1008 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

Torax wrote...

My Eluvian gets nothing but static. I called the local Dalish Pariah but apparently they're backed up, something about needing approval for more tools...

I'm sure the local friendly pride demon will be able to lend a hand with that. Perhaps the eluvian just needs a bit of blood magic to get working again.

[Torax]

tmp7704 wrote...

Torax wrote...

My Eluvian gets nothing but static. I called the local Dalish Pariah but apparently they're backed up, something about needing approval for more tools...

I'm sure the local friendly pride demon will be able to lend a hand with that. Perhaps the eluvian just needs a bit of blood magic to get working again.

I don't work with pride demons anymore. For starters they will steal beers out of your fridge when you aren't looking and the roids they take makes their backs all pimply. If you want fine craftsmen ship it's the Desire Demons. They're really good with their hands

[dragonflight288]

Who sacrificed themselves in reality. Committed suicide by Hawke and company by their own choice, despite the diplomatic option and telling them their duty. Stupid shems.

[Perles75]

All DA2 is based on the risk of generalizations.
Meredith (and for a good part of the game all the Templars) sees mages as dangerous beings that will inevitably turn into abominations; Orsino and the circle mages consider all Templars tyrants; the Arishok fails to see the complexity of the Kirkwall civilisation and considers the whole city a breeding ground of chaos and corruption; the Viscount distrusts everything of the Qunari. Even Elthina, in her pursuit of taking no sides and treating all equally, puts everyone in the same basket and does not recognize the wrongdoings of the individual groups.

The only group that tries a (albeit twisted) form of reconciliation at least between mages and tempars goes well into the wrong way, as the "Best served cold" quest demonstrates.

Thus I don't think that the developers wanted to push us to take sides with the Templars, because every side is wrong.

[DreamerM]

Ya know, the more I think about the choice facing Hawke at the end of DA:2, the more I think the most logical choice you could possibly make is to kill everyone.

It'd be a mercy. Everybody's so incredibly miserable. Would Orsino have still gone Blood Mage Cuthulu-style monster if Meredith hadn't pushed him so far? Maybe. I don't think his facination with necromancy depended on Meredith's meanieness. But we'll never know for sure, will we Meredith?

Plus everybody's getting on my nerves. The Templars are raping and torturing people with no way to fight back. The Mages are going nuts and doing unspeakable things with bloods and bones and bodies that don't belong to them. If my annoyance could be fatal, everybody in the Gallows would be dead by now and we'll do a better job keeping out the Crazies next time...

[MichaelFinnegan]

Silfren wrote...

Ah, okay, I recall that codex now, but it still strikes me as odd that the game seems to focus on templars almost to the exclusion of mages.  Mages may not be systematically addicted to the substance as a dliberate means of control by the Chantry, but given lyrium's obvious use as a mana enhancer/replacement, you'd think the subject of addiction would be just as appropriate to mages.

I think the game is depicting circumstances accurately. Outside battles or otherwise exceptional circumstances, the Chantry wouldn't want want mages to get hold of lyrium. After all, they don't want mages to become an even bigger threat to them.

Especially apostates who don't use blood magic.  I've always just found it odd that the question of addiction is almost always discussed in reference to templars, particularly since it seems that it doesn't take much exposure to lyrium to create said addiction, if I recall.

One would expect that by restricting the supply of processed lyrium outside the Chantry, a sort of black market for it should have emerged. But it appears as if it hasn't. So, where will apostates get the lyrium from? The dwarves directly? I don't remember anything in the game that suggests that to be happening.

I would have to conclude that mages, in general, aren't addicted simply because they don't get to use lyrium so much, except under extraordinary circumstances. Blood magic is a much cheaper and accessible alternative.

And I don't know how much lyrium a person should consume to make him/her addicted. But I'm willing to go with the codex for now and say that it is a gradual phenomenon.

I've always assumed that there was something about being a mage that gave such individuals some kind of inherent immunity to refined lyrium.

That would not follow, I think. Dwarves are able to handle lyrium better than any race. Tranquil are also able to handle lyrium better (or simply more) - for doing enchantments - than any others besides dwarves. Templars who use lyrium become addled with it. Mages, as we know, are affected the worst by it. Looking at all this, it follows that one who is least connected with the Fade is affected less adversely by lyrium.

Also, this: http://social.biowar...383900/4#385109

Raw lyrium is more or less fatal to everyone, templar, mage, or otherwise.  Even dwarves don't need to handle the raw stuff without protective gear.

As the codex on lyrium states, raw (more potent) lyrium outright kills a mage - others are affected to variying degrees, but not just as much.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Again, a mage only needs lyrium if his own power is insufficient. What kind of magic could an apostate possibly need to cast, in which he would need lyrium? And what would keep him from simply using blood magic instead?

It seems likely that whatever kind of magic an apostate would need to cast, which requires more power than he possess, that he would simply turn to blood magic.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Add to that the idea of a mage who would be unable to discern between real/imagination and present/past and are horribly mutated, and you get the picture of why the Circles try to avoid having their mages grow an addiction to lyrium.

I do wonder what a Lyrium-induced mutation looks like. Crocodile skin? Tentacles? Extra eyeballs? Blue glowy effects like Fenris? Or maybe a giant, warty nose and a tumor in the shape of a broomstick between the legs that allows mages to fly?

That would be pretty neat.

The codex on lyrium goes on to say this:
"Mages have additionally been known to suffer physical mutation: The magister lords of the Tevinter Imperium were widely reputed to have been so affected by their years of lyrium use that they could not be recognized by their own kin, nor even as creatures that had once been human."

Hmm. Something like a darkspawn perhaps? To breach the Veil to enter the Fade physically, it is said that a vast quantity of lyrium (a third or half of the quantity in all of Thedas) was used by the magisters (I forget where I read that). I think there is more to becoming a darkspawn, but, just perhaps there is a connection somewhere...

[maxernst]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

One would expect that by restricting the supply of processed lyrium outside the Chantry, a sort of black market for it should have emerged. But it appears as if it hasn't. So, where will apostates get the lyrium from? The dwarves directly? I don't remember anything in the game that suggests that to be happening.



 

Well, there is the quest where you can buy lyrium in Dust Town and take it to that mage in the Circle Tower, so I think we can conclude there's at least some direct trade between the dwarves and other interested buyers.

Modifié par maxernst, 22 juin 2011 - 04:51 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Again, a mage only needs lyrium if his own power is insufficient. What kind of magic could an apostate possibly need to cast, in which he would need lyrium? And what would keep him from simply using blood magic instead?

It seems likely that whatever kind of magic an apostate would need to cast, which requires more power than he possess, that he would simply turn to blood magic.

I don't look at it as a question of choice because there doesn't appear to be any. But, yes, I think you're right, about them turning to blood magic. It is definitely more accessible.

[MichaelFinnegan]

maxernst wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

One would expect that by restricting the supply of processed lyrium outside the Chantry, a sort of black market for it should have emerged. But it appears as if it hasn't. So, where will apostates get the lyrium from? The dwarves directly? I don't remember anything in the game that suggests that to be happening.
 

Well, there is the quest where you can buy lyrium in Dust Town and take it to that mage in the Circle Tower, so I think we can conclude there's at least some direct trade between the dwarves and other interested buyers.

Yes, perhaps. In DAO, I recall some merchants had lyrium to sell. I wonder though, how much of it should be interpreted as being part of the story, and not being simply a "game mechanic."

To me, this (again from the codex on Lyrium) makes more sense; unless this somehow changed going from DAO to DA2:
"The dwarves sell very little of the processed mineral to the surface, giving the greater portion of what they mine to their own smiths, who use it in the forging of all truly superior dwarven weapons and armor. What processed lyrium is sold on the surface goes only to the Chantry, who strictly control the supply. From the Chantry, it is dispensed both to the templars, who make use of it in tracking and fighting maleficarum, and to the Circle."

[EmperorSahlertz]

There are lyrium smugglers without a doubt, we encounter them in both games. So there is some sort of black market for the lyrium trade. Who they sell it to, is unknown though, but probably anyone capable of paying.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 22 juin 2011 - 05:27 .

[LobselVith8]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Wrong.  "The mages" didn't end up right back where they started.  The magisters of the Tevinter Imperium did.  Mage =/= Tevinter Magister.  What you're not bringing into the equation is that Tevinter was a place where slavery and magocracy were already a part of the cultural and socio-political framework.  Mages elsewhere in Thedas don't have that as a cultural socio-political foundation, and that makes a difference.  Most mages in Thedas have been raised within a system where for a thousand years the tradition has been that Andraste despises slavery and magical domination, and the vast majority of mages, like the rest of Thedas, has grown up with this belief internalized.  Just like any other population, as much as you are going to have your rogue elements who have no issue with murder, thieving, rape, and various other anti-social behaviors, they are nevertheless going to be a very small percentage of the total population.  A well trained templar force would suffice for keeping those elements from Destroying The World As We Know It.

This. Thank you. The idea that free mages will immediately turn into magisters because TEVINTER has always boggled me for this exact reason.

The Chasind Wilders, the Avvar tribes, the Dalish clans, the kingdom of Rivani, and the Grey Warden have free mages among them, so I never understood the complaint that free mages automatically mean the rise of another Imperium, considering that the alternative societies of the Andrastian nations have free mages who aren't trying to emulate the ancient Tevinter Imperium, and even the order of Grey Wardens has mages among them who aren't controlled by the Chantry or the Order of Templars. Even the Hero of Ferelden from the Magi Origin can exemplify the best that a free mage can accomplish.

[MichaelFinnegan]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There are lyrium smugglers without a doubt, we encounter them in both games. So there is some sort of black market for the lyrium trade. Who they sell it to, is unknown though, but probably anyone capable of paying.

Ah, yes. Now I remember. I read the earlier post as Dark Town, thinking it was perhaps in DA2 and something I missed. My mistake. Yes, there apparently is a black market for it.

[In Exile]

Silfren wrote...
And the same would go for rogue mages.  There is no reason whatsoever to believe a substantial population of mages living free would turn criminal.  In any population, the percentage of violent criminals is always a very small portion of the overall population.  We don't lock up whole droves of people to account for the potential actions of a tiny minority.

The counter-argument (and the lore and gameplay is so inconsistent on this IMO I don't know how to judge it) is that mages, the weak and innocent ones, wouldn't be able to resist demons that prey on them and so would become abominations, with the abominations being the things that wreak havoc.

But this is just a freedom of mobility issue. As I said: having Circles with permits for travel (based on, essentially, a mages capacity to protect themselves from posession) solves the issue.

The real problem is the balance of power between mages and non-mages. Socialism but with magic instead of wealth, basically.

[In Exile]

Silfren wrote...

This is purely subjective.  I don't personally think there's anything whatsoever wrong with using one's own blood.  That's not a "neutral" case--a person has an innate right to use their own body however they see fit.  There's nothing "neutral" about it at all from the standpoint of being used.

It's not a neutral case. It's only a neutral case if you favour a moral system that says that people are entitled to do whatever they wish with their own body, and ignore social fallout from individuals behaviour. This isn't at all the only way to construct the problem, and saying that your own moral system is the 'right' one isn't any less subjective.

/quote]Nor do I see anything "always thorny" about consent.  If a person is making a free and informed choice, there's nothing thorny about it. Yes, I'm aware that there are going to be times when the question of consent is problematic, but it's hardly an issue that is always problematic.  It's not as though people who are capable of free and informed consent are rare.

As a law student, hearing 'if a person makes a free and informed choice' as if it was easy to determine makes me cry tears of blood.

Just look at consent to sexual actvity. It's a nightmare. A minefield. A horror.

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Again, a mage only needs lyrium if his own power is insufficient. What kind of magic could an apostate possibly need to cast, in which he would need lyrium? And what would keep him from simply using blood magic instead?

It seems likely that whatever kind of magic an apostate would need to cast, which requires more power than he possess, that he would simply turn to blood magic.

Except given that Andrastianism teaches that blood magic is evil.  There are bound to be plenty of mages who would simply never turn to blood magic out of that belief.  

As to your question, what about Grey Warden mages?  They have an obvious need for lyrium, and for all that the Wardens don't forbid blood magic, I doubt that all their mages use it, for the above stated reason.

[MichaelFinnegan]

In Exile wrote...

Silfren wrote...
And the same would go for rogue mages.  There is no reason whatsoever to believe a substantial population of mages living free would turn criminal.  In any population, the percentage of violent criminals is always a very small portion of the overall population.  We don't lock up whole droves of people to account for the potential actions of a tiny minority.

The counter-argument (and the lore and gameplay is so inconsistent on this IMO I don't know how to judge it) is that mages, the weak and innocent ones, wouldn't be able to resist demons that prey on them and so would become abominations, with the abominations being the things that wreak havoc.

Certainly, that would be a problem, I'd think. One ought not to hide from the possiblity of that.

If I may suggest, I think we need go back and look at what started this line of argument. The incident took place at the Circle of Nevarra, where an abomination was let loose and which killed all the mages and templars at the Circle; and it roamed around for a year before it was killed, by which time it had killed about 70 people. Certainly, a catastropic event. I had responded to this simply by noting that this event is what caused the Right of Annulment to come to exist. The thing is, this so-called solution has been used at a rate of once every 41 years, over the last 700 years. Now, is that the best possible solution that one could come up with, and not to mention maintain for the next 700 years? Events of DAO and DA2 lead me to imagine how easily one could jump to such a solution - nay, a "right."

But this is just a freedom of mobility issue.

But is it, really? To me the real issue is that demonic possession, having existed perhaps for a thousand years or more, has seemingly not been even properly investigated. We hardly seem to know anything about its mechanics, and much less about how to counter it. Has it even been investigated that a possession itself can be cured? The so-called scientific approach to the problem seems to be generally missing.

As I said: having Circles with permits for travel (based on, essentially, a mages capacity to protect themselves from posession) solves the issue.

A few issues with this come to mind. First, how does one know for instance that a person is possessed? Second, even if it can somehow be certified that a mage is free of any influence of demons, how do we know that this is always going to be the case, temptations being of the fickle nature that they are? And last but not the least, one would have to assume that the system will somehow work reliably. I can certainly imagine how it could be set up for abusing, in one way or the other.

The real problem is the balance of power between mages and non-mages. Socialism but with magic instead of wealth, basically.

The real issue for me, though, is actually freedom, or the lack of it. Fear of harm, fear of persecution, etc. will be ever present. No amount of rebalancing of power or whatnot will prevent that. To me the absence of a balance of power is just a symptom of the actual problem - the absence of essential freedom. Whatever system comes to replace the supposedly corrupt ones of the present, ought to hold up that ideal of freedom of the individual. Otherwise, I'm afraid it is not going to be worth it in the end.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Indeed. And then, given the limited amount of lyrium they can obtain (though I imagine the Chantry would be willing to sell some lyrium to the Grey Wardens), most apostates simply don't cast some of the more highpower spells, and I can't imagine why they would cast such a spell anyway.

[EmperorSahlertz]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Silfren wrote...
And the same would go for rogue mages.  There is no reason whatsoever to believe a substantial population of mages living free would turn criminal.  In any population, the percentage of violent criminals is always a very small portion of the overall population.  We don't lock up whole droves of people to account for the potential actions of a tiny minority.

The counter-argument (and the lore and gameplay is so inconsistent on this IMO I don't know how to judge it) is that mages, the weak and innocent ones, wouldn't be able to resist demons that prey on them and so would become abominations, with the abominations being the things that wreak havoc.

Certainly, that would be a problem, I'd think. One ought not to hide from the possiblity of that.

If I may suggest, I think we need go back and look at what started this line of argument. The incident took place at the Circle of Nevarra, where an abomination was let loose and which killed all the mages and templars at the Circle; and it roamed around for a year before it was killed, by which time it had killed about 70 people. Certainly, a catastropic event. I had responded to this simply by noting that this event is what caused the Right of Annulment to come to exist. The thing is, this so-called solution has been used at a rate of once every 41 years, over the last 700 years. Now, is that the best possible solution that one could come up with, and not to mention maintain for the next 700 years? Events of DAO and DA2 lead me to imagine how easily one could jump to such a solution - nay, a "right."

Actually what lead to the Right's introduction, wasn't the fact that the Abomination killed 70 people, it was the fact that a group of mages had killed several Templars, in retaliation of the execution of a maleficar. The Knight-Commander was unable to track down the culprits, and was powerless to stop them from later summoning a demon, which killed the first wave of Templars trying to destroy it, and later possessed one of its summoners, after which it escaped.
That is what lead to the inception of the Right, not the simple fact that an Abomination is dangerous, but the fact that sometimes, a Circle is simply irredeemable.

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

But this is just a freedom of mobility issue.

But is it, really? To me the real issue is that demonic possession, having existed perhaps for a thousand years or more, has seemingly not been even properly investigated. We hardly seem to know anything about its mechanics, and much less about how to counter it. Has it even been investigated that a possession itself can be cured? The so-called scientific approach to the problem seems to be generally missing.

How do you properly investigate demonic possession? They know what is neccesary. That it is dangerous, and hardly ever brings anything good with it. They know that a demon can possess a mage by either force or coercion, and that it can be countered. If the demon is possessing a willing host it can be "cured" while if a demon forces possession, it apparently destroys the "soul" of the host in the process, or some such.
Simply put, they know enough about it.

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

As I said: having Circles with permits for travel (based on, essentially, a mages capacity to protect themselves from posession) solves the issue.

A few issues with this come to mind. First, how does one know for instance that a person is possessed? Second, even if it can somehow be certified that a mage is free of any influence of demons, how do we know that this is always going to be the case, temptations being of the fickle nature that they are? And last but not the least, one would have to assume that the system will somehow work reliably. I can certainly imagine how it could be set up for abusing, in one way or the other.

You can't be sure. Ever. That is the crux of the matter. Besides, the Circle system already had a system which allowed trusted mages to leave the tower, for a certain amount of time at least.
Another problem would be for the Templars to first realize that the mage who went into the assinthemiddleofnowhere had failed to report in, then they needed to go track him down, then they would ahve to acertain if he was simply delayed or it was of a more sinister nature, and then tehy would have to act accordingly. A logistical nightmare, and certainly not a fast enough response-time which is needed in this matter.

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

The real problem is the balance of power between mages and non-mages. Socialism but with magic instead of wealth, basically.

The real issue for me, though, is actually freedom, or the lack of it. Fear of harm, fear of persecution, etc. will be ever present. No amount of rebalancing of power or whatnot will prevent that. To me the absence of a balance of power is just a symptom of the actual problem - the absence of essential freedom. Whatever system comes to replace the supposedly corrupt ones of the present, ought to hold up that ideal of freedom of the individual. Otherwise, I'm afraid it is not going to be worth it in the end.

The issue seems to be that the popular Templar view of the mages were as an enemy, and vice versa. Instead they should be taught to look at eachother in apositive light, Templars as guardians, and amges as a custodian's charge.

[TEWR]

Wilhelm was the only one that we know of who was doing active research into demonic possession, and by the sound of some of his entries he was making progress. Or so he thought. Whether he actually did is unknown, but he recognized that study needed to be done.


13 Pluitanis: The interrogation of the demon is going well, and is rather fascinating--provided that what it is saying is true. I have sent all my research so far to First Enchanter Arden, and while he is concerned about my safety he does not think there is a reason to stop just yet. All I hope is that the templars do not discover what I am doing. How will we ever find another way to deal with demonic possession if the Chantry does not let us research it?


20 Eluviesta: Young Matthias nearly wandered down here again today, and this time I forgot to leave the barrier up. I believe I will key the defenses to ignore anyone of my blood. I would rather have the boy stumble into the laboratory than have him killed by my forgetfulness. Poor lad, all he wants is to know why his father spends so much time beneath the tower. I will spend more time with him soon, I swear it.


28 Eluviesta: Shale is acting strangely. I wonder if I should discontinue my experiments upon it? I am so near a breakthrough, I am certain! Ahhh, perhaps it is best if I focus on the demon.


2 Matrinalis: The demon almost managed to get away again. Tricky. I shall have to be more careful. Young Eamon sent a letter asking me to return to Redcliffe. I shall have to consider it. Soon.


11 Matrinalis: Could it be? What an intriguing discovery, especially considering that the demon was attempting to keep me from it at all costs. Or did it lead me to that information by seeming to deny it from me? I must discover the truth.


19 Umbralia: I think it is time to dismiss this demon. It is too dangerous for me to continue holding it, and I cannot discount the possibility that it is having some influence over the golem. Or is it my experiments? I will try to deactivate Shale for the time being and then deal with the demon once and for all. Let it end here.

(There are no further entries.)


--From the journal of Enchanter Wilhelm Sulzbacher.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 juin 2011 - 10:06 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

If anything Wilhelm simply proves how dangerous research into demon possession is.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 22 juin 2011 - 10:09 .

[TEWR]

How so? The demon possessed (or transformed into. I'm not sure) a cat, was trapped for 30 years, and could only possess a child (or Matthias IIRC) if the Warden let her.


Wilhelm kept it trapped for 30 years and it was too stupid to figure out a simple puzzle. I can't see how it proves anything

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 juin 2011 - 10:14 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well, it is speculation which caused Wilhlem's death, but I'm thinking the demon played a part in it. I also think it was playing upon his desires to learn, and was setting him on a path it had planned in every detail.

And don't mix the gameplay of the puzzle with the lore. Can you imagine the roar of rage from the forums if any game ever actually implemented the "super advanced safety measures of the facility"? I mean, how many max security complexes havn't us gamers broken into with relative ease, throughout games?