1008 réponses à ce sujet

[Deztyn]

IanPolaris wrote...

What makes you think that ANY Templar would even consider allowing a mage (let alone an open apostate) take any noble title if they can possibly help it?  The Viscount ending for the pro-templar mage-hawke makes zero sense.

-Polaris

Aaaaaand in my original comment I said it was the only thing out of place in the pro-templar mage ending. But it is still part of the ending. Even if it doesn't make much sense.

Silfren wrote...

But he was referring to the mages perception of Hawke, not the general population's. 

Um.

He was quoting me.

I explained my view.

Which has nothing to do with how mages view Hawke and everything to do with how Hawke can change the perception of mages.

[Torax]

IanPolaris wrote...

Agreed, mages would likely regard a mage-hawke that sided with the Templars as their equivalent of Benedict Arnold.

-Polaris

Some mages would. I doubt every single Fraternity would side with the Libs and Resos. The "Chantry Apologists" wouldn't that is for sure...

Modifié par Torax, 17 juin 2011 - 11:17 .

[Foolsfolly]

Deztyn:

It's easiest with Shepard since I'm so familiar with all her dialogue and the plot points. I know from character creation what type of person a Shepard is and what big choices she's likely to make and that informs all the little choices I make as I go along. I never go pure renegade or pure paragon. The last full playthrough I did was a ruthless colonist Shepard who hates batarians and mistrusts aliens in general, utterly unforgiving to her enemies but never anything but compassionate to (deserving) humans. Ended up with full renegade, and about half paragon. A character. Not just whatever I feel like as the player.

Yes it is. Shepard's like an old glove. I can start off with anything in mind and playing as that Shepard works. Rarely do I feel anything in the way to stop me from being that Shepard.

I felt the opposite with the Warden. The whole approval system shot that to hell. I'm always going to metagame the "get every companion" thing. And having to be sympathetic with all the characters and giving them and always being an encouraging spokesman....sometimes counters my pragmatic "The Blight must be ended no matter the cost" kind of character. I've always felt that the approval system should have been cut out of Origins to allow for an experience much more in-line with Mass Effect's companion system.

[ddv.rsa]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I felt the opposite with the Warden. The whole approval system shot that to hell. I'm always going to metagame the "get every companion" thing. And having to be sympathetic with all the characters and giving them and always being an encouraging spokesman...

The friendship/rivalry system is one of the few improvements of DA2. At least you can disagree with someone and not miss out.

[Foolsfolly]

I love the Friendship/Rivalry system. It needs a tiny bit of work but it's such an improvement over the Origins/KOTOR2 system.

[HSHAW]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

I felt the opposite with the Warden. The whole approval system shot that to hell. I'm always going to metagame the "get every companion" thing. And having to be sympathetic with all the characters and giving them and always being an encouraging spokesman...

The friendship/rivalry system is one of the few improvements of DA2. At least you can disagree with someone and not miss out.

Even if it has a few flaws that need to be straightened out.

[Torax]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I love the Friendship/Rivalry system. It needs a tiny bit of work but it's such an improvement over the Origins/KOTOR2 system.

I think the Friendship/Rivalry system was great. That you can have respect for someone and still not fully agree. Though I doubt they could ever write a system that appease every player. One thing I enjoyed I think was how the voice and tone of the player character evolved over time based on your conversation choices. I know many didn't like how certain responses felt like they didn't fit in a situation. I do feel that if they had a way of letting players preview what would actually be said in a response would help resolve some issues. I just think my character changing in attitude and demeanor is a far better way than say just showing scars and decay for if they're being all sith/renegade alas Kotor & ME2.

[Foolsfolly]

I've said before on this site, the one thing I want is to separate cruel petty mean things from Rivalry points. Rivalry is a deepened relationship and being cruel and mean just doesn't deepen relationships. These options should remain in the game but should subtract from either Friendship or Rivalry to bring it closer to the middle of the slide.

Just a small refining of the system and it's deeper and works better. In my honest opinion anyway. You are right, Torax, no system will please everyone.

[ddv.rsa]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I've said before on this site, the one thing I want is to separate cruel petty mean things from Rivalry points. Rivalry is a deepened relationship and being cruel and mean just doesn't deepen relationships. These options should remain in the game but should subtract from either Friendship or Rivalry to bring it closer to the middle of the slide.

This is a pretty cool idea. If you haven't already you should post this in the "Constructive Criticism" thread.

[Deztyn]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Yes it is. Shepard's like an old glove. I can start off with anything in mind and playing as that Shepard works. Rarely do I feel anything in the way to stop me from being that Shepard.

*Wants to go play ME now*

I felt the opposite with the Warden. The whole approval system shot that to hell. I'm always going to metagame the "get every companion" thing. And having to be sympathetic with all the characters and giving them and always being an encouraging spokesman....sometimes counters my pragmatic "The Blight must be ended no matter the cost" kind of character. I've always felt that the approval system should have been cut out of Origins to allow for an experience much more in-line with Mass Effect's companion system.

I like the approval system, I like that there are consequences to your actions. And I'm okay with not getting every companion. (Well... Zev...) but I see what you mean. It really encourages metagaming. And the gifts are totally immersion breaking.

"Warden! You just slaughtered an innocent family, burned down an orphanage and kicked a puppy!"

"Um. Here Wynne, have a book."

<3 Wynne Approves (+10)

This is why I like the rivalry system at least in theory. I think it would have worked better if there were separate scales (ala paragon/renegade) it's too easy to end up in the middle with some companions. And it's also sort of ridiculous that you can support slavery, even own a slave and still get Fenris to 100% friendmance as long as you hate mages.

Modifié par Deztyn, 18 juin 2011 - 12:01 .

[Deztyn]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I've said before on this site, the one thing I want is to separate cruel petty mean things from Rivalry points. Rivalry is a deepened relationship and being cruel and mean just doesn't deepen relationships. These options should remain in the game but should subtract from either Friendship or Rivalry to bring it closer to the middle of the slide.

That would work great with separate Rivalry and Friendship scales.

[Torax]

The trick is the writing. Look at how Rivalry works in the case of Merrill. You can be supportive. You only disagree on one key thing. That is "fitting" to the character. I mean look at the Rivalry for Isabela. That is more about pressuring her to be a good person for Andraste's sake. It fits for how she is written. Rivalry as they are defining it for DA2, appeared to basically be about having disagreements with someone you still respect. It's not Renegade or Paragon. The problem is trying to look at a game like DA2 from the lens of other games. You cannot. Trying to apply rp tactics from one game to another never works. I will at least give them credit that with DA2 they were trying a new way of not just going with a positive/negative format. Even if the end result still could be the same for any crisis point for said companion.

Modifié par Torax, 18 juin 2011 - 12:02 .

[Torax]

bah lag double posting

Modifié par Torax, 18 juin 2011 - 12:01 .

[Deztyn]

Well, in the system I'd propose the only real difference is you would never be stuck completely in the middle. Whichever was higher (Friend or Rivalry) would win, but you would still have to get to 25%, 50%, 75%, 100% or whatever level of rivalry or friendship in order to take certain dialogue options, romance them or convince them to side with you in the end. Once you reach 100% friendship or rivalry you'd still be locked in. Well, combining that with Foolsfolly's idea. I would still penalize certain actions that a character would never respect or or agree to disagree with, and unlock the max friendship/rivalry at that point. (No slaves for you Hawke.)

[Foolsfolly]

Torax wrote...

The trick is the writing. Look at how Rivalry works in the case of Merrill. You can be supportive. You only disagree on one key thing. That is "fitting" to the character. I mean look at the Rivalry for Isabela. That is more about pressuring her to be a good person for Andraste's sake. It fits for how she is written. Rivalry as they are defining it for DA2, appeared to basically be about having disagreements with someone you still respect. It's not Renegade or Paragon. The problem is trying to look at a game like DA2 from the lens of other games. You cannot. Trying to apply rp tactics from one game to another never works. I will at least give them credit that with DA2 they were trying a new way of not just going with a positive/negative format. Even if the end result still could be the same for any crisis point for said companion.

Exactly. I like the Rivalry paths. I also think Sebstian's Rivalry is well done, you push him towards retaking his land. He doesn't hate you for it, you're not against him or hating on him. You just tell him, someone should rule his land and why not the last Vael?

[Foolsfolly]

I like having the option of the middle. It means they're not opening up to you, romancing you, and are merely hanging around with the player because they have nothing else to do. Or whatever genre reason why someone would routinely go into massive fights where they could die for someone they barely know.

Related, a little, did anyone else have trouble bringing Aveline with them at first? My first character barely used her entirely because she had an important job to do and I didn't want her to be absent to her duties.

Later playthroughs I didn't care at all. It was interesting since companions in these kinds of games rarely ever have a life outside of being companion. So when I had the Guard Captain walking around shopping it felt like I was hurting the guard by having their Captain waste time away from the office.

I know. It's weird.

[ddv.rsa]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Related, a little, did anyone else have trouble bringing Aveline with them at first? My first character barely used her entirely because she had an important job to do and I didn't want her to be absent to her duties.

I pretty much ruled her out. For me it didn't make sense for the Captain of the Guard to be running around with Hawke. In ME I did the same with Liara. She stays with Shepard because she fears for her safety, so it doesn't make sense to be dragging her into firefighters. In ME2 Miranda, Tali and Kasumi almost never left the Normandy. There's someone like that in every game.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 18 juin 2011 - 12:38 .

[Deztyn]

There would still be a 'meh' approval rating in that you have low friendship or rivalry. You just wouldn't have to deal with the constant middling that can come from agreeing with a character on somethings and disagreeing on others. To keep using Fenris as an example, I've seen many people complain that they have Hawkes that hate slavery do all of Fenris's personal quests and support him as much as possible but get stuck in the middle because they support mages. My way we'd still have a clear winner of rivalry or friendship by the end of the game depending on how you play it. But you might still fail to achieve 100% of either. (Would need to rebalance and change up the amount of friendship/rivalry you earn from options though.)

Edit: And yeah, Aveline stayed and did her job for the most part. I sometimes take her along for quests where it makes sense for her to be going with you as a guard. But I preferred Fenris as my warrior.

Modifié par Deztyn, 18 juin 2011 - 12:42 .

[LobselVith8]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Related, a little, did anyone else have trouble bringing Aveline with them at first? My first character barely used her entirely because she had an important job to do and I didn't want her to be absent to her duties.

Varric has an interesting conversation with Aveline about that. He asks her what she does in her off-duty hours when she's not helping Hawke fight antagonists, and Aveline admits these are her off-duty hours. "And the trend of you scaring the ****** out of me continues."

Modifié par LobselVith8, 18 juin 2011 - 12:47 .

[Foolsfolly]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Related, a little, did anyone else have trouble bringing Aveline with them at first? My first character barely used her entirely because she had an important job to do and I didn't want her to be absent to her duties.

I pretty much ruled her out. For me it didn't make sense for the Captain of the Guard to be running around with Hawke. In ME I did the same with Liara. She stays with Shepard because she fears for her safety, so it doesn't make sense to be dragging her into firefighters. In ME2 Miranda, Tali and Kasumi almost never left the Normandy. There's someone like that in every game.

I can see not bringing along Liara in ME1. She's a scienist, not a warrior. I can understand that but I would bring her along, personally.

Miranda, Tali, and Kasumi however...Miranda's got the best passive in the game by increasing everyone's health and damage. And Kasumi's shadow strike is too amazing to not use. Tali's gotten a huge nerf, she's alright against geth and other robots but only after you get her Energy Drain. Until then she's useless. So not bringing Tali because of her terrible powers is one thing but she's a squad leader who takes on special ops for the Qurian fleet.

And Miranda's a field leader for Cerberus who's designed to be the best at what she does.

Kasumi's the odd one out here. She's a thief who doesn't work in teams. But if her loyalty mission is any indication she's used to big battles and can certaintly hold her own against them. And again, her shadow strike is good against barrier, armor, and shields making it unique in that regard. It's like an Overload/Warp mixed with healing her (since her shields will usually go back up while she's invisible).

[Torax]

I just never found a reason to truly need a tank. Plus if you do need one, Isabela and Fenris can both be very tough to kill. Infact I think the most annoying and long "boss" fight was when I took Fenris into the fade without Merrill there. NEVER AGAIN!!! Granted it was Fenris vs. a Mage...

[Foolsfolly]

I am ultra-conservative with my team builds. I like building a team around a tank. Even if the game doesn't really require a tank, I build with one in mind.

So all my playthroughs after the first one (where I basically shunned Aveline) usually have Aveline in it. And one Mage support, one Mage damager, and one Rogue to lockpick and if Isabela DPS.

[Torax]

Foolsfolly wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Related, a little, did anyone else have trouble bringing Aveline with them at first? My first character barely used her entirely because she had an important job to do and I didn't want her to be absent to her duties.

I pretty much ruled her out. For me it didn't make sense for the Captain of the Guard to be running around with Hawke. In ME I did the same with Liara. She stays with Shepard because she fears for her safety, so it doesn't make sense to be dragging her into firefighters. In ME2 Miranda, Tali and Kasumi almost never left the Normandy. There's someone like that in every game.

I can see not bringing along Liara in ME1. She's a scienist, not a warrior. I can understand that but I would bring her along, personally.

Miranda, Tali, and Kasumi however...Miranda's got the best passive in the game by increasing everyone's health and damage. And Kasumi's shadow strike is too amazing to not use. Tali's gotten a huge nerf, she's alright against geth and other robots but only after you get her Energy Drain. Until then she's useless. So not bringing Tali because of her terrible powers is one thing but she's a squad leader who takes on special ops for the Qurian fleet.

And Miranda's a field leader for Cerberus who's designed to be the best at what she does.

Kasumi's the odd one out here. She's a thief who doesn't work in teams. But if her loyalty mission is any indication she's used to big battles and can certaintly hold her own against them. And again, her shadow strike is good against barrier, armor, and shields making it unique in that regard. It's like an Overload/Warp mixed with healing her (since her shields will usually go back up while she's invisible).

Sorry just figured I'd add. My main group for Shep in about every case is mostly taking 2 of these 3 characters in no particular order.

Grunt (For any class of Shep w/out incendiary ammo. Or even just cause he's awesome)
Thane (For if I want the dps + some added biotics)
Zaeed (Like Thane, they both use sniper rifles and have a ton of weapon damage. Perfect).

Usually have Grunt with either of them so they're fed Incendiary Ammo. Biotics doesn't make or break a battle generally. If Shep has Incend I just Max mine for damage and may still use Grunt for Thane or Zaeed. I like Zaeed but Thane is just too cool for School.


Edited to add about Aveline,

I know tanks are nice. I just found her shouting takes too long that for how many fights (Especially around town) she's still shouting by the time Fenris would have killed an entire squad solo. It felt like that anyway. Like a waste of a party slot.

Modifié par Torax, 18 juin 2011 - 01:00 .

[ddv.rsa]

Foolsfolly wrote...

...
Miranda, Tali, and Kasumi however...Miranda's got the best passive in the game by increasing everyone's health and damage. And Kasumi's shadow strike is too amazing to not use. Tali's gotten a huge nerf, she's alright against geth and other robots but only after you get her Energy Drain. Until then she's useless. So not bringing Tali because of her terrible powers is one thing but she's a squad leader who takes on special ops for the Qurian fleet.

And Miranda's a field leader for Cerberus who's designed to be the best at what she does.

Kasumi's the odd one out here. She's a thief who doesn't work in teams. But if her loyalty mission is any indication she's used to big battles and can certaintly hold her own against them. And again, her shadow strike is good against barrier, armor, and shields making it unique in that regard. It's like an Overload/Warp mixed with healing her (since her shields will usually go back up while she's invisible).

Summary of my reasons on companions that don't fight:
Tali: Engineer, should work on Normandy.
Miranda: XO/second in command, handles Normandy when Shepard is not present.
Kasumi: Thief, not a soldier. Only suitable for certain special operations.
Mordin: Scientist, should be researching.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 18 juin 2011 - 01:02 .

[Foolsfolly]

Grunt, Tali, Jack, Jacob, and Legion tend to be my least used members.

Grunt because Zaeed, Garrus, and Thane do his job better. Zaeed and Thane have the Sniper Rifle and a passive that allows for a +50% damage to the sniper rifle. They're kings of tearing through enemies especially since the Incisor rifle is a monster in their hands.

Tali because she's largely useless. She doesn't have the health to be a shotgunner and her abilities are garbage. I have never been a fan of Combat Drone. It just does nothing for me but it's especially useless in a companion since its cooldown locks out every other ability for an obscene amount of time. AI Hacking isn't worth a skill point since robots are rare and it lasts for a few seconds on the types you'd want to hack. Energy Drain is actually useful but Miranda and Kasumi have Overload which is just as useful but with more useful companions. Sorry, Tali. I love you but you're usually running maintenance on my ship.

Jack because her only useful ability is Warp Ammo which is great....but without Warp she's out classed by Miranda and Samara who have useful offensive biotics, something Jack lacks. Her usefulness plummets the higher the difficulty goes. Which is a shame, Jack's a great character.

Jacob's a weaker Grunt, except Grunt has an Assault rifle. He hangs around to set up Warp Explosions. Mostly he's replaced by Zaeed or Kasumi as soon as I get control of the Normandy.

Legion's barely used entirely due to the fact that I get him too late in the game. His abilities are very similar to Tali which is a mark against him. But he has a Widow Sniper Rifle and a shield power that increases his weapon damage. I get the feeling that if I got him earlier I'd use him more. But he's an Engineer character with a sniper rifle and usually after I get him and do his loyalty all that's left is to fight the Collectors who are not robots...and Thane's a Sniper with Warp and +50% damage passive (mixed with Miranda additional +% to damage and he's a beast).