Chantry of Ferelden," well, now you're cooking with saltpeter.

The support of the common people: that and a silver will buy you a pie in Amaranthine. It did nothing to save Cailan. As for the common people following the Chantry, taking your country from Catholicism to Anglicanism need not be a harsh transition. It can work. You are king after all. You can do what you like, and in a few generations most people won't even notice.

I'm not saying there's no reason for a conservative and unambitious King to support the Chantry most of the time. But anyone who wants to take the reigns of history and ride must see the unique opportunity given by this ****** in the Templar's armor, so to speak.

So we need a fantasy Henry VIII?

...I'm not complaining. Be an interesting quest giver and a fantastic companion. Can you imagine having Henry VIII on your team?

...wouldn't suggest romancing him, however....

[Deztyn]

The Ethereal Writer Redux,

I roleplay. I try to do everything I can in playthroughs. As a player, I still think dealing with demons is incredibly stupid and carries more risk than reward.


CulturalGeekGirl,

What motives do any of the other countries have to rise up against the Chantry? You mentioned groups waiting to bring them down, but aside from the Qunari and Tevinter I'm drawing a blank on any groups with sufficient power that want to do anything of the sort. No offense, but it seems like you're projecting your own beliefs onto the gameworld.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

My stance on this war is that a sufficiently clever person could benefit from either side, whether it be as Henry the VIII or Vetinari or Princess Leia.

Right now I see siding with the Chantry as the safe course, but siding with the Mages offers the possibility of far more significant gains. I'm sure that by DA3, the risk/reward balance of both sides will probably have evened out.

[Foolsfolly]

Deztyn wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux,

I roleplay. I try to do everything I can in playthroughs. As a player, I still think dealing with demons is incredibly stupid and carries more risk than reward.


CulturalGeekGirl,

What motives do any of the other countries have to rise up against the Chantry? You mentioned groups waiting to bring them down, but aside from the Qunari and Tevinter I'm drawing a blank on any groups with sufficient power that want to do anything of the sort. No offense, but it seems like you're projecting your own beliefs onto the gameworld.

You know that means so many different things for so many different players. And anyone who's been on this site for two days knows there's a debate in saying what's a roleplaying game and what isn't.

...but I still don't know what that term means to me.

Do I imagine myself as the character? Sometimes. Do I start a completely different and unique character and play with that voice...sometimes. Not often, if I want to write a story with a character in my mind...well then using a story someone else wrote and dialogue someone else wrote for me doesn't seem to be the same. I can come up with backstory and how this character will react...but I have no freedom to develop those things and frankly, I'd rather just write a story than do that. But I've done it before.

And then there's the metagaming aspect of it all. I'm a rather bad metagamer. If I know there's more experience in jumping out of the Mako and killing everything on foot (after weakening the tougher enemies, of course) well that's what I do. Would the character do that? Of bleeding course not! Nor would they just happen to know where the best items are (or in ME2 my personal perferred order of quests). Nor would they happen to know where the point of no return was, or that if they delayed hitting that point that nothing would change despite the bad guys still being out there.

And when it completely comes down to it....the game I roleplayed the most on was Age of Empires 1 and 2 on the PC way back in the 90s. I'd get home from school, load up the game and pretend I was a king building an army and fighting other kings throughout the ages. Sometimes I was a time traveler, othertimes an immortal.

And AoE really doesn't lend anything to roleplaying. I blame my young age at the time and that I was more imaginative than I am now...apparently...kinda sad about that.

....Erm, about the topic...

I feel the game's ending works better logically as a Templar supporter rather than a Mage supporter. From things I've gathered in postings on these forums and in interviews...I think that wasn't supposed to be the case but perhaps they just didn't have time to flesh out the Mage Act 3 like they'd have liked to. I mean it's 3 missions long, is it inconceivible that they meant to have 3 Templar missions and 3 completely different Mage missions?

Maybe I'm overplaying the 'this game reeks of rushed' card here.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Deztyn wrote...
CulturalGeekGirl,

What motives do any of the other countries have to rise up against the Chantry? You mentioned groups waiting to bring them down, but aside from the Qunari and Tevinter I'm drawing a blank on any groups with sufficient power that want to do anything of the sort. No offense, but it seems like you're projecting your own beliefs onto the gameworld.

Well it's mostly that the King of Ferelden was like "Hey, I'm going to do thing X Ok?" And the Chantry was like "Screw your sovereign nation, we're in charge here." Same thing for Kirkwall "Hey, we think that lady might be kind of crazy, maybe we could get a new Knight Commander?" "Screw your soverignity, the KC is in charge now that your Viscount is dead, and she'll block your champion from becoming the new Vicount, while we're at it." They also invaded Rivain and killed a whole bunch of innocent people there. So basically, a lot of governments at the very least have reason to not want the Chantry's will to supercede theirs anymore.

Pretty much for the past thousand years they've just been shouting "What? What are YOU gonna do about it? HA!" at random countries, and Orlais has been invading the heck out of all of its neighbors, using the fact that they are the Seat of the Divine as an excuse.

My preferred way to fix everything in Ferelden is to get someone who is sane and rational made Divine. I'd rather reform Andrasteism than crush it. I'd far prefer an Andrasteism that is closer to its original roots, especially if it turns out that Andraste was, you know, a mage, as we're lead to suspect when we find the Ashes. More than anything, I'd like to see the whole church change because of this, stop preaching that mages are Maker-cursed, restore the parts of history they've expurgated, stop oppressing the elves and spreading propaganda about the Dalish.

I'd also like a pony.

If we want to stop mages from being raped and tortured without any way to prevent it, we have to either reform Andrasteism or have a strong, free country where the Chantry cannot override the will of the King. I'd be happy with either of those, but I'd say the latter is significantly easier to accomplish. Not that I wouldn't choose the former first, if I had the opportunity. I would, in a heartbeat. There's nothing I'd rather see than an Andrasteism that preaches the Maker's love rather than his hate.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 17 juin 2011 - 06:09 .

[GodWood]

Siding with the mages is too mainstream.

[IanPolaris]

Everyone,

Actually we have an ingame King Henry VIII in Thedas and he is about to do what other posters have suggested.  His name is King Alistair of Fereldan.  We already know even before the Kirkwall incident that the crown of Fereldan and the Chantry (spec the Templars) are in a bit of a cold war over the treatment of mages.  Either the king has granted the Fereldan Circle Autonomy from the Chantry (and is making it stick for mages outside the actual physical circle) and/or is openly granting Asylum to fleeing Apostates from other lands.  Lelianna in Faith alludes to this as well ("especially after what happened in Fereldan").  The only reason the King hasn't taken over all Chantry property prior to the Kirkwall incidence is because Fereldan is still weak following the blight and Orlais is making threatening noises.

With the Kirkwall incident and with all the Circle of Magi AND the Templar Order both revolting from the Divine, King Alistair has a unique opportunity given what we know above to formalize the already informal split between the Fereldan Chanty and White Divine and go "Church of England" on the Chantry over the issue of magic (rather than a royal divorce).  The people will go along with it because the upper echelons of the Chantry are stained by their support of a brutal Orelesian occupation, and the daily life in the Village wouldn't change hardly at all (the same Rev Mothers would continue to hold services in the Chantry except they would regard King Alistair rather than Divine Justina as the Titular Head of the Church).

If Fereldan gets away with this and can incorporate a significant Apostate force into it's royal army and under royal regulation, expect Nevarra and other major nations to take note!

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

If Ferelden were to harbor apostates during the mage war, you can probably expect the Templars to be knocking down the door.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

In game (in games where Alistair is King) he pretty much tells you outright that he's been doing exactly that for the last several years, and nothing's gotten too out of hand. The problem with the war is that there are only so many doors the Templars can knock down. There aren't infinity Templars out there. And right now they're fighting a war on more than a half-dozen fronts.

I knew there was a reason I gave him up and made him King, instead of taking him with me to rebuild the Wardens. Oh Alistair, I'm so proud.