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[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Aren't the Resolutionists known to be a violent group? Why would Leliana assume they would be willing to speak about the issue?

She doesn't assume anything -- the known violent group shows up and is only interested in murdering her, she takes it as proof that's all she can expect from the Kirkwall mages, and there's no mage groups who would rather talk about their situation with her. Because well, that's all she got.

Modifié par tmp7704, 17 juin 2011 - 01:51 .

[sphinxess]

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Aren't the Resolutionists known to be a violent group? Why would Leliana assume they would be willing to speak about the issue?

She doesn't assume anything -- the known violent group shows up and is only interested in murdering her, she takes it as proof that's all she can expect from the Kirkwall mages, and there's no mage groups who would rather talk about their situation with her. Because well, that's all she got.

The resolutionists outplayed her - they wanted something to happen that would inflame all the mages in the circles and they got it.

[LobselVith8]

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Aren't the Resolutionists known to be a violent group? Why would Leliana assume they would be willing to speak about the issue?

She doesn't assume anything -- the known violent group shows up and is only interested in murdering her, she takes it as proof that's all she can expect from the Kirkwall mages, and there's no mage groups who would rather talk about their situation with her. Because well, that's all she got.

One violent group shows up because Leliana let word slip about her presence in Kirkwall, and the mage underground that Anders was a part of has been crushed.

[Wulfram]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Knight-Commander Meredith is taking political power by refusing to permit the election of a new Viscount and even has templars stationed in the Viscount's Keep. Meredith isn't even being discreet with her power play.

True.  But the Chantry's position on this isn't necessarily something they would want to discuss widely.

And, as I said, it's not like Hawke brings up Meredith and Leliana dismisses it.  She talks about the resolutionists - who are an obvious subject since you've just finished fighting - and things Hawke chooses to bring up, and Hawke apparently doesn't find Meredith a relevant topic.

[EmperorSahlertz]

How do any of you know that the Resolutionists weren't to blame for all of it? Perhaps it is their actions which drowe Meredith to take increasingly suppresive methods in use. None of us has done any kind of investigation into the actual issue, and Lelianna actully has done just that. I'm guessing that she might actually know a lot more about waht is going on, than any of us.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

How do any of you know that the Resolutionists weren't to blame for all of it? Perhaps it is their actions which drowe Meredith to take increasingly suppresive methods in use. None of us has done any kind of investigation into the actual issue, and Lelianna actully has done just that. I'm guessing that she might actually know a lot more about waht is going on, than any of us.

The Resolutions are to blame for Meredith taking political power, preventing the election of a new Viscount, and turning most of Kirkwall against her?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Yes. Meredith felt she had to do that, to keep control of the mages in Kirkwall. So if the Resolutionist were what led Meredith to increasingly severe actions, they are also what led her to block elections of a new Viscount.

[Wulfram]

That justification always seems distinctly weak. Frankly, if she wasn't distracted trying to take over Kirkwall she'd probably do a better job hunting blood mages. At the least, all those Templars surely have better things to do than hang about in the Viscount's palace.

Plus, if she wasn't so concerned about politics she could have done her job properly and arrested the notorious Apostate known as "Hawke".

[KnightofPhoenix]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Resolutions are to blame for Meredith taking political power, preventing the election of a new Viscount, and turning most of Kirkwall against her?

Her idiocy is responsible, but I am leaning towards blaming the Chantry more.
They are supposed to supervise this, and their inaction is either a sign of laziness, or implicit consent.
In either case, the Chantry was very incompetent.

[ddv.rsa]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Resolutions are to blame for Meredith taking political power, preventing the election of a new Viscount, and turning most of Kirkwall against her?

This isn't always seen as a problem. Depending on Hawke, the nobles may actually support Meredith. Their attitude depends on who you side with at the start of Act III. If you side with Meredith they say things like "Meredith is right" and "We must deal with the mages first".

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If Ferelden were to harbor apostates during the mage war, you can probably expect the Templars to be knocking down the door.

During Act III, Feleredan is already harboring Apostates and as angry as Meredith is about it, she can't do squat about it nor can the Templars because Fereldan (even weakened after the blight) is a far different proposition than Kirkwall.  The Templars have too many fire to tend and have far too few forces of their own to conquer Fereldan outright and both Knight Commander Meredith and King Alistair knows it.  In addition, I think it is likely that King Alistair is in open negotiations with Knight Commander Gregoire over how to handle mages.  While I don't think Knight Commander Gregoire is very happy about the situation, he strikes me as the sort of person who will give half a loaf (an oath of fealty) to the King if it means he at least gets to have a strong say over how mages and magic is policed.

In short, I suspect that in the special case of Fereldan, when King Alistair goes "Church of England" on the Divine, the Fereldan Templars will go with him and swear fealty to the Crown and the Fereldan Templars will be run by KC Gregoire but under the direction of the Crown.

-Polaris

[ddv.rsa]

IanPolaris wrote...

In short, I suspect that in the special case of Fereldan, when King Alistair goes "Church of England" on the Divine, the Fereldan Templars will go with him and swear fealty to the Crown and the Fereldan Templars will be run by KC Gregoire but under the direction of the Crown.

-Polaris

That's one way it could turn out. I think it's equally likely that just like everywhere else the Templars in Ferelden rebel. They wouldn't have the power to conquer Ferelden or even fight a war, but you could have roving bands of Templars hunting mages and evading the King's army.

[KnightofPhoenix]

If this is indeed what's going to happen, I doubt it's going to be dependent on the choice of monarch. As in, both Alistair and Anora would do this, solo or married. I'd certainly trust Anora more to do a better job.

[xScarecrowX]

I normally don't talk on here as much as I should/want to, but I read the title of the post and couldn't stay away. Maybe it's just me, but I guess I'll never earn those trophies for siding with the templars. My gut hurts thinking about siding with those .....jerks.... And I'm completly cool with not getting them. Even though I play rogues and my Hawke doesn't deal with the circle as directly, I still feel a connection to the mages. Although, why did Bioware make every mage in the circle basicly go " Oh Maker, I can't fight them! Hey Mr. Demons!" I kinda Lol'd at how easily they resorted to blood magic.

[Zanallen]

I think it is just as likely that Orlais will swoop in and take over a weakened Ferelden.

[TEWR]

Swooping is bad.


........


well someone had to say it!



Anyway, I think with Anora's political savvy and Alistair's way to charm the people of Ferelden easily, they may be able to keep Ferelden independent and prevent an Orlesian invasion

[Zanallen]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Swooping is bad.


........


well someone had to say it!



Anyway, I think with Anora's political savvy and Alistair's way to charm the people of Ferelden easily, they may be able to keep Ferelden independent and prevent an Orlesian invasion

Heh.

And yes, that is true. However, Ferelden is currently weakened by the Blight and the infighting caused by Loghain. The dwarves and elves will probably not aid Ferelden in a battle against Orlais. Neither would the Wardens, most likely.

[TEWR]

Zanallen wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Swooping is bad.


........


well someone had to say it!



Anyway, I think with Anora's political savvy and Alistair's way to charm the people of Ferelden easily, they may be able to keep Ferelden independent and prevent an Orlesian invasion

Heh.

And yes, that is true. However, Ferelden is currently weakened by the Blight and the infighting caused by Loghain. The dwarves and elves will probably not aid Ferelden in a battle against Orlais. Neither would the Wardens, most likely.

I would imagine the elves might leap at the opportunity to strike back at Orlais for depriving them of the Dales. Orzammar would only remain neutral if the Chantry didn't try and sack them too. But I imagine with Bhelen on the throne he might lend support to Ferelden as Ferelden is the main source of Orzammar's money.

The Warden Commander of Amaranthine has an obligation to defend the arling. Maybe the other Wardens in the Arling would remain neutral unless provoked into acting, but the WC would be forced to act immediately.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
But I imagine with Bhelen on the throne he might lend support to Ferelden as Ferelden is the main source of Orzammar's money.

Actually as it stands, the Chantry is the main source of Orzammar's money.

The Warden Commander of Amaranthine has an obligation to defend the arling. Maybe the other Wardens in the Arling would remain neutral unless provoked into acting, but the WC would be forced to act immediately.

Obligations are useless if not enforced. Why would the First Warden think that challenging Orlais, the country that supports the order the most, is a good idea?

If anything, I see him striking a deal with Celene to keep the Wardens in Ferelden, or give them even more.

The situation in Ferelden is dire, and while it's not impossible for them to be able to defend their independence, it would be extremily difficult. Especially when Ferelden's structure is crap and its nobles can be easily manipulated.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 juin 2011 - 04:47 .

[Furtled]

Zanallen wrote...
And yes, that is true. However, Ferelden is currently weakened by the Blight and the infighting caused by Loghain. The dwarves and elves will probably not aid Ferelden in a battle against Orlais. Neither would the Wardens, most likely.

Wouldn't that be dependent on the Warden in question though? A dwarf Warden can request a military alliance between Ferelden and Orzammar (and possibly be related to the next King with one of the largest Houses in the city) and if I remember right there's something similar with the elves.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
But I imagine with Bhelen on the throne he might lend support to Ferelden as Ferelden is the main source of Orzammar's money.

Actually as it stands, the Chantry is the main source of Orzammar's money.

The Warden Commander of Amaranthine has an obligation to defend the arling. Maybe the other Wardens in the Arling would remain neutral unless provoked into acting, but the WC would be forced to act immediately.

Obligations are useless if not enforced. Why would the First Warden think that challenging Orlais, the country that supports the order the most, is a good idea?

If anything, I see him striking a deal with Celene to keep the Wardens in Ferelden, or give them even more.

The situation in Ferelden is dire, and while it's not impossible for them to be able to defend their independence, it would be extremily difficult. Especially when Ferelden's structure is crap and its nobles can be easily manipulated.

Not quite. Merchants flocked to Orzammar in droves with Bhelen on the throne. Head to the Blooming Rose and talk to the bartender there and he'll tell you.


Celene isn't the one pushing for invasion. The nobility under her are. If Orlais splits into two factions, Celene's supporters and the nobility's, I see her lending aid to Ferelden. She wants there to be peace between the two nations.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Not quite. Merchants flocked to Orzammar in droves with Bhelen on the throne. Head to the Blooming Rose and talk to the bartender there and he'll tell you.

Merchants can come from Orlais even. And Orzammar's main source of income is Lyrium. Other than that, it has precious metals, high quality armor and expensive goods that Ferelden is too poor to be a lucrative market for at the moment.

Celene isn't the one pushing for invasion. The nobility under her are. If Orlais splits into two factions, Celene's supporters and the nobility's, I see her lending aid to Ferelden. She wants there to be peace between the two nations.

That's what she claims. You believe her?
I don't. Orlesian nobility do not have the amount of power like Ferelden's. The vast majority of them only have pointless titles. The Chevaliers are under the Empress' command. That's how the system is designed.

[Wulfram]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Obligations are useless if not enforced. Why would the First Warden think that challenging Orlais, the country that supports the order the most, is a good idea?

Because he wants more people to give the Wardens land, and that's not going to happen if the Warden Arl of Amaranthine betrays Fereldan at the first time his loyalty is put to the test.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Celene isn't the one
pushing for invasion. The nobility under her are. If Orlais splits into
two factions, Celene's supporters and the nobility's, I see her lending
aid to Ferelden. She wants there to be peace between the two
nations.

If Orlais invades Fereldan, Celene would be foolish not to put herself at the head of it even if she thinks it foolish.

[LobselVith8]

Furtled wrote...

Zanallen wrote...
And yes, that is true. However, Ferelden is currently weakened by the Blight and the infighting caused by Loghain. The dwarves and elves will probably not aid Ferelden in a battle against Orlais. Neither would the Wardens, most likely.

Wouldn't that be dependent on the Warden in question though? A dwarf Warden can request a military alliance between Ferelden and Orzammar (and possibly be related to the next King with one of the largest Houses in the city) and if I remember right there's something similar with the elves.

That's true. Some Wardens would have a personal stake in seeing Ferelden remain independent, especially if The Warden is the Cousland Warden who is ruling the nation with either King Alistair or Queen Anora. I doubt the Dalish Warden would want Orlais commandering control of Ferelden, given the events of the fall of the Dales.  The Surana Warden (as well as the Amell Warden) can request for the Circle of Ferelden to be given its independence, and I don't imagine that the Orlesian Empire will be trying to make the strides in making that happen as much as King Alistair is (since he is still arguing for it seven years later, and protecting apostates from the templars). A mage who is the Arl of Amaranthine has an army (the Silver Order), his order (the Wardens), and potentially even the mages in the Circle of Ferelden (who might view him as their champion for asking the ruler of Ferelden to give them their independence). I don't think victory is that clear cut with The Warden standing between Orlais and Ferelden.

[Zanallen]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Not quite. Merchants flocked to Orzammar in droves with Bhelen on the throne. Head to the Blooming Rose and talk to the bartender there and he'll tell you.


Celene isn't the one pushing for invasion. The nobility under her are. If Orlais splits into two factions, Celene's supporters and the nobility's, I see her lending aid to Ferelden. She wants there to be peace between the two nations.

But if Alistair or Anora push breaking off from the Chantry or forming their own religion like some in this thread are suggesting? I think that would cement Orlais against Ferelden. Orzammar, if I recall, gets the vast sum of its money from selling lyrium to the Chantry. I doubt an influx of merchants would supplement the loss of that trade. The elves might help, but there is little love lost between the Dalish and the humans of Ferelden. They have a debt to the Warden, not to Ferelden.

Modifié par Zanallen, 17 juin 2011 - 04:59 .