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[Zanallen]

LobselVith8 wrote...

That's true. Some Wardens would have a personal stake in seeing Ferelden remain independent, especially if The Warden is the Cousland Warden who is ruling the nation with either King Alistair or Queen Anora. I doubt the Dalish Warden would want Orlais commandering control of Ferelden, given the events of the fall of the Dales.  The Surana Warden (as well as the Amell Warden) can request for the Circle of Ferelden to be given its independence, and I don't imagine that the Orlesian Empire will be trying to make the strides in making that happen as much as King Alistair is (since he is still arguing for it seven years later, and protecting apostates from the templars). A mage who is the Arl of Amaranthine has an army (the Silver Order), his order (the Wardens), and potentially even the mages in the Circle of Ferelden (who might view him as their champion for asking the ruler of Ferelden to give them their independence). I don't think victory is that clear cut with The Warden standing between Orlais and Ferelden.

One Warden /= the Wardens. The PC Warden might help out; however, the First Warden is unlikely to risk angering their biggest supporters and changing the entire dynamic of the Order by taking sides with a political conflict where they have little to gain and a whole lot to lose.

[tmp7704]

sphinxess wrote...

The resolutionists outplayed her - they wanted something to happen that would inflame all the mages in the circles and they got it.

Considering in the end it's Anders' doing that pushes the mages/circles in the action i'm not sure if they can get much credit for that. In any case, whether they outplayed her or not doesn't seem to make Leliana's stance appear any more or less anti-mage, and she doesn't appear anti-mage after the feces hit the fan, i.e. in the epilogue (unless trying to stop the conflict counts as such)

Modifié par tmp7704, 17 juin 2011 - 05:06 .

[LobselVith8]

Zanallen wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That's true. Some Wardens would have a personal stake in seeing Ferelden remain independent, especially if The Warden is the Cousland Warden who is ruling the nation with either King Alistair or Queen Anora. I doubt the Dalish Warden would want Orlais commandering control of Ferelden, given the events of the fall of the Dales.  The Surana Warden (as well as the Amell Warden) can request for the Circle of Ferelden to be given its independence, and I don't imagine that the Orlesian Empire will be trying to make the strides in making that happen as much as King Alistair is (since he is still arguing for it seven years later, and protecting apostates from the templars). A mage who is the Arl of Amaranthine has an army (the Silver Order), his order (the Wardens), and potentially even the mages in the Circle of Ferelden (who might view him as their champion for asking the ruler of Ferelden to give them their independence). I don't think victory is that clear cut with The Warden standing between Orlais and Ferelden.

One Warden /= the Wardens. The PC Warden might help out; however, the First Warden is unlikely to risk angering their biggest supporters and changing the entire dynamic of the Order by taking sides with a political conflict where they have little to gain and a whole lot to lose.

I'd imagine the Ferelden Wardens would be more inclined to follow the Hero of Ferelden if their homeland is being threatened.

[ddv.rsa]

Furtled wrote...

Wouldn't that be dependent on the Warden in question though? A dwarf Warden can request a military alliance between Ferelden and Orzammar (and possibly be related to the next King with one of the largest Houses in the city) and if I remember right there's something similar with the elves.

No, you can't request a military alliance. You can request aid in the Deep Roads. That doesn't mean Orzammar will suddenly start invovling itself in surface wars.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 17 juin 2011 - 05:08 .

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'd imagine the Ferelden Wardens would be more inclined to follow the Hero of Ferelden if their homeland is being threatened.

the Hero of Ferelden and Alistair plus the few people from the Awakening are the only "Ferelden Wardens" to speak of, though. The rest are imports from Orlais and such. If there's some additional local Wardens created after the Awakening ends we don't know, and the Hero of Ferelden appears to be missing at that point of timeline, anyway. Making him/her hard to follow.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Merchants can come from Orlais even. And Orzammar's main source of income is Lyrium. Other than that, it has precious metals, high quality armor and expensive goods that Ferelden is too poor to be a lucrative market for at the moment.

Hmmm.... you've got a point. Ferelden is more than likely still suffering from a near economic bankruptcy.

That's what she claims. You believe her?
I don't. Orlesian nobility do not have the amount of power like Ferelden's. The vast majority of them only have pointless titles. The Chevaliers are under the Empress' command. That's how the system is designed.

While I probably shouldn't given Orlais' history, I'm placing my trust in Celene's word.


But where was it mentioned chevaliers were under the Empress' command?

[Zanallen]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'd imagine the Ferelden Wardens would be more inclined to follow the Hero of Ferelden if their homeland is being threatened.

What Ferelden Wardens? The PC and Alistair? I suppose you could add Nate or anyone newly Joined. Unless you think there are more lying around somewhere. But even then, how many do you think there are? Probably not enough to make a difference in battle. Wardens aren't any better in combat than anyone else. The Grey Warden order isn't going to side with Ferelden in a war with Orlais.

[TEWR]

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'd imagine the Ferelden Wardens would be more inclined to follow the Hero of Ferelden if their homeland is being threatened.

the Hero of Ferelden and Alistair plus the few people from the Awakening are the only "Ferelden Wardens" to speak of, though. The rest are imports from Orlais and such. If there's some additional local Wardens created after the Awakening ends we don't know, and the Hero of Ferelden appears to be missing at that point of timeline, anyway. Making him/her hard to follow.

Oghren's epilogue in regards to a drinking game of his said "a recruit said she'd rather reattempt the Joining than try and drink again." or something to that effect.


So.... one.


Since Anders' epiloge slides no longer make sense and his presence in DA2 caused a continuity error, I won't mention his epilogue slide.


Add into that Bethany/Carver.

[LobselVith8]

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'd imagine the Ferelden Wardens would be more inclined to follow the Hero of Ferelden if their homeland is being threatened.

the Hero of Ferelden and Alistair plus the few people from the Awakening are the only "Ferelden Wardens" to speak of, though. The rest are imports from Orlais and such. If there's some additional local Wardens created after the Awakening ends we don't know, and the Hero of Ferelden appears to be missing at that point of timeline, anyway. Making him/her hard to follow.

In Awakening, some Orlesian Wardens were brought to Vigil's Keep, but that isn't necessarily the case post-Awakening. The Hero of Ferelden can conscript a few Fereldens into the order to begin with, if Loghain was spared his task was getting new recruits into the order, and roughly a decade has passed since the crisis in Amaranthine. If Anders was able to train a new generation of mages before his role was "revised" for the sequel, I don't see why the Commander of the Grey couldn't fulfill that role if he's a mage.

[Zanallen]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But where was it mentioned chevaliers were under the Empress' command?

The wiki says that all power lies with the empress. Take that as you will.

n Orlais, land is owned exclusively by the aristocracy. Power rests solely in the Emperor as in many monarchies in Thedas where power descends from the throne, unlike Ferelden whose power derives from the support of freeholders. The empress, Celene I, shares the expansionist belief that the nation's borders should stretch to the edges of the continent.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But where was it mentioned chevaliers were under the Empress' command?

The system Drakon put forth was an absolutist top down monarchy. So I am assumign that the chevaliers are under her command, or that the nobles are not strong enough to be able to wage private wars (they use bards for that).

In otherwords, I don't buy it. Celene is too clever and crafty for that.

[ddv.rsa]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I doubt the Dalish Warden would want Orlais commandering control of Ferelden, given the events of the fall of the Dales.  The Surana Warden (as well as the Amell Warden) can request for the Circle of Ferelden to be given its independence, and I don't imagine that the Orlesian Empire will be trying to make the strides in making that happen as much as King Alistair is (since he is still arguing for it seven years later, and protecting apostates from the templars).

The Dales fell to an Exalted March in which all Andrastian nations were involved, including Ferelden.

LobselVith8 wrote...
A mage who is the Arl of Amaranthine has an army (the Silver Order), his order (the Wardens), and potentially even the mages in the Circle of Ferelden (who might view him as their champion for asking the ruler of Ferelden to give them their independence). I don't think victory is that clear cut with The Warden standing between Orlais and Ferelden.

Mage or no, the Warden is long gone from Amaranthine. Who the new Warden-Commander will support is anyone's guess.

[Zanallen]

LobselVith8 wrote...

In Awakening, some Orlesian Wardens were brought to Vigil's Keep, but that isn't necessarily the case post-Awakening. The Hero of Ferelden can conscript a few Fereldens into the order to begin with, if Loghain was spared his task was getting new recruits into the order, and roughly a decade has passed since the crisis in Amaranthine. If Anders was able to train a new generation of mages before his role was "revised" for the sequel, I don't see why the Commander of the Grey couldn't fulfill that role if he's a mage.

Even then, they would be taking people who were already going to fight for Ferelden, these being Fereldan citizens after all, and training them to be Grey Wardens. Grey Wardens are not magically better fighters than normal people. Considering the Joining survival rate, an active recruitment of Wardens would be killing off potential Ferelden troops.

[TEWR]

ok, I now don't trust her if she believes in expansionism. I eagerly await to be proven wrong.

[LobselVith8]

Zanallen wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'd imagine the Ferelden Wardens would be more inclined to follow the Hero of Ferelden if their homeland is being threatened.

What Ferelden Wardens? The PC and Alistair? I suppose you could add Nate or anyone newly Joined. Unless you think there are more lying around somewhere. But even then, how many do you think there are? Probably not enough to make a difference in battle. Wardens aren't any better in combat than anyone else. The Grey Warden order isn't going to side with Ferelden in a war with Orlais.

Aren't better in combat? Sophia Dryden and her Wardens at Soldier's Peak were able to handle themselves against the army of Ferelden. And although I don't think the First Warden would side with Ferelden, I can imagine anyone who is in the order and was from Ferelden would want to protect their homeland against another Orlesian invasion - given nearly a decade has passed since the end of the Amaranthine crisis and the current schism between the Chantry with the templars and mages, I think it's realistic to expect more Fereldens to have joined the order.

[Zanallen]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Aren't better in combat? Sophia Dryden and her Wardens at Soldier's Peak were able to handle themselves against the army of Ferelden. And although I don't think the First Warden would side with Ferelden, I can imagine anyone who is in the order and was from Ferelden would want to protect their homeland against another Orlesian invasion - given nearly a decade has passed since the end of the Amaranthine crisis and the current schism between the Chantry with the templars and mages, I think it's realistic to expect more Fereldens to have joined the order.

That is because Wardens are traditionally chosen from the best of the best. Becoming a Warden doesn't make you a better fighter. All it does it allow you to sense the darkspawn and make you immune to further corruption from the Blight. The Joining ritual is also dangerous. If you are recruiting skilled Ferelden soldiers into the Wardens, some are going to die. There is a chance that many will die. You are basically killing people who were going to fight for Ferelden anyway for absolutely no benefit in a fight against Orlais.

[ddv.rsa]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Aren't better in combat? Sophia Dryden and her Wardens at Soldier's Peak were able to handle themselves against the army of Ferelden. And although I don't think the First Warden would side with Ferelden, I can imagine anyone who is in the order and was from Ferelden would want to protect their homeland against another Orlesian invasion - given nearly a decade has passed since the end of the Amaranthine crisis and the current schism between the Chantry with the templars and mages, I think it's realistic to expect more Fereldens to have joined the order.

Firstly, you're right in that wardens are better warriors. Unless you're above average you never even get to attempt the Joining.

Second, even Ferelden wardens would have to follow orders. If the First Warden says stay neutral they would have to desert.

[LobselVith8]

ddv.rsa wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I doubt the Dalish Warden would want Orlais commandering control of Ferelden, given the events of the fall of the Dales. The Surana Warden (as well as the Amell Warden) can request for the Circle of Ferelden to be given its independence, and I don't imagine that the Orlesian Empire will be trying to make the strides in making that happen as much as King Alistair is (since he is still arguing for it seven years later, and protecting apostates from the templars).

The Dales fell to an Exalted March in which all Andrastian nations were involved, including Ferelden.

Except Ferelden's new ruler has given the Hinterlands to the Dalish, and the Orlesian Empire is looking to conquer all of Ferelden. I doubt the Dalish would keep the Hinterlands after the Orlesians take control of the nation. The Dalish, in this case, would be better suited to side with Ferelden and the recognized Hero of Ferelden than the Orlesians.

ddv.rsa wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

A mage who is the Arl of Amaranthine has an army (the Silver Order), his order (the Wardens), and potentially even the mages in the Circle of Ferelden (who might view him as their champion for asking the ruler of Ferelden to give them their independence). I don't think victory is that clear cut with The Warden standing between Orlais and Ferelden.

Mage or no, the Warden is long gone from Amaranthine. Who the new Warden-Commander will support is anyone's guess.

The Hero of Ferelden is back in Ferelden in Year Seven, based on Bann Tegan and King Alistair's dialogue. If Orlais is recognized as a potential threat at this point in time, I can see the Commander of the Grey being proactive about the potential threat. There's more than enough time for the Warden-Commander to address how the situation should be handled before he "disappears" in three years.

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

In Awakening, some Orlesian Wardens were brought to Vigil's Keep, but that isn't necessarily the case post-Awakening.

Yes, that's why i said we don't know if there wasn't more local Wardens created after the Awakening events end. It's very likely there was. But still, since by the time we reach the second half of DA2 (and most certainly during its epilogue) the DAO PC appears to be missing, it'd be hard for whatever Ferelden Wardens there are to follow his/her command.

edit: regarding presence during the middle of DA2, it can be either way depending which cameo you get. Meeting the Warden Alistair during the qunari outburst can get you a comment which implies rather clear Alistair no longer is in contact with the PC.

Modifié par tmp7704, 17 juin 2011 - 05:31 .

[IanPolaris]

ddv.rsa wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

In short, I suspect that in the special case of Fereldan, when King Alistair goes "Church of England" on the Divine, the Fereldan Templars will go with him and swear fealty to the Crown and the Fereldan Templars will be run by KC Gregoire but under the direction of the Crown.

-Polaris

That's one way it could turn out. I think it's equally likely that just like everywhere else the Templars in Ferelden rebel. They wouldn't have the power to conquer Ferelden or even fight a war, but you could have roving bands of Templars hunting mages and evading the King's army.

I don't think so.  Knight Commander Gregoire seems to like and respect Alistair (at least in DAO) and in DAA the Templars clearly have top down orders (probably from Gregoire) to respect the authority of the monarch.  I am not saying that Gregoire would be very happy about a Fereldan/Divine split, but if he is given a role in policing magic (which does seem to be his top priority) and this avoids an open war with Irving, I can easily see Gregoire going along with it and with him the majority of the Templars.

The Chantry won't be able to do squat about it, and as for Orlais, Orlais has it's own fish to fry (think Neverra) and Fereldan will be able to draw on resources (magical in particular) that Orlais won't.

In short, I don't think this situation is nearly as hopeless as some (KoP in particular) are suggesting.

-Polaris

[ddv.rsa]

IanPolaris wrote...

I don't think so.  Knight Commander Gregoire seems to like and respect Alistair (at least in DAO) and in DAA the Templars clearly have top down orders (probably from Gregoire) to respect the authority of the monarch.  I am not saying that Gregoire would be very happy about a Fereldan/Divine split, but if he is given a role in policing magic (which does seem to be his top priority) and this avoids an open war with Irving, I can easily see Gregoire going along with it and with him the majority of the Templars.
-Polaris

What if Gregoire is dead and Irving is in Orlais?

[IanPolaris]

ddv.rsa wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I don't think so.  Knight Commander Gregoire seems to like and respect Alistair (at least in DAO) and in DAA the Templars clearly have top down orders (probably from Gregoire) to respect the authority of the monarch.  I am not saying that Gregoire would be very happy about a Fereldan/Divine split, but if he is given a role in policing magic (which does seem to be his top priority) and this avoids an open war with Irving, I can easily see Gregoire going along with it and with him the majority of the Templars.
-Polaris

What if Gregoire is dead and Irving is in Orlais?

Then you have Hadely in charge of the Templars and from the limited interaction I got from him (WH), he'd be likely to play ball with Alistair.  As for the new First Enchanter, given the option of allying himself (or herself) with the crown in exchange for MINOR concessions or trying to fight everyone on their own, I expect he or she would go along with the Crown as well...especially since any First Enchanter would have had to have been hand selected by the Templars to start a new Fereldan circle and thus would be less likely to be a Libertarian/Resolutionist.

However, near as I can tell, the 'default' that the game assumes is Alistair is King, Gregoire is KC, and Irving is First Enchanter in Fereldan.

-Polaris

[Foolsfolly]

You know the essential problem of talking about what Celene would do or what Alistair/Anora would do is?

We don't know how much they're going to develop the war and politics of the situation. In all honesty instead of having this global politics and all these interesting alliances and whatnot they could focus on the war ending due to the arrival of a bigger threat (Qunari, Sandel's 'He that rises thing', whatever else).

Yep, I'm that pessimistic about the storyline. With all the cool ideas covered in the last couple of pages we have no idea if the games will follow through on them. Especially, since I doubt the next game will take place all around Thedas, which frankly a global war story demands.

[Furtled]

ddv.rsa wrote...
No, you can't request a military alliance. You can request aid in the Deep Roads. That doesn't mean Orzammar will suddenly start invovling itself in surface wars.

Ah - I'd always assumed it would be the beginnings of something more formal, especially if Behlen's on the throne looking to increase trade with the surface and taking into consideration the Legions involvement with Maric's rebellion. Suppose it could go either way.

Modifié par Furtled, 17 juin 2011 - 08:59 .

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I wonder if Sketch knows about Leliana being a Seeker. I wonder if anti-mage Leliana (if that's what she truly is now) would have no qualms about slaying Sketch.

Really doubting Leliana is anti-mage when she's working together with Cassandra and trying to stop the all-out war with the rebelled mages. I mean, someone anti-mage would be very busy with just the opposite instead, like actually killing mages left, right and centre.

Personally I find it impossible believe she's anti-mage as well. But some comments I've seen have been about how she's now anti-mage so that's why I brought it up.


Considering she admired Wynne, was friends with Sketch, and could potentially fall in love with a Mage Warden, her being anti-mage just wouldn't work.

As I understand it, the logic goes that people are surprised by her anti-mage stance--at least anti-mage as they've interpreted it--specifically because she didn't seem at all opposed to magic or mages in Origins.  It's led a lot of people to suspect that her entire shtick in Origins was a deception.  In that light, it make sense enough and works just fine.

Of interest is that even when you first meet her in Lothering, she's wearing an amulet called the Seeker's Circle.