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[KnightofPhoenix]

Herr Uhl wrote...

In Exile wrote...

A good example being the Grey Wardens. They exist because of blood magic. Mages were pushed far enough, in their desperation, to use it to create an order that might, as a last-ditch hope, defeated the archdemon.

Just a nitpick, that was during the height of the Tevinter Imperium and blood magic wasn't nearly as stigmatized, if stigmatized at all, as it is "now".

So I don't think it was a case of them being pushed to it.

If I could take a guess, I think the Order's secretive nature was established more with Drakon of Orlais, also the founder of the Chantry. The Wardens were his close allies however (almost lackeys), so it could be that the "tradition" of secrecy started from there to avoid antagonizing the newly formed Chantry.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 juin 2011 - 05:32 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

In Exile wrote...

That's what I see the moral issue (re: conduct in war) as in general. It's about what you're willing to deny to keep yourself from descending into barbarism.

I think that's particularly important with the mage/templar war, because if the mages win, they overthrow the entire political system they were held under. When it comes time to create a new system, or a new state, it's that moral conduct that will be the difference between a just and unjust society.
...

Thinking on the issue, I think we could say pragmatically that we want the sort of right conduct that would enable building an equitable society instead of an exploitative one. It's easy to go from oppressed to oppressor, particularly when the fear, pain and shame of your oppression is still fresh in your mind. 

At the very least, I think that if you are going to carry out a campaign for an ostensibly moral reason (i.e. end the exploitation of the oppressed) you ought to hold yourself to a higher standard.

I have nothing further to add to that, except to say: very well said.

[Silfren]

maxernst wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I think the fact that Tevinter is not a distant memory speaks to the fact that abominations and blood mages don't spell the end of civilization as we know it.  If mages living free was the apocalyptic calamity the (White) Chantry would have us believe, then it stands to reason that Tevinter would be a smoking ruin, since not only are mages free, but in charge of the place.  

Yes, that is true. I think the main issue is that one injustice can't be an answer to another. Even if the Imperium caused all that suffering a long time ago, it in no way excuses the shackling of the mages we see now in other parts of Thedas.

Except that as soon as the mages were let free, they wound up right back where they started.
Tevinter may not be a smoking ruin, but huge numbers of people are kept in much worse conditions than the mages in the rest of Thedas.  Being afraid that the mages will take over and enslave everybody else is not an irrational fear.  Without a system in place designed to prevent it from happening, I think eventually the mages will always take over.  And it will always be the blood mages who take control, because they have that extra power source, as well as the ability to mind control others, whereas other mages risk becoming addicted to lyrium if they try and go beyond their natural mana supply.  To me, mages are like a group of people that posess a huge technological edge on their neighbors, except that their edge is innate and can't be reverse-engineered or bought.  And if our history is any indication, the fate of the technological have nots has not been a pretty one, even in cases where they hugely outnumbered the more advanced group, as in the case of Cortez and Pizarro in Latin America.  The Tevinter Imperium is a very plausible and logical outcome of having a minority with extraordinary superhuman abilities. 

Wrong.  "The mages" didn't end up right back where they started.  The magisters of the Tevinter Imperium did.  Mage =/= Tevinter Magister.  What you're not bringing into the equation is that Tevinter was a place where slavery and magocracy were already a part of the cultural and socio-political framework.  Mages elsewhere in Thedas don't have that as a cultural socio-political foundation, and that makes a difference.  Most mages in Thedas have been raised within a system where for a thousand years the tradition has been that Andraste despises slavery and magical domination, and the vast majority of mages, like the rest of Thedas, has grown up with this belief internalized.  Just like any other population, as much as you are going to have your rogue elements who have no issue with murder, thieving, rape, and various other anti-social behaviors, they are nevertheless going to be a very small percentage of the total population.  A well trained templar force would suffice for keeping those elements from Destroying The World As We Know It.

The existence of mind-control magic and potentially evil blood mages is an argument for having an independent police force set up to combat rogues.  That doesn't have to mean locking the mages away from the populace in Circles, however.  There is no logical reason whatsoever for the Chantry to have a monopoly on mage-hunters--at least not from that standpoint. 

[Silfren]

tmp7704 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I'm sorry to say, I'm underwhelmed by that revelation.  Seventy murders over the course of a year doesn't strike me as a catastrophic level of Doom.  That's fewer than two deaths a week.  Any person can cause that level of damage, with nothing more than their bare hands.  If possessed mages are supposed to be so much more apocalyptically dangerous than a non-mage, or even just a non-possessed mage, that codex fails to convey it.

To put it in perspective, Ted Bundy took four years to kill 30 people. And it was enough to give him permanent spot as one of the most known serial killers. The infamous Jack the Ripper? Linked to 11 murders, at best.

While "any person can cause that level of damage" in theory, few people actually do.

And the same would go for rogue mages.  There is no reason whatsoever to believe a substantial population of mages living free would turn criminal.  In any population, the percentage of violent criminals is always a very small portion of the overall population.  We don't lock up whole droves of people to account for the potential actions of a tiny minority.

[Silfren]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Go ahead, repost the damn thing.  The damage is already done, I'm irreparably scarred for life thanks to you and your enablers.  *glares at various forumites*

I actually have other ones.

<_<

That said....I have no choice but to ask...what scene is the second one based from?  

Both scenes are the romance scenes between Hawke and Merrill, replaced with pure unadulterated evil.

Not both.  The top one is Anders' romance scene.

[Yakko77]

Ryzaki wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

They wanted siding with the Templars to be a reasonable choice, rather than having supporting the mages be a no brainer.

The problem is that they did this by having mages act randomly evil all the time, instead of having the Templars act with some semblance of rationality.

This pretty much. 

There was so many crazies on both sides I kind of wanted to nuke them all and be done with it. 

As I often say, I do wish we could've channeled our inner Eric Cartman and said, "Screw you guys, I'm going home."

[Silfren]

Deztyn wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
My preferred way to fix everything in Ferelden is to get someone who is sane and rational made Divine. I'd rather reform Andrasteism than crush it. I'd far prefer an Andrasteism that is closer to its original roots, especially if it turns out that Andraste was, you know, a mage, as we're lead to suspect when we find the Ashes. More than anything, I'd like to see the whole church change because of this, stop preaching that mages are Maker-cursed, restore the parts of history they've expurgated, stop oppressing the elves and spreading propaganda about the Dalish.

Nearly every reference to the mages being cursed that I can remember is about their alarming ability to become possessed by a demon and go on a rampage. I don't think that's something mages should ever stop hearing about

What you're making a mistake with, in my very humble opinion, is in assuming that such possession happens in a vacuum - without even considering the causes.

What you're making a mistake with, in my very humble opinion, is in assuming that you can read my mind based on a single comment that says nothing about why I believe such possessions happen.

I know what I think, I don't need you to tell me. Thanks.

Constantly reminding ("accusing" is the precise word actually) someone that he/she may fall prey to a demon would not be my way of going about it. It would simply work toward undermining his/her confidence in countering such possession and confidence in the Chantry itself, to say the least. My objective, if I were taking up such a task, would be to arm the person better against becoming possessed.

A mages training IS to prepare them to face demons as well as to control their powers. The Harrowing is the final test of that training.  And mages damn well better learn they're demon magnets sooner rather than later. (Perhaps that should have been Jowan's first lesson to Connor?) If the powers that demons possess scare them, well they should. And I'd like to remind you that it isn't the Chantry that trains mages, it's other mages. Successful ones.

What I'm interested in though is about the situation in Tevinter. Do we hear anything about possession being as common there as you suggest it is in Ferelden and/or Kirkwall (CulturalGeekGirl did say Ferelden, rather mistakenly, I think)?  And is it as catastropic? If it is not common or catastropic, why is it not so? What is it that makes demons prey particularly upon those mages we've seen in Kirkwall, for instance?

"The Imperium has its own templars, and they too must act when mages cross the line. The line is in a different place, but the end result is the same. We will see abominations born of terror and wrath, men you never believed capable of depravity embracing it gladly." ~ Fenris, advising Hawke during the Templar Ending.

If I had to hazard a guess I'd say  it's not common or catastrophic because there are templars to kill the mages before they get too far out of control. Funny how that could work.

In any case, I think more research on demonic possessions needs to be undertaken. I know the Chantry and the Templars forbid it, as suggested in the Journal of Enchanter Wilhelm. We hardly seem to know anything about the "whys" of things (not much about the Fade, about the spirits and demons that inhabit it), and certainly these restrictions aren't helping much. The Litany of Andralla is another example of a research actually benefitting - the Chantry seems to have little qualms about the Circle using it, even though it doesn't sanction such research - a hyporcitical attitude at best.

The codex entries on demons were written by a senior enchanter who studied them. Right up until he was seduced by a Desire Demon. There's good reason to limit or outright forbid the study of demons. They have an unfortunate tendency to corrupt or possess mages.

Except that if you limit or forbid the study of demons, you ensure that you'll never be fully equipped to fight against them.  Even Adralla, as has been pointed out, had to have actively used blood magic in order to have been able to develop the Litany. 

Also, Tevinter has templars to control abominations and such, and yet doesn't lock away mages.  Funny how that could work...

[Silfren]

In Exile wrote...



Blood magic, moreso than any other kind of magic, has multiple immoral uses as a consequence of being used, not per se how it is used. For one, it needs blood. That means your blood (so you're hurting yourself, but let's file that under Mill's principle and say it's neutral) or the blood of others, and that gets into issues of consent (which are always thorny). Mental domination is, I would argue, de facto immoral.

This is purely subjective.  I don't personally think there's anything whatsoever wrong with using one's own blood.  That's not a "neutral" case--a person has an innate right to use their own body however they see fit.  There's nothing "neutral" about it at all from the standpoint of being used.

Nor do I see anything "always thorny" about consent.  If a person is making a free and informed choice, there's nothing thorny about it. Yes, I'm aware that there are going to be times when the question of consent is problematic, but it's hardly an issue that is always problematic.  It's not as though people who are capable of free and informed consent are rare.

You've presented exactly one situation in which blood magic is always (and even then I'd argue that there are justifiable cases) immoral, but you've defeated your own point in that one case, as mental domination refers to HOW blood magic is used, not just using it, period.

[Silfren]

Somewhat off topic, but I've seen the point raised twice now about mages and lyrium.

We know that templars become addicted to it as a matter of course after they take their vows. It stands to reason that anyone ingesting lyrium would become addicted, but as far as I know the obvious thing about mages becoming addicted is never so much as even hinted at. Is there something about being a mage that protects the individual from lyrium's worst effects?

[MichaelFinnegan]

Silfren wrote...

Somewhat off topic, but I've seen the point raised twice now about mages and lyrium.

We know that templars become addicted to it as a matter of course after they take their vows. It stands to reason that anyone ingesting lyrium would become addicted, but as far as I know the obvious thing about mages becoming addicted is never so much as even hinted at.

It is, actually. The codex entry on Lyrium:
"Lyrium has its costs, however. Prolonged use becomes addictive, the cravings unbearable. Over time, templars grow disoriented, incapable of distinguishing memory from present, or dream from waking. They frequently become paranoid as their worst memories and nightmares haunt their waking hours. Mages have additionally been known to suffer physical mutation"

Is there something about being a mage that protects the individual from lyrium's worst effects?

For a mage, lyrium might be like a double edged sword. It gives more power and awareness in the fade; but it also more detrimental to them. Especially, it is said that raw lyrium can be fatal to them.

[The Baconer]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...
"Lyrium has its costs, however. Prolonged use becomes addictive, the cravings unbearable. Over time, templars grow disoriented, incapable of distinguishing memory from present, or dream from waking. They frequently become paranoid as their worst memories and nightmares haunt their waking hours. Mages have additionally been known to suffer physical mutation"

Interesting. Is it possible that it's use is reserved for Templars in the Circles? Because I don't see why cases like that are never encountered but Templars battling Lyrium addiction are.

Modifié par The Baconer, 21 juin 2011 - 08:44 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

The Baconer wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...
"Lyrium has its costs, however. Prolonged use becomes addictive, the cravings unbearable. Over time, templars grow disoriented, incapable of distinguishing memory from present, or dream from waking. They frequently become paranoid as their worst memories and nightmares haunt their waking hours. Mages have additionally been known to suffer physical mutation"

Interesting. Is it possible that it's use is reserved for Templars in the Circles? Because I don't see why cases like that are never encountered but Templars battling Lyrium addiction are.

It appears to be a long term effect. So, going by that, if I could take a guess, templars are probably fed lyrium to keep them in line, to make them act without question. For mages, that is not particularly the issue. They are probably allowed to consume lyrium during conditions of battle, to enhance their powers. Or, as in the case of Connor, where they have to send someone into the Fade.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Templars are given lyrium because they need it to learn, or at least enhance, their talents. Mages would only need lyrium if their own magical powers are insufficient. Hence they are exposed to lyrium alot less than aTemplar, which would also account for the reasons that we don't see alot of lyrium addeled mages. Add to that the idea of a mage who would be unable to discern between real/imagination and present/past and are horribly mutated, and you get the picture of why the Circles try to avoid having their mages grow an addiction to lyrium.

[Harid]

Don't recall it being said there were Tevinter Templars in the Imperium. I was under the impression mages ran the show there, and instead of being controlled by Templars, you are controlled by other mages.

I thought the templars there were templars in name only and were largely just soldiers under the control of mages.  If they could resist magic they could. . .well, simply take over themselves and I would not think a mage would not factor that in in their control over them.

If that's the case they really aren't much of a factor in controlling mages and are largely an empty threat, they could easily be handled by any competant blood mage.  I mean, lorewise, the only people who have killed a Blood Mage that weren't able to resist magic was like. . .Hawke, the Warden. . .and maybe some guy from Dragon Age Legend?  They tend to kill everyone else, even templars that can resist magic with ease, what the hell are they gonna do to regular mook knights?

Anyone can cite anything to spark my memory?

Modifié par Harid, 21 juin 2011 - 11:15 .

[Silfren]

Harid wrote...

Don't recall it being said there were Tevinter Templars in the Imperium. I was under the impression mages ran the show there, and instead of being controlled by Templars, you are controlled by other mages.

Fenris refers to Tevinter having its own templars if you side with the templars at the end.  Also, pointing out that there are templars in the Imperium is hardly saying that they're controlling the mages.  Yes, mages are the ones in control there, but the existence of templars doesn't have to mean that they're controlling anything. 

I thought the templars there were templars in name only and were largely just soldiers under the control of mages.  If they could resist magic they could. . .well, simply take over themselves and I would not think a mage would not factor that in in their control over them.

That there are templars in Tevinter tells me that even the magisters are well aware of the need for some kind of policing force to deal with mages that become abominations, etc.  You're defaulting on the assumption that it's an either/or case of someone being in sole control.  But remember that the culture and socio-political climate of Tevinter is a completely different animal from elsewhere in Thedas.  Templars in the Imperium are most likely, as you point out, under the authority of the Magisters, their role being not to subjugate any mages at all, but to guard against rogues.  

If that's the case they really aren't much of a factor in controlling mages and are largely an empty threat, they could easily be handled by any competant blood mage.  I mean, lorewise, the only people who have killed a Blood Mage that weren't able to resist magic was like. . .Hawke, the Warden. . .and maybe some guy from Dragon Age Legend?  They tend to kill everyone else, even templars that can resist magic with ease, what the hell are they gonna do to regular mook knights?

This assumes that the purpose of templars in Tevinter is to control all mages, rather than to hunt those that go bad.  And I would imagine that they don't simply send out one or two templars after an abomination run amok, but a small army.  Bearing in mind that the culture of Tevinter is completely different from the rest of Thedas, it's hardly appropriate to guess at what might be the case based on any models outside of the Imperium.

Anyone can cite anything to spark my memory?

Well, as far as there being templars in the Imperium, someone quoted the relevant bits from Fenris a few posts up.

Modifié par Silfren, 21 juin 2011 - 11:32 .

[Silfren]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Somewhat off topic, but I've seen the point raised twice now about mages and lyrium.

We know that templars become addicted to it as a matter of course after they take their vows. It stands to reason that anyone ingesting lyrium would become addicted, but as far as I know the obvious thing about mages becoming addicted is never so much as even hinted at.

It is, actually. The codex entry on Lyrium:
"Lyrium has its costs, however. Prolonged use becomes addictive, the cravings unbearable. Over time, templars grow disoriented, incapable of distinguishing memory from present, or dream from waking. They frequently become paranoid as their worst memories and nightmares haunt their waking hours. Mages have additionally been known to suffer physical mutation"

Is there something about being a mage that protects the individual from lyrium's worst effects?

For a mage, lyrium might be like a double edged sword. It gives more power and awareness in the fade; but it also more detrimental to them. Especially, it is said that raw lyrium can be fatal to them.

Ah, okay, I recall that codex now, but it still strikes me as odd that the game seems to focus on templars almost to the exclusion of mages.  Mages may not be systematically addicted to the substance as a dliberate means of control by the Chantry, but given lyrium's obvious use as a mana enhancer/replacement, you'd think the subject of addiction would be just as appropriate to mages.  Especially apostates who don't use blood magic.  I've always just found it odd that the question of addiction is almost always discussed in reference to templars, particularly since it seems that it doesn't take much exposure to lyrium to create said addiction, if I recall.  I've always assumed that there was something about being a mage that gave such individuals some kind of inherent immunity to refined lyrium. 

Raw lyrium is more or less fatal to everyone, templar, mage, or otherwise.  Even dwarves don't need to handle the raw stuff without protective gear. 

[Torax]

Silfren wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Somewhat off topic, but I've seen the point raised twice now about mages and lyrium.

We know that templars become addicted to it as a matter of course after they take their vows. It stands to reason that anyone ingesting lyrium would become addicted, but as far as I know the obvious thing about mages becoming addicted is never so much as even hinted at.

It is, actually. The codex entry on Lyrium:
"Lyrium has its costs, however. Prolonged use becomes addictive, the cravings unbearable. Over time, templars grow disoriented, incapable of distinguishing memory from present, or dream from waking. They frequently become paranoid as their worst memories and nightmares haunt their waking hours. Mages have additionally been known to suffer physical mutation"

Is there something about being a mage that protects the individual from lyrium's worst effects?

For a mage, lyrium might be like a double edged sword. It gives more power and awareness in the fade; but it also more detrimental to them. Especially, it is said that raw lyrium can be fatal to them.

Ah, okay, I recall that codex now, but it still strikes me as odd that the game seems to focus on templars almost to the exclusion of mages.  Mages may not be systematically addicted to the substance as a dliberate means of control by the Chantry, but given lyrium's obvious use as a mana enhancer/replacement, you'd think the subject of addiction would be just as appropriate to mages.  Especially apostates who don't use blood magic.  I've always just found it odd that the question of addiction is almost always discussed in reference to templars, particularly since it seems that it doesn't take much exposure to lyrium to create said addiction, if I recall.  I've always assumed that there was something about being a mage that gave such individuals some kind of inherent immunity to refined lyrium. 

Raw lyrium is more or less fatal to everyone, templar, mage, or otherwise.  Even dwarves don't need to handle the raw stuff without protective gear. 

I have just 1 word for you. ENCHANTMENT!!!

[Torax]

Pretty sure a Lyrium-Induced mutation is what spawned Ryan Reynalds' acting career. Just sayin.

[LobselVith8]

Silfren wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Both scenes are the romance scenes between Hawke and Merrill, replaced with pure unadulterated evil.

Not both.  The top one is Anders' romance scene.

The top scene is exactly like the Merrill romance scene, including Hawke/Orsino holding Merrill/Meredith's chin, and being lead to the bed in the following scene. You're telling me the developers have two romance scenes that are identical? If it wasn't for so much being recycled in this game, I'd actually be surprised.

[TEWR]

Recycling is good for the environment!

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The top scene is exactly like the Merrill romance scene, including Hawke/Orsino holding Merrill/Meredith's chin, and being lead to the bed in the following scene. You're telling me the developers have two romance scenes that are identical? If it wasn't for so much being recycled in this game, I'd actually be surprised.

Everyone in Thedas learns how to do the romance moves from The Bald and the Beautiful, the longest running (and the only) soap opera shown in local eluvians.

(where do you think Orsino picked up the idea for his haircut)

Modifié par tmp7704, 22 juin 2011 - 12:17 .

[Torax]

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The top scene is exactly like the Merrill romance scene, including Hawke/Orsino holding Merrill/Meredith's chin, and being lead to the bed in the following scene. You're telling me the developers have two romance scenes that are identical? If it wasn't for so much being recycled in this game, I'd actually be surprised.

Everyone in Thedas learns how to do the romance moves from The Bald and the Beautiful, the longest running (and the only) soap opera shown in local eluvians.

(where do you think Orsino picked up the idea for his haircut)

My Eluvian gets nothing but static. I called the local Dalish Pariah but apparently they're backed up, something about needing approval for more tools...