1008 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

I don't think it was playing on his desires at all. Had it been playing on his desires, I don't think he would've realized how dangerous it actually was.

[Sajuro]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

How so? The demon possessed (or transformed into. I'm not sure) a cat, was trapped for 30 years, and could only possess a child (or Matthias IIRC) if the Warden let her.


Wilhelm kept it trapped for 30 years and it was too stupid to figure out a simple puzzle. I can't see how it proves anything

I was under the impression that there was some magic to keep the demon from solving the puzzle or required appendages that cats do not have, and that the little girl was a stupid sh!t.

[maxernst]

Silfren wrote...

maxernst wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I think the fact that Tevinter is not a distant memory speaks to the fact that abominations and blood mages don't spell the end of civilization as we know it.  If mages living free was the apocalyptic calamity the (White) Chantry would have us believe, then it stands to reason that Tevinter would be a smoking ruin, since not only are mages free, but in charge of the place.  

Yes, that is true. I think the main issue is that one injustice can't be an answer to another. Even if the Imperium caused all that suffering a long time ago, it in no way excuses the shackling of the mages we see now in other parts of Thedas.

Except that as soon as the mages were let free, they wound up right back where they started.
Tevinter may not be a smoking ruin, but huge numbers of people are kept in much worse conditions than the mages in the rest of Thedas.  Being afraid that the mages will take over and enslave everybody else is not an irrational fear.  Without a system in place designed to prevent it from happening, I think eventually the mages will always take over.  And it will always be the blood mages who take control, because they have that extra power source, as well as the ability to mind control others, whereas other mages risk becoming addicted to lyrium if they try and go beyond their natural mana supply.  To me, mages are like a group of people that posess a huge technological edge on their neighbors, except that their edge is innate and can't be reverse-engineered or bought.  And if our history is any indication, the fate of the technological have nots has not been a pretty one, even in cases where they hugely outnumbered the more advanced group, as in the case of Cortez and Pizarro in Latin America.  The Tevinter Imperium is a very plausible and logical outcome of having a minority with extraordinary superhuman abilities. 

The existence of mind-control magic and potentially evil blood mages is an argument for having an independent police force set up to combat rogues.  That doesn't have to mean locking the mages away from the populace in Circles, however.  There is no logical reason whatsoever for the Chantry to have a monopoly on mage-hunters--at least not from that standpoint. 

Oh, certainly the mage hunters could be in control of the state.  And trained mages who have proven themselves may very well be okay in society--and that appears to be how the Circle in Ferelden operates.  All Wynne had to do to join the Warden was ask the First Enchanter for permission.  Presumably that was how the mage that was searching for rare herbs in DA:A was out there--she was obviously not an apostate.  But some some sort of external control is required, and I see no evidence that Anders was willing to accept that.  Being torn from one's family is inevitable if you happen to be born in small village (as most people probably are), because mages need to be trained to be safe.  Not to mention the fact that I don't see how non-mage parents would cope with a child with potentially lethal temper tantrums.

In the societies where mages are supposedly "free" cited by people, I have a strong suspicion that mages occupy a distinct social caste (shaman/seer/keeper etc).  Because of strong cultural tradtions, conditioning for their role since childhood, and quite probably a role that gives them a high social status and quality material life, the vast majority of mages in these societies are probably content with their role, and willing to put down those that aren't.  But social controls are far easier to exert in highly traditional societies than in a place like Kirkwall or even Ferelden, and you can't simply import social models derived from other societies in a piecemeal fashion.  I still say that in a more competitive society, like Kirkwall appears to be, free mages will always wind up on top, and a minority which is innately different from the rest of the population will ultimately treat the rest of the population brutally.  Slavery may be abhorrent according to the Andrastean religion, but the notion that slavery makes the Tevinter Imperium SO different that freeing the Circles from chantry oversight (which is still not free enough for Anders' taste) will perfectly fine elsewhere is misguided.  And what is slavery anyway?  According to what we heard in DA:O, the chevaliers in Orlais enjoy the right to rape their peasants.  I wouldn't be surprised if Orlesian serfs are legally bound to the land and effectively bought and sold with it.  How different is that from slavery, really?

Modifié par maxernst, 23 juin 2011 - 07:11 .

[LobselVith8]

maxernst wrote...

Oh, certainly the mage hunters could be in control of the state.  And trained mages who have proven themselves may very well be okay in society--and that appears to be how the Circle in Ferelden operates.  All Wynne had to do to join the Warden was ask the First Enchanter for permission.  Presumably that was how the mage that was searching for rare herbs in DA:A was out there--she was obviously not an apostate. 

Wynne is a Senior Enchanter, and Ines could be one as well; regardless, Ines was on an important mission to find a herb that is said to grow in Blighted soil, which is very important considering that Ferelden dealt with the Fifth Blight. It doesn't seem to be the case that mages can simply leave the Circle Tower if they ask for permission.

maxernst wrote...

But some some sort of external control is required, and I see no evidence that Anders was willing to accept that.  Being torn from one's family is inevitable if you happen to be born in small village (as most people probably are), because mages need to be trained to be safe.  Not to mention the fact that I don't see how non-mage parents would cope with a child with potentially lethal temper tantrums.

I think Anders is an example that Circle mages can't simply leave by asking for permission, since Wynne and Ines are high ranking members of the Circle of Magi, and their word appears to carry some weight (considering that they were able to argue the debate in their favor at the meeting in Cumberland).

maxernst wrote...

In the societies where mages are supposedly "free" cited by people, I have a strong suspicion that mages occupy a distinct social caste (shaman/seer/keeper etc). 

They are cited as having "free" mages because David Gaider acknowledged that these societies have mages who aren't controlled.

maxernst wrote...

Slavery may be abhorrent according to the Andrastean religion, but the notion that slavery makes the Tevinter Imperium SO different that freeing the Circles from chantry oversight (which is still not free enough for Anders' taste) will perfectly fine elsewhere is misguided. 

Anders seems content with the idea of mages having freedom from the Chantry - he even accepts the idea of being imprisoned by Aveline in a city-state that treats everyone fairly, and speaks to Sebastian about mages being treated exactly the same as non-mages. As for slavery, some view what the Andrastians do to the mages as slavery.  Some of the characters in Dragon Age 2 view the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery - Anders calls it that, Fenris seems to regard it as such since he never counters the statement and is persuaded to side with a pro-mage Hawke who calls it slavery, Sebastian never denies that it's slavery the multiple times Anders discusses the issue with him, Idunna says the mages of the Chantry controlled Circles serve,  and some codex entries reference mages not wanting to be servants of the Chantry or controlled by the templars.

[TEWR]

Wynne is a Senior Enchanter, and Ines could be one as well; regardless, Ines was on an important mission to find a herb that is said to grow in Blighted soil, which is very important considering that Ferelden dealt with the Fifth Blight. It doesn't seem to be the case that mages can simply leave the Circle Tower if they ask for permission.

The Northern Prickleweed grows in rocky soil, not Blighted. She doesn't say Blighted anywhere in that quest.

[maxernst]

LobselVith8 wrote...

maxernst wrote...

But some some sort of external control is required, and I see no evidence that Anders was willing to accept that.  Being torn from one's family is inevitable if you happen to be born in small village (as most people probably are), because mages need to be trained to be safe.  Not to mention the fact that I don't see how non-mage parents would cope with a child with potentially lethal temper tantrums.

I think Anders is an example that Circle mages can't simply leave by asking for permission, since Wynne and Ines are high ranking members of the Circle of Magi, and their word appears to carry some weight (considering that they were able to argue the debate in their favor at the meeting in Cumberland).

maxernst wrote...

 

Anders seems content with the idea of mages having freedom from the Chantry - he even accepts the idea of being imprisoned by Aveline in a city-state that treats everyone fairly, and speaks to Sebastian about mages being treated exactly the same as non-mages. A.

They may not be permitted to leave for just any reason, but some are permitted to leave with supervision regardless.  And it would seem to me that Anders not being permitted to leave is justified by his behavior.

A city state that treats everyone fairly?  And where in Thedas could such a thing be found?  Are the elves treated fairly?  How about the Fereldens?  The ideas of the Enlightenment have not caught on in Thedas yet.  Besides, Aveline's guards can't treat mage criminals like everybody else.  They'd be massacred.

Modifié par maxernst, 23 juin 2011 - 08:02 .

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Wynne is a Senior Enchanter, and Ines could be one as well; regardless, Ines was on an important mission to find a herb that is said to grow in Blighted soil, which is very important considering that Ferelden dealt with the Fifth Blight. It doesn't seem to be the case that mages can simply leave the Circle Tower if they ask for permission.

The Northern Prickleweed grows in rocky soil, not Blighted. She doesn't say Blighted anywhere in that quest.

You're mistaken. Ines tells The Warden to look for the Northern Prickleweed on rocky soil, but she makes it clear that finding the plant is so important because it's rumored that it can grow in Blighted land. That's the reason she gives for not dropping everything to go to the meeting in Cumberland if The Warden challenges her reason for remaining in Amaranthine.

maxernst wrote...

They may not be permitted to leave for just any reason, but some are permitted to leave with supervision regardless.  And it would seem to me that Anders not being permitted to leave is justified by his behavior.

Or his behavior is justified by the fact that Circle mages aren't permitted to leave, except under exceptional circumstances (like finding a plant that can grow in Blighted soil in the aftermath of the Fifth Blight).

maxernst wrote...

A city state that treats everyone fairly?  And where in Thedas could such a thing be found?  Are the elves treated fairly?  How about the Fereldens?  The ideas of the Enlightenment have not caught on in Thedas yet.  Besides, Aveline's guards can't treat mage criminals like everybody else.  They'd be massacred.

Aveline makes it clear she wants to arrest Anders if he's spared - if you take issue with that, don't blame me for her intentions. Also, I addressed that it's what Anders wants - for mages to be treated fairly.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 23 juin 2011 - 09:01 .

[Silfren]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There are lyrium smugglers without a doubt, we encounter them in both games. So there is some sort of black market for the lyrium trade. Who they sell it to, is unknown though, but probably anyone capable of paying.

Ah, yes. Now I remember. I read the earlier post as Dark Town, thinking it was perhaps in DA2 and something I missed. My mistake. Yes, there apparently is a black market for it.

I have no doubt there's a black market for lyrium.  It surprises me that that should even be a matter of debate.  Any time you a tight lockdown with one organization trying to monopolize a resource, a black market is inevitable. 

[Torax]

Lyrium is only a black market cause the Chantry wants it to be that way. The dwarves still profit either way. There are smiths outside of Orzimmar that would wish to get their hands on it. Since part of the reason that the Chantry controls it is the profit from selling enchanted items almost exclusively. This helps fund the costs of Templars and everything else required to maintain a circle. That and it's easily argued that having the Templars use the lyrium is a sort of control though not wise in the long run in my opinion. But I digress.

In regards to the slavery aspect. Just like everything else in regards to the Circle. The mages are not all in agreement. Some see magic and demons as a threat to themselves and others just like normal people outside of the Circle. People be it elves or humans will not always be in agreement. Part of the reason they made things like the united states constitution was to protect the citizens' freedom of choice (If you want to argue anything political in present day, leave it for another thread). The example I used was only used to give a point of view of how we see things in our World when it's not the case in Thedas (Or in other locations on Earth for that matter...)

One praying mage you run into in Origins hated her gift of magic. To a point the only peaceful resolution to her stress and melancholy is to point out that she could ask to be made tranquil. While characters like Anders or Jowan think that being made Tranquil is practically death? It's office she did not. Owain also wanted it done instead of risking a Harrowing and or death. Owain seemed to find it agreeable. Slavery or no is argued in a few aspects. There is no cookie cutter rule that even existed in the cases presented to us.

Jowan was going to be made Tranquil cause there were witnesses to his using blood magic. (This was true anyway). He just tried to skate clean of it until he was threatened with Death. Not death because he was a Blood Mage. This was more about the fact that he broke in to destroy his phylactery that truly drove Gregoir (One of the more reasonable Templars) to that order of death. But his being made Tranquil is more about mercy than slavery. Jowan would claim it's death. Anders would claim it is death. But I've already listed 2 examples of mages who wished to be made Tranquil.

The Tranquil Solution was wrong. But supposedly even Meredith was against it. Now if that actually went through? Then you can claim slavery. Otherwise it's just looking to make villains of the other side while ignoring the darkness which both sides exhibit. In the end no matter which way people try to spin it. There are dark hearts in Thedas to fuel either side. Filtering one's eyes to only see it from one point of view is just asking for arguments for sake of something to talk about but is still blinding one'self to the motivations which for either side could be for the right reasons.

[TEWR]

but did Kelli see her magic as a curse of her own volition or because she's been spoonfed that it is a curse? The Chantry preaches that magic is a curse

[Torax]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

but did Kelli see her magic as a curse of her own volition or because she's been spoonfed that it is a curse? The Chantry preaches that magic is a curse

The demons will call to mages in their dreams. Some may not have the will or the wish to have to face it. Owain asked to be made Tranquil because he didn't want to face the harrowing or be plagued by demons. This is the same thing Kelli seemed to be feeling. You want to see her as a pressured to think it's a curse? By whom? I doubt Irving would ever say such a thing. Gregoir didn't seem to be the sort to call it a curse. The Chantry didn't seem to imply magic is a curse. Meredith did. But that is one person not all. The Chantry claims that the Magisters brought their sin to the seat of the maker and then became the first darkspawn. This can be implied as magic is sinful but that in no way means it's a curse. What you are doing is applying it from the view of a villain you dislike not the general feeling the games have shown.

Modifié par Torax, 24 juin 2011 - 03:02 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Actually what lead to the Right's introduction, wasn't the fact that the Abomination killed 70 people, it was the fact that a group of mages had killed several Templars, in retaliation of the execution of a maleficar. The Knight-Commander was unable to track down the culprits, and was powerless to stop them from later summoning a demon, which killed the first wave of Templars trying to destroy it, and later possessed one of its summoners, after which it escaped.

Right. Thanks for the exposition. And I wasn't trying to point out that the abomination was the only cause for the introduction of the Right. It was also a reason.

There are other things I could debate about the above incident, but I'll let it pass. I just brought that up to highlight other things.

That is what lead to the inception of the Right, not the simple fact that an Abomination is dangerous, but the fact that sometimes, a Circle is simply irredeemable.

The only "fact" I see in the above is that someone, for better or worse, determines that the Circle has become irredeemable; and that someone has impunity to do so.

How do you properly investigate demonic possession? They know what is neccesary. That it is dangerous, and hardly ever brings anything good with it. They know that a demon can possess a mage by either force or coercion, and that it can be countered. If the demon is possessing a willing host it can be "cured" while if a demon forces possession, it apparently destroys the "soul" of the host in the process, or some such.
Simply put, they know enough about it.

They know enough about it, do they? Whoever these "they" are? Enough about it to do what, I wonder.

As far as I'm concerned, we know so little about the Fade and the creatures that inhabit it. We know little why most creatures, when they dream, enter the Fade - and why dwarves don't. We know so little about such things, and demonic possession is just a small part of it. Thedas to me resembes the Dark Ages of our own time on Earth, times driven mainly by dogmatic beliefs and not by reason.

You can't be sure. Ever. That is the crux of the matter. Besides, the Circle system already had a system which allowed trusted mages to leave the tower, for a certain amount of time at least.
Another problem would be for the Templars to first realize that the mage who went into the assinthemiddleofnowhere had failed to report in, then they needed to go track him down, then they would ahve to acertain if he was simply delayed or it was of a more sinister nature, and then tehy would have to act accordingly. A logistical nightmare, and certainly not a fast enough response-time which is needed in this matter.

My point was to note that having "permits" doesn't appear to be a viable solution. One must therefore look elsewhere.

The issue seems to be that the popular Templar view of the mages were as an enemy, and vice versa. Instead they should be taught to look at eachother in apositive light, Templars as guardians, and amges as a custodian's charge.

As a small step up, perhaps? The thing is people don't neatly fit into roles of "mages" and "templars" as you define above. They have their own independent selves, and being mages/templars is just a part of it, however large or small. So, based on that aspect alone, hearding them like cattle into this and that group, and denying them freedom, never really works in practice.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Silfren wrote...

I have no doubt there's a black market for lyrium.  It surprises me that that should even be a matter of debate.  Any time you a tight lockdown with one organization trying to monopolize a resource, a black market is inevitable.

You're right. Although I had thought a black market for lyrium would be inevitable, I was merely suprised that there wasn't anything in-game to suggest that. I was wrong, however, because the lyrium smuggler quest in Dust Town in Orzammar shows that it exists. Anyway, I had already factored in the inevitability of such a black market during my original reference to it by stating that blood magic is both accessible and "cheaper."

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

The demons will call to mages in their dreams. Some may not have the will or the wish to have to face it. Owain asked to be made Tranquil because he didn't want to face the harrowing or be plagued by demons. This is the same thing Kelli seemed to be feeling. You want to see her as a pressured to think it's a curse? By whom? I doubt Irving would ever say such a thing. Gregoir didn't seem to be the sort to call it a curse. The Chantry didn't seem to imply magic is a curse. Meredith did. But that is one person not all. The Chantry claims that the Magisters brought their sin to the seat of the maker and then became the first darkspawn. This can be implied as magic is sinful but that in no way means it's a curse. What you are doing is applying it from the view of a villain you dislike not the general feeling the games have shown.

Knight-Commander Greagoir calls it a curse in the opening of the Magi Origin. Keili refers to it as a curse. Anders says that it's taught that mages are cursed. Bethany calls it a curse. Knight-Commander Meredith calls it a curse. It seems to be part of the docturine of the Chantry of Andraste to preach that magic is a curse.

[TEWR]

I knew more than Gregoir, Kelli, and Meredith called it a curse! Couldn't remember who else though

[EmperorSahlertz]

Greagoir also calls it a gift... His worind is somewhat like "The magic you bear is a gift, but it is also a curse", then he says something about demons and the Fade and the threat they pose to mages.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 24 juin 2011 - 02:00 .

[Torax]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Greagoir also calls it a gift... His worind is somewhat like "The magic you bear is a gift, but it is also a curse", then he says something about demons and the Fade and the threat they pose to mages.

The part that some will just not admitt because it doesn't support their cause is that Demons are a constant threat to any mage and some do not wish to have to battle them for their entire life times. Constantly having a test of wills against a creature that selfishly wants to possess you for their own enjoyment. This is what would have some like Kelli calling it a curse. Magic is a tool that has great benefits and also has the potential for great destruction. Not just the destruction of others but also of oneself if they can't even control it. Not everyone is the player character able to master a spell by just clicking a button. In lore it is more like "I only burned myself once yesterday."

Also keep in mind a character like KCG, his own words can be based more in how he is looking at magic when he says them. Even Fenris admitts magic has it's uses. This is why even the Qunari do not kill their Mages outright. But it's also a tool of destruction. Plus any words Greg would be using about magic after Jowan knocked him out is fueled by his being attacked by a blood mage. Just like when he starts to take action at you even if you were working under Irving's Orders. His ability to reason is pushed away and is more fueled by his want of death of a blood mage.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Torax wrote...

Lyrium is only a black market cause the Chantry wants it to be that way. The dwarves still profit either way. There are smiths outside of Orzimmar that would wish to get their hands on it. Since part of the reason that the Chantry controls it is the profit from selling enchanted items almost exclusively. This helps fund the costs of Templars and everything else required to maintain a circle. That and it's easily argued that having the Templars use the lyrium is a sort of control though not wise in the long run in my opinion. But I digress.

I think all of the above are true.

In regards to the slavery aspect. Just like everything else in regards to the Circle. The mages are not all in agreement. Some see magic and demons as a threat to themselves and others just like normal people outside of the Circle. People be it elves or humans will not always be in agreement. Part of the reason they made things like the united states constitution was to protect the citizens' freedom of choice (If you want to argue anything political in present day, leave it for another thread). The example I used was only used to give a point of view of how we see things in our World when it's not the case in Thedas (Or in other locations on Earth for that matter...)

But clearly people like Anders see freedom of mages as a necessity. It is not very far from our own notion of it. And it is in direct response to persecution. So, saying that no one yearns to be free in Thedas would not be entirely correct, in my opinion.

One praying mage you run into in Origins hated her gift of magic. To a point the only peaceful resolution to her stress and melancholy is to point out that she could ask to be made tranquil. While characters like Anders or Jowan think that being made Tranquil is practically death? It's office she did not. Owain also wanted it done instead of risking a Harrowing and or death. Owain seemed to find it agreeable. Slavery or no is argued in a few aspects. There is no cookie cutter rule that even existed in the cases presented to us.

If I see someone like Owain, I see a person who has accepted one of the few choices presented to him - the one which he finds the most agreeable, to be sure. Yes, perhaps he fears the Harrowing and of being possessed and sees becoming a tranquil as his only escape. But in the process he loses his sense of self, which he may wave off as a risk-to-benefit tradeoff.

The point is that this is how the system in fact is. It is inflexible, it allows no improvement, no expansion of the range of choices available to people like him. The problem to me is actually the status quo.

Jowan was going to be made Tranquil cause there were witnesses to his using blood magic. (This was true anyway). He just tried to skate clean of it until he was threatened with Death. Not death because he was a Blood Mage. This was more about the fact that he broke in to destroy his phylactery that truly drove Gregoir (One of the more reasonable Templars) to that order of death.

Still, I'd only say Gregoir is only a loyal and good "templar." To me it is all twisted; it is not as simple as saying that Jowan turned to blood magic or destroyed his phylactery and therefore he is deserving of death. Just because something is banned doesn't make it necessarily bad in my book.

If indeed Jowan turned to blood magic to cause harm to others, I'll accept that he is deserving of punishment. Indeed, one may look at the Connor incident and come to such a conclusion, so maybe he was deserving of it. But not just because he turned to blood magic or didn't wish to be tracked by templars.

But his being made Tranquil is more about mercy than slavery. Jowan would claim it's death. Anders would claim it is death. But I've already listed 2 examples of mages who wished to be made Tranquil.

Being made tranquil may not be slavery, and, heck, it may even appear to be the best of the deals for those who willingly accept it. However, let us not forget that it is only so within the context of what we see. The condition of the dwarves - retaining their emotions but yet being cut off from the Fade poses another possibility for people like Owain. I'm not suggesting that this is really possible - just that if one were allowed to investigate the matter, this could become reality.

If the story writers of DA universe tell me that this is not possible, then I'll agree with you completely; otherwise, I'll keep this open as a possibility.

The Tranquil Solution was wrong. But supposedly even Meredith was against it. Now if that actually went through? Then you can claim slavery. Otherwise it's just looking to make villains of the other side while ignoring the darkness which both sides exhibit. In the end no matter which way people try to spin it. There are dark hearts in Thedas to fuel either side. Filtering one's eyes to only see it from one point of view is just asking for arguments for sake of something to talk about but is still blinding one'self to the motivations which for either side could be for the right reasons.

That, in my opinion, is not what this is all about. The Tranquil problem is one which shows to me that it need not be looked in the limited way that you're suggesting - I think there is much more to it than meets the eye; more perhaps to be learnt from future DA games?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Dwarves aren't cut off from the Fade though. The best way to describe them would be "deafened to the Fade", whereas a Tranquil is effectively "cut off from the Fade". A Dwarf who leaves for the surface, will eventually (re)establish a connection to the Fade.

Jowan broke the law, wether or not you believe blood magic isn't evil doesn't matter. Jowan broke the law and should be punished accordingly.

[MichaelFinnegan]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Dwarves aren't cut off from the Fade though. The best way to describe them would be "deafened to the Fade", whereas a Tranquil is effectively "cut off from the Fade".

Yes, agreed. It is actually described as, dwarves don't go to the Fade when they dream, but they can be forced into the Fade.

A Dwarf who leaves for the surface, will eventually (re)establish a connection to the Fade.

And we know this how?

Jowan broke the law, wether or not you believe blood magic isn't evil doesn't matter. Jowan broke the law and should be punished accordingly.

Which is in fact what Gregoir also thought. That was my point.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Dwarves aren't cut off from the Fade though. The best way to describe them would be "deafened to the Fade", whereas a Tranquil is effectively "cut off from the Fade". A Dwarf who leaves for the surface, will eventually (re)establish a connection to the Fade.

Erm, it's true that Dwarves can be forced into the fade, but I don't see why Tranquil could not be either.  It IS lore that Dwarves (surface or not) don't go to the fade to dream. 

Jowan broke the law, wether or not you believe blood magic isn't evil doesn't matter. Jowan broke the law and should be punished accordingly.

That is never the end of the story, however.  Sometimes the law is unjust and has to be opposed.  Given that Jowan was going to be lobomized without a hearing, any chance to present his side, or even (if things had gone perfectly) with his knowledge, I'd say the law needs to be reexamined.  The Chantry's overreaction (and hypocritical overreaction....Adralla was a bloodmage after all) to bloodmagic and "creative" interpretation of the Chant of Light to justify it has done far more harm than good including causing virtually all medical scientific advances to be ground to a halt.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

Torax wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Greagoir also calls it a gift... His worind is somewhat like "The magic you bear is a gift, but it is also a curse", then he says something about demons and the Fade and the threat they pose to mages.

The part that some will just not admitt because it doesn't support their cause is that Demons are a constant threat to any mage and some do not wish to have to battle them for their entire life times. Constantly having a test of wills against a creature that selfishly wants to possess you for their own enjoyment. This is what would have some like Kelli calling it a curse. Magic is a tool that has great benefits and also has the potential for great destruction. Not just the destruction of others but also of oneself if they can't even control it. Not everyone is the player character able to master a spell by just clicking a button. In lore it is more like "I only burned myself once yesterday."

Also keep in mind a character like KCG, his own words can be based more in how he is looking at magic when he says them. Even Fenris admitts magic has it's uses. This is why even the Qunari do not kill their Mages outright. But it's also a tool of destruction. Plus any words Greg would be using about magic after Jowan knocked him out is fueled by his being attacked by a blood mage. Just like when he starts to take action at you even if you were working under Irving's Orders. His ability to reason is pushed away and is more fueled by his want of death of a blood mage.

I admit that demons plague mages. How often "constantly" actually is we don't really know. I doubt a mage keeps hearing "Hey, want some power? Maybe a piece of candy?" all day long.

However, not all mages who are plagued by demons see magic as a curse. Anders and Wynne, who are in a bit of a situation themselves since they're merged with spirits, still view magic as a gift. Anders especially, because his own anger twisted Justice into a being of Justice and Vengeance intertwined as one, to the best of our knowledge.

But even with his self almost entirely destroyed, he still views magic as a gift.

[EmperorSahlertz]

As I recall it was adressed on the foums that a dwarf who has been on the surface for long enough will start dreaming. Instead of "sleeping like the stone". Could be that it was simply a theory put forward, the discussion was quite a long time ago.

What side should Jowan tell? He was a blood mage. Blood magic is illegal, and punishable by death. End of story. He could certainly go and try and lie his way through, but then a guilty man would walk free. Irving and Greagoir had the proof they needed to pass judgement. THis isn't a modern court of law where all sides are heard, it is more akin to a feudal court.

And again, Adralla MIGHT have been a blood mage, none of us can prove anything. But since we are talking about magic, there are infinite possibilities as to how you can create counters, without being an actual blood mage.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

As I recall it was adressed on the foums that a dwarf who has been on the surface for long enough will start dreaming. Instead of "sleeping like the stone". Could be that it was simply a theory put forward, the discussion was quite a long time ago.

I don't remember ANY game lore that says that surface dwarves dream in the fade.  I do know that surface dwarves lose their magic resistance but that's not the same thing (although it might be related).

What side should Jowan tell? He was a blood mage. Blood magic is illegal, and punishable by death. End of story. He could certainly go and try and lie his way through, but then a guilty man would walk free. Irving and Greagoir had the proof they needed to pass judgement. THis isn't a modern court of law where all sides are heard, it is more akin to a feudal court.

You are metagaming.  Until Jowan cut his wrists there was NO PROOF that Jowan was in fact a bloodmage.  The Knight Commander was able to take someone's unsubstaniated word, and impose a setence without a hearing or any chance for Jowan to defend himself.

In addition to that, I think this "bloodmagic is evil, arrrgh" attitude needs to end.  I think we agree that bloodmagic is powerful, possibly addictive, dangerous, and not for everyone, but the Chantry's attitude towards bloodmagic has frankly done more harm than good, especially when the Chantry is so hypocritical about it.

And again, Adralla MIGHT have been a blood mage, none of us can prove anything. But since we are talking about magic, there are infinite possibilities as to how you can create counters, without being an actual blood mage.

She HAD to be a bloodmage and her codex entry even says she was a Tevinter mage that studied bloodmagic (which makes her a bloodmage!)  Unless you use bloodmagic mindcontrol, there is simply no way to develope and test the Litany of Adralla to begin with!

-Polaris