1008 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Uhm.. The Templars are equiped to fight on several fronts, so that isn't an issue. Templars in one Circle don't rely on Templars from another circle to annul it, so they are fully equipped in each cell to combat the rebellious circle. After the first few fights, both sides will have consolidated somewhere, and since Ferelden appears to be apostate friendly, perhaps the mages will have thought going there was a splendid idea. And the Templars will follow. That is not good for Ferelden.

[sphinxess]

IanPolaris wrote...

Everyone,

Actually we have an ingame King Henry VIII in Thedas and he is about to do what other posters have suggested.  His name is King Alistair of Fereldan.  We already know even before the Kirkwall incident that the crown of Fereldan and the Chantry (spec the Templars) are in a bit of a cold war over the treatment of mages.  Either the king has granted the Fereldan Circle Autonomy from the Chantry (and is making it stick for mages outside the actual physical circle) and/or is openly granting Asylum to fleeing Apostates from other lands.  Lelianna in Faith alludes to this as well ("especially after what happened in Fereldan").  The only reason the King hasn't taken over all Chantry property prior to the Kirkwall incidence is because Fereldan is still weak following the blight and Orlais is making threatening noises.

With the Kirkwall incident and with all the Circle of Magi AND the Templar Order both revolting from the Divine, King Alistair has a unique opportunity given what we know above to formalize the already informal split between the Fereldan Chanty and White Divine and go "Church of England" on the Chantry over the issue of magic (rather than a royal divorce).  The people will go along with it because the upper echelons of the Chantry are stained by their support of a brutal Orelesian occupation, and the daily life in the Village wouldn't change hardly at all (the same Rev Mothers would continue to hold services in the Chantry except they would regard King Alistair rather than Divine Justina as the Titular Head of the Church).

If Fereldan gets away with this and can incorporate a significant Apostate force into it's royal army and under royal regulation, expect Nevarra and other major nations to take note!

-Polaris

It seems listening to Cassandra the chantry might be planning to do some sort of Reformation <i.e. Council of Trent> action to straighten out their mess. Might be too much in the way of politics for a DA3 game.

Either way there should be some roving bands of Templars looting villages for food and breaking into chantrys looking for Lyrium.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Uhm.. The Templars are equiped to
fight on several fronts, so that isn't an issue. Templars in one Circle
don't rely on Templars from another circle to annul it, so they are
fully equipped in each cell to combat the rebellious circle. After the
first few fights, both sides will have consolidated somewhere, and since
Ferelden appears to be apostate friendly, perhaps the mages will have
thought going there was a splendid idea. And the Templars will follow.
That is not good for Ferelden.

We'll see. Several fronts, sure. All fronts with all circles rebelling? They've never faced anything like that before, not on the scale we're talking about. And there's no indication that the sides will consolidate anywhere. There's plenty of places for mages to go: Rivain, Ferelden, the Chasind Wilds, or Tevinter.  Any Elven mages can run off and find the Dalish, who are freakin' everywhere, and experts at hiding and guerilla fighting in the forests. The templars have been completely unable to wipe out the Dalish and their keepers for centuries... now suddenly, weakened and diminished, and with the Dalish possibly gaining hundreds or even thousands of mages, they're going to figure out how? Ha.

(The fact that the Dalish have home field advantage and a ton of non-magical offensive fighters is one of the reasons that they survive. Plate is a terrible idea in the forest. And it's not unheard of for Mage elves to go run off to find the Dalish, who will accept any elf who wishes to join 'em.)

The big question is whether many/any Templars will consider themselves loyal to their home country over loyalty to the Divine in Orlais. We're not even talking about the Chantry itself, only whether their loyalty to whoever gives the attack order supersedes the loyalty to King and Country.

Yes, if most of the countries of Thedas give all of their support to Orlais and the Chantry, and none of them take this opportunity to strike at a centuries-old enemy when it is weakened, the Chantry has the advantage. As I never tire of saying, I highly suspect that the Player will determine how wise or unwise this revolution was, in DA3. But I think that it creates an environment where there's basically a 50/50 chance the Chantry will win, and that a single hero or a single king will determine how the chips fall.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 17 juin 2011 - 11:12 .

[Fomf75]

To return to the original post:

I´m surprised at how many people seem to think the authors "wanted" us to aid the templars and failed at showing that aiding the mages might be a viable option. I got the entirely opposite impression. Yeah, it might be true that you never actually see a templar commit a crime or tormenting the mages. But, as was mentioned by some of the above posters in passing, what´s much worse in my opinion is that you never see a reason for the whole templar order, either. I think the problem is partly because the game system is unable to support the story it is supposed to tell. When the game allows you to play a mage OR a rogue and a warrior while not really changing the entire story, the consequence is that there is nothing "mage hawk" can do that rogue or warrior hawk couldn´t do as well. 

When reading the codex and talking to npc, you´re told over and over how mages are so horribly dangerous. If you decide to join the templars and listen to meredith, she tells you the story of how her sister turned into an abomination and murdered an entire village before she could be stopped. To my mind, a better analogy than the "nuclear bomb" idea someone mentioned would be to compare mages to people having a horrible, contagious disease that is mostly harmless to themselves but potentially deadly to all people coming in contact with them. If THAT was true, the chantry MIGHT be a viablesolution.
BUT the game simply does not show you that it really is true.
Yeah, you see lots of insane blood mages running around murdering people. But you don´t need to be a mage to be an insane mass-murderer. And yeah, mages can summon demons and turn into abominations. So what, my party of four has slain hundreds of those without problems during the few years in kirkwall. The one non-mage-elf who opens the qunari-gas-containers is far more dangerous to the population as a whole than any mage you meet during the story. At no point does the game prove that mages really are more dangerous than rogues or warriors; it can´t prove that, as it would unbalance the game system either making mages overpowered or rogues/warriors underpowered.

The one point where the story really hints at why mages are considered horribly dangerous - the act 1 story about blood mages forcing demons into bodies of non-mages - is never really continued beyond act 1.

So no, to my mind, if anything, the authors of the game WANTED to show that both sides are viable options but never really succeeded at showing WHY the templars might be needed.

Modifié par Fomf75, 17 juin 2011 - 11:39 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

They are not loyal to the Divine anymore, they rebelled. They are loyal to their duty of defending humanity against magic. Most Templars have never had to annul a Circle either, yet they do that efficiently. This is simply an annulment on a large scale so to speak. And why on sweet mother earth would any of those countries you name accept the renegade mages? THat would bring hell down upon themselves, with precious little to gain. The Chasind would for that matter never accept any more mages than their own Shamans. And the Tevinter are unlikely to accept a lot of mages either, since they would disrupt the power balance too much. Rivain likewise, wouldn't accept renegade mages. They like their SEERS, any mage is not a seer to the Rivaini, and they probably feel much the same as the rest of Thedas about apostates. Which leaves Ferelden and the Dalish. The Dalish would never accept a human mage, and I doubt they accept any and all Elven mage with open arms either. Add to that the difficulty tracking them down presents, and they are mostly a pipe dream to any Elven mage. Ferelden have shown that they are willing to harbor a few apostates, but I doubt that they would harbor all the renegade mages, since that would be to invite a political ****storm to tear Ferelden apart.

And the Templars have been unable to exterminate the Dalish because the Dalish have kept on the move constantly. The Templars could probably destroy the Dalish without much trouble if they were willing to expend the resources required to track them down.

[Wulfram]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But really for me, elves are for all intents and purposes a dying people ever since their lazy previously unchallenged civilization was sunk before the might of Tevinter.

The Dales were clearly a strong nation.  They were giving Orlais a right kicking before the Exalted March was called.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They are not loyal to the Divine anymore, they rebelled. They are loyal to their duty of defending humanity against magic. Most Templars have never had to annul a Circle either, yet they do that efficiently. This is simply an annulment on a large scale so to speak. And why on sweet mother earth would any of those countries you name accept the renegade mages? THat would bring hell down upon themselves, with precious little to gain. The Chasind would for that matter never accept any more mages than their own Shamans. And the Tevinter are unlikely to accept a lot of mages either, since they would disrupt the power balance too much. Rivain likewise, wouldn't accept renegade mages. They like their SEERS, any mage is not a seer to the Rivaini, and they probably feel much the same as the rest of Thedas about apostates. Which leaves Ferelden and the Dalish. The Dalish would never accept a human mage, and I doubt they accept any and all Elven mage with open arms either. Add to that the difficulty tracking them down presents, and they are mostly a pipe dream to any Elven mage. Ferelden have shown that they are willing to harbor a few apostates, but I doubt that they would harbor all the renegade mages, since that would be to invite a political ****storm to tear Ferelden apart.

And the Templars have been unable to exterminate the Dalish because the Dalish have kept on the move constantly. The Templars could probably destroy the Dalish without much trouble if they were willing to expend the resources required to track them down.

The Dalish accept any elf who seeks them out. End of line. This is stated explicitly over and over again throughout the games. It's one of the central premises of their society. If you haven't noticed this you must really not be paying attention. And we've seen several examples of random city elves and mages on the run from the law or the circle seeking them out, so it's nowhere near as difficult as you're making it out to be. I'm not saying it'd be your proverbial walk in the park, but it can be done, and has been done.

And we don't have any idea how many Templars rebelled, or for what reason, or what sides they chose. All we know is that the Chantry has lost control of (most of?) them. We don't know if they have Lyrium supplies without the Chantry, we don't know jack about that situation in general. If they've truly cut themselves off from the Chantry and the Divine, they have even less power than usual, because while they're the sword arm, the Chantry holds the purse strings, and an army travels on their stomach. Or, in the case of the Templars, on their stomach and through their veins oh my god I don't care inject it into my eyeballs!

The Rivaini are said to have static Dalish camps in their country. Those Dalish camps contain non-seer mages. So yeah, I think they're probably OK with the occasional non-seer mage. I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be, as they aren't Andrastean, though they do have a circle. But hey, we have no solid evidence either way for Rivain, so I'll chalk that up to a maybe. As for Tevinter, we know Wynne and Shale went there (I think that's still canon?), so the idea of some apostates making it in isn't completely ridiculous (though it's probably a bad idea for most of them).

Again, there are many variables we just don't know anything about. But a country can't just kill all the mages, Tevinter and the Quinari will take out your pitiful little civilization like a shot if you give up your most powerful weapon, which is magecraft.

(I also think it'd be hilarious if a surviving Anders can teach other people his little gunpowder + magic trick. Because Maker on a matza, if that isn't a military advantage nobody can top!) 

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 17 juin 2011 - 12:21 .

[Wulfram]

I doubt the Dalish will accept mages who are not willing to abandon their faith in Andraste and the Maker.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Wulfram wrote...

I doubt the Dalish will accept mages who are not willing to abandon their faith in Andraste and the Maker.

Point. I don't get the impression that a lot of elves are especially devout, but some must be. Still, my point was that if any elven mage wants somewhere to run to, they have one extra option, provided they're willing to learn the old ways.

[dragonflight288]

And even if the templars took all the lyrium out of the chantry stores, they would use it up relatively quickly because there won't be any way of getting more of it. All the templars are consuming the lyrium, and the templar order doesn't trade with the dwarves for lyrium. They will run out eventually, and you'll have thousands of addicts desperate for a fix. And if the chantry no longer has the templars, they may lose their need to buy lyrium.

It's a long term war plan, which means that if the templars want any hope of defeating all the mages, thus opening the world to Qunari or Tevinter invasions, it will have to be fast strikes against large groups. Not likely if Alistair and other countries are harboring mages.

[LobselVith8]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I think people place Leliana into the anti-mage camp because she is playing messenger for the Divine and is investigating Kirkwall. She turns up the Resolutionists. Most investigators likely would call it a day at that.

She delivers a message from the Divine, and that message may be interpreted as anti-mage. Bad news kills the messenger first, after all.

Leliana doesn't simply provide a message for Hawke to deliver to Grand Cleric Elthina, she's supposed to investigate the trouble in Kirkwall, and blames everything on the Resolutionists when the civilians, the nobles, the mages, and even some templars have turned against the Knight-Commander who is installing herself as the de facto Viscount. Blaming a group that plays no role for seven years and saying that an Exalted March is the answer because of the risk of mage autonomy places her far more toward the anti-mage spectrum than she was during the Fifth Blight.

[dragonflight288]

What would you do if the Divine asked you to investigate, and you go into a city already knowing there's a fraternity who likes to manipulate things from the shadows?

I honestly think she should have investigated a lot more, including the circle and the templar order, but once she had seen the proof of the resolutionists actions in the city, that may be enough to call it a job well done. Most investigators would call it that. Nothing against her, but that's just reality.

[Wulfram]

Leliana never actually explicitly endorses an Exalted March, though of course she also does not deny it. She says the Divine takes the situation very seriously, that "if Kirkwall falls to magic, none of us are safe" and says that the Grand Cleric will not be safe here.

edit:  Remember that there's no reason for Leliana to trust Hawke, particularly.  Whatever plan she and the Divine have, she's not going to share it.

edit2:  Note also that the Divine and Leliana don't seem to be supporting the Templar war against the mages in the Epilogue

Modifié par Wulfram, 17 juin 2011 - 12:54 .

[ddv.rsa]

LobselVith8 wrote...
 Blaming a group that plays no role for seven years and saying that an Exalted March is the answer because of the risk of mage autonomy places her far more toward the anti-mage spectrum than she was during the Fifth Blight.

Maybe she was always like that. The mage / templar debate never really came up in Origins. Certainly, she could romance a mage, but that doesn't make her any more pro-mage. Given how strong her loyalty to the Chantry was even then, I'd say anti-mage tendencies are to be expected. You can't be a devout Andrastian and think like a Libertarian.

[tmp7704]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Ah, so you've chosen to believe that the elves attacked and did so so savagely and relentlessly that the only rational reaction was to delete all record of Shartan from the chant of light and destroy their nation?

No, this is what the nations of Thedas seem to believe, or at least did at the time when the solution had to be decided -- that the elves had attacked their human neighbour nation, and the resulting conflict was on a scale it took coordinated effort of multiple countries to bring it to end. And since it's their lands and willingness to live next to who they perceive extremely dangerous troublemakers that's required to resolve this issue in another way, not mine, that's what matters.

Your Chantry has crushed a people under its heel, and yet you say they were merciful. I look forward to the day that all who have recieved the Chantry's mercy rise up, and show it mercy of a similar variety.

"Your" chantry? Please, get a grip.

Modifié par tmp7704, 17 juin 2011 - 01:02 .

[Wulfram]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Maybe she was always like that. The mage / templar debate never really came up in Origins. Certainly, she could romance a mage, but that doesn't make her any more pro-mage. Given how strong her loyalty to the Chantry was even then, I'd say anti-mage tendencies are to be expected. You can't be a devout Andrastian and think like a Libertarian.

• Leliana: It must be a wonderful thing, to be able to weave spells.
• Wynne: Wonderful? To you, perhaps. Most do not feel the same way
• Leliana: Oh, what do they know? They are just jealous.
  The Maker gives you magic; you must use it. You do it so effortlessly.
  It's like breathing for you. I wish I had such talent.

Leliana's loyalty to the Chantry didn't stop her pretty much making up her own mind on what the Maker wants.

And she disapproves of killing Jowan, a blood mage

[LobselVith8]

ddv.rsa wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Blaming a group that plays no role for seven years and saying that an Exalted March is the answer because of the risk of mage autonomy places her far more toward the anti-mage spectrum than she was during the Fifth Blight.

Maybe she was always like that. The mage / templar debate never really came up in Origins. Certainly, she could romance a mage, but that doesn't make her any more pro-mage. Given how strong her loyalty to the Chantry was even then, I'd say anti-mage tendencies are to be expected. You can't be a devout Andrastian and think like a Libertarian.

Maybe you're right, maybe Leliana was always like that. Perhaps she was always a Seeker. It's just that she's supposed to be investigating the unrest in Kirkwall, but she's putting all the blame on a group simply because they attacked her (and that's precisely what she wanted them to do when she let the information slip), and then Leliana ignores the Knight-Commander who is actually behind the unrest with so many different groups wanting her removal, including some of her own templars.

The absense of any mention of Meredith makes it hard for me to take Leliana seriously. The beginning of Act III addresses that Meredith is causing the unrest, to the point that people are saying Meredith is going too far and actively asking the Champion of Kirkwall to become the new Viscount. Even some nobles conspire to see Meredith removed from power. It's not like it would've been too difficult for Leliana to realize the Knight-Commander - who has publicly placed templars in the Viscount's Keep and prevented the election of a new Viscount - is causing unrest among the people when everyone is speaking about it, but apparently it's really all the fault of some group that we hear about once in seven years, and then never again.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 17 juin 2011 - 01:09 .

[Wulfram]

Would you expect an agent of the divine to discuss internal problems of the Chantry with someone who is either an apostate or an associate of apostates? Particularly since Hawke doesn't bring up Meredith or the Templars at all?

[LobselVith8]

Wulfram wrote...

Would you expect an agent of the divine to discuss internal problems of the Chantry with someone who is either an apostate or an associate of apostates? Particularly since Hawke doesn't bring up Meredith or the Templars at all?

Internal problems? It's not like Meredith causing the unrest among the people of Kirkwall is a secret to the denizens of said city-state, and Leliana clearly has no issue revealing her real name or telling an open apostate that the Divine plans to order an Exalted March against Hawke's city.

[sphinxess]

Or maybe the decision had already been made by the divine to crush the mages and send a clear message that the chantry won't put up with mages voting about leaving the circle or any other nonsense like that. Why else would Leliana try to get the reverend mother - the highest authority in Kirkwall to leave - and not mind Meredith holding more power than any knight-commander in years.

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's just that she's supposed to be investigating the unrest in Kirkwall, but she's putting all the blame on a group simply because they attacked her (and that's precisely what she wanted them to do when she let the information slip), and then Leliana ignores the Knight-Commander who is actually behind the unrest with so many different groups wanting her removal, including some of her own templars.

I'd dare a guess if the mages in question chose to speak with her rather than try to kill her outright, she'd be quite more open to actually hearing them out. That was a test of sentiments, and the mages collectively failed it seeing how the murderers were either the only ones who bothered to show up, or the ones who were strong enough to eliminate the potential others.

[ddv.rsa]

Wulfram wrote..
Leliana's loyalty to the Chantry didn't stop her pretty much making up her own mind on what the Maker wants.

True.

[Wulfram]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Internal problems? It's not like Meredith causing the unrest among the people of Kirkwall is a secret to the denizens of said city-state, and Leliana clearly has no issue revealing her real name or telling an open apostate that the Divine plans to order an Exalted March against Hawke's city.

The inability of the Chantry to control Meredith and the Templars is an internal issue, and not one that they can afford to have widely known.

And she doesn't say that the Divine plans an Exalted March.

[ddv.rsa]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Maybe you're right, maybe Leliana was always like that. Perhaps she was always a Seeker. It's just that she's supposed to be investigating the unrest in Kirkwall, but she's putting all the blame on a group simply because they attacked her (and that's precisely what she wanted them to do when she let the information slip), and then Leliana ignores the Knight-Commander who is actually behind the unrest with so many different groups wanting her removal, including some of her own templars.

The absense of any mention of Meredith makes it hard for me to take Leliana seriously. The beginning of Act III addresses that Meredith is causing the unrest, to the point that people are saying Meredith is going too far and actively asking the Champion of Kirkwall to become the new Viscount. Even some nobles conspire to see Meredith removed from power. It's not like it would've been too difficult for Leliana to realize the Knight-Commander - who has publicly placed templars in the Viscount's Keep and prevented the election of a new Viscount - is causing unrest among the people when everyone is speaking about it, but apparently it's really all the fault of some group that we hear about once in seven years, and then never again.

Imagine you're a Chantry investigator sent to find out what's wrong in Kirkwall. What would stand out the most to you? High blood mage and apostate activity, or the local Templars becoming increasingly paranoid in response to that activity?

From the perspective of a Chantry invesitagor, who would be sympathetic to the Chantry,  I'd think Meredith clamping down would seem normal under the circumstances.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 17 juin 2011 - 01:35 .

[LobselVith8]

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's just that she's supposed to be investigating the unrest in Kirkwall, but she's putting all the blame on a group simply because they attacked her (and that's precisely what she wanted them to do when she let the information slip), and then Leliana ignores the Knight-Commander who is actually behind the unrest with so many different groups wanting her removal, including some of her own templars.

I'd dare a guess if the mages in question chose to speak with her rather than try to kill her outright, she'd be quite more open to actually hearing them out. That was a test of sentiments, and the mages collectively failed it seeing how the murderers were either the only ones who bothered to show up, or the ones who were strong enough to eliminate the potential others.

Aren't the Resolutionists known to be a violent group? Why would Leliana assume they would be willing to speak about the issue?

Wulfram wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Internal problems? It's not like Meredith causing the unrest among the people of Kirkwall is a secret to the denizens of said city-state, and Leliana clearly has no issue revealing her real name or telling an open apostate that the Divine plans to order an Exalted March against Hawke's city.

The inability of the Chantry to control Meredith and the Templars is an internal issue, and not one that they can afford to have widely known.

And she doesn't say that the Divine plans an Exalted March.

Knight-Commander Meredith is taking political power by refusing to permit the election of a new Viscount and even has templars stationed in the Viscount's Keep. Meredith isn't even being discreet with her power play.