IanPolaris wrote...
She HAD to be a bloodmage and her codex entry even says she was a Tevinter mage that studied bloodmagic (which makes her a bloodmage!) Unless you use bloodmagic mindcontrol, there is simply no way to develope and test the Litany of Adralla to begin with!
-Polaris
Wulfram wrote...
IanPolaris wrote...
She HAD to be a bloodmage and her codex entry even says she was a Tevinter mage that studied bloodmagic (which makes her a bloodmage!) Unless you use bloodmagic mindcontrol, there is simply no way to develope and test the Litany of Adralla to begin with!
-Polaris
Said Codex says she did not practice blood magic, which makes her not a blood mage. Plus, Wynne gives a different account, and I'd generally believe stuff Bioware went to the bother of VOing over stuff in the codex.
My point isn't that, though. It is that there are no dwarf mages in existence today (ignoring Sandal's abilities for a moment). Also, DA2 seems to suggest that dwarves could once do magic, which could mean they somehow have lost that ability a long time ago, willingly or otherwise. And we know that dwarves don't go to the Fade when they dream, so these two might be related.EmperorSahlertz wrote...
As I recall it was adressed on the foums that a dwarf who has been on the surface for long enough will start dreaming. Instead of "sleeping like the stone". Could be that it was simply a theory put forward, the discussion was quite a long time ago.
IanPolaris wrote...
Wynne is frequently factually wrong which is why I give her less weight than the codecies (see Grey Warden Mages). Really that should be enough.
-Polaris
Torax wrote...
IanPolaris wrote...
Wynne is frequently factually wrong which is why I give her less weight than the codecies (see Grey Warden Mages). Really that should be enough.
-Polaris
No see you using a codex to attempt to outweigh a character in a world is basically almost near what you accuse her of having less weight for. See you use codexs which are opinions of other characters from one point of view to attempt to outweigh a person who lives within said Circle. That is the equal to taking passages out of context from the Bible to support to some case of morality when if the entire passage of the Bible was read it could actually work against the cause. Wynne dislikes Blood Magic cause of the negatives it leads to. More likely to be in the way of demons. Even Anders hates demons. Wynne respects Andraste but doesn't appear to consider herself a devoted member of the Chantry. She does what she feels is right. You would use a Codex to invalidate her while at the same time pointing out in another case that a codex was written by the Chantry to suit their needs. You can't have both. I'd still take Wynne's word over a member of the Chantry. I'd take someone who does things for the right the reasons not just because of a letter of the law.
IanPolaris wrote...
Torax wrote...
IanPolaris wrote...
Wynne is frequently factually wrong which is why I give her less weight than the codecies (see Grey Warden Mages). Really that should be enough.
-Polaris
No see you using a codex to attempt to outweigh a character in a world is basically almost near what you accuse her of having less weight for. See you use codexs which are opinions of other characters from one point of view to attempt to outweigh a person who lives within said Circle. That is the equal to taking passages out of context from the Bible to support to some case of morality when if the entire passage of the Bible was read it could actually work against the cause. Wynne dislikes Blood Magic cause of the negatives it leads to. More likely to be in the way of demons. Even Anders hates demons. Wynne respects Andraste but doesn't appear to consider herself a devoted member of the Chantry. She does what she feels is right. You would use a Codex to invalidate her while at the same time pointing out in another case that a codex was written by the Chantry to suit their needs. You can't have both. I'd still take Wynne's word over a member of the Chantry. I'd take someone who does things for the right the reasons not just because of a letter of the law.
Yes and this is justified. The Codecies represent the Lore of the Game as it is interpreted and understood by the authors of the Codex. While that might mean a Codex is factually incorrect, it DOES mean the information is correct and factual (like an encyclopedia entry) according to the people that wrote it. Furthermore, presumably, like encyclopedia articles, Codex entries reflect works of scholarship with research, fact-checking, etc. What Wynne gives is her own unsubstantianted opinion of who she thinks Adralla is (which doesn't even make casual sense since she says Adralla is a "Bard" but all bards in Thedas are Rogues and then identifies the Litany as a spell).
The Codex entry is self-referentially consistant within the context of who wrote it (unlike most of what Wynne has to say).
Ergo, I give more weight to the Codex.
-Polaris
IanPolaris wrote...
No I'm not. I discount Wynne testimony unless I have no other option because she is so frequently wrong. I almost always use the Codex entries as my "go to" source for game lore with the UNDERSTANDING that these Codex entries are written with a specific PoV that has to be accounted for.
-Polaris
Torax wrote...
IanPolaris wrote...
No I'm not. I discount Wynne testimony unless I have no other option because she is so frequently wrong. I almost always use the Codex entries as my "go to" source for game lore with the UNDERSTANDING that these Codex entries are written with a specific PoV that has to be accounted for.
-Polaris
I could argue some are just a parable or a story at best. For example all the traveling tales and opinions of the Scholar. Those are hardly factual that they are just his opinion of how he sees a culture. This is same for all Codexs. So this is why I accuse of you of using them as a fact if they support your case and discrediting them if they do not. They are opinions and some of them are so old they were opinions of Thedas forged long before Wynne was even born. Many of them were based in the Chantry before it evolved to their current state. So it's like a reference to an encyclopedia from 1705 versus one from 2005. The World view alone would be completely different. So you don't get to shield yourself via just a text format versus someone living in a present day Circle. That would actually more help to validate Wynne than invalidate her.
Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 24 juin 2011 - 07:06 .
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Again: we are talking about MAGIC, there are infinite possibilities for Adralla to be able to study her countermeasures without being a blood mage herself. It is MAGIC. Hence the common phrase: a MAGE did it.
On a side note: in which cases was Wynne wrong about? I disagreed with her on some points, but I don't remember her being explicitly wrong.
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
She could also have tested it by being given permit to follow Templars who were hunting a known blood mage.. The possibilities are infinite.
So Wynne is wrong about a secretive organization, and that devaluates all her other opionions? That's... I don't even... Really?
IanPolaris wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Again: we are talking about MAGIC, there are infinite possibilities for Adralla to be able to study her countermeasures without being a blood mage herself. It is MAGIC. Hence the common phrase: a MAGE did it.
In Dragon Age, Magic follows certain rules and has laws that can be discovered and followed. Basically magic in Thedas is pretty much what science (or more accurately technology) is to this one. As such, how is Adralla going to discover if her litany works? She has to TEST IT! How does she test this? She has to be a bloodmage. No getting around it. Saying, "But it's magic" when magic is defined, is intellectually lazy and frankly dishonest.
-Polaris
Modifié par sphinxess, 24 juin 2011 - 07:25 .
To be fair, I don't think I'm much better. I'm just in the opposite camp than Polaris, and we've been going at it for a while now.Torax wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
She could also have tested it by being given permit to follow Templars who were hunting a known blood mage.. The possibilities are infinite.
So Wynne is wrong about a secretive organization, and that devaluates all her other opionions? That's... I don't even... Really?
This is why I tend to be in conflict with him. This self vindication that blinds him to all other points of views. He'll keep this path no matter what. He finds some opening and goes with it for years. So yes if she is wrong by giving the player a story about gray wardens that is more just a parable about how they protect mankind? She will be wrong about anything else that is in conflict with his opinion of things like the Chantry, The Circles, The Templars and so on. Especially if any of it is against his constant argument that mages are oppressed and magic is repressed by the Chantry. Including things like Blood Magic...
Wouldn't it have been more valuable to test it against blood mages who were actively trying to control minds? The litany does not work if the spell was already cast and it also hurts Abominations, and I think it would be rather ineffecient if she had someone else use the litany while she was using blood magic and she couldn't use it while she was casting herself because both seem to require concentration.IanPolaris wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Again: we are talking about MAGIC, there are infinite possibilities for Adralla to be able to study her countermeasures without being a blood mage herself. It is MAGIC. Hence the common phrase: a MAGE did it.
In Dragon Age, Magic follows certain rules and has laws that can be discovered and followed. Basically magic in Thedas is pretty much what science (or more accurately technology) is to this one. As such, how is Adralla going to discover if her litany works? She has to TEST IT! How does she test this? She has to be a bloodmage. No getting around it. Saying, "But it's magic" when magic is defined, is intellectually lazy and frankly dishonest.
-Polaris
maxernst wrote...
Oh, certainly the mage hunters could be in control of the state. And trained mages who have proven themselves may very well be okay in society--and that appears to be how the Circle in Ferelden operates. All Wynne had to do to join the Warden was ask the First Enchanter for permission. Presumably that was how the mage that was searching for rare herbs in DA:A was out there--she was obviously not an apostate. But some some sort of external control is required, and I see no evidence that Anders was willing to accept that. Being torn from one's family is inevitable if you happen to be born in small village (as most people probably are), because mages need to be trained to be safe. Not to mention the fact that I don't see how non-mage parents would cope with a child with potentially lethal temper tantrums.
In the societies where mages are supposedly "free" cited by people, I have a strong suspicion that mages occupy a distinct social caste (shaman/seer/keeper etc). Because of strong cultural tradtions, conditioning for their role since childhood, and quite probably a role that gives them a high social status and quality material life, the vast majority of mages in these societies are probably content with their role, and willing to put down those that aren't. But social controls are far easier to exert in highly traditional societies than in a place like Kirkwall or even Ferelden, and you can't simply import social models derived from other societies in a piecemeal fashion. I still say that in a more competitive society, like Kirkwall appears to be, free mages will always wind up on top, and a minority which is innately different from the rest of the population will ultimately treat the rest of the population brutally. Slavery may be abhorrent according to the Andrastean religion, but the notion that slavery makes the Tevinter Imperium SO different that freeing the Circles from chantry oversight (which is still not free enough for Anders' taste) will perfectly fine elsewhere is misguided. And what is slavery anyway? According to what we heard in DA:O, the chevaliers in Orlais enjoy the right to rape their peasants. I wouldn't be surprised if Orlesian serfs are legally bound to the land and effectively bought and sold with it. How different is that from slavery, really?
Torax wrote...
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
but did Kelli see her magic as a curse of her own volition or because she's been spoonfed that it is a curse? The Chantry preaches that magic is a curse
The demons will call to mages in their dreams. Some may not have the will or the wish to have to face it. Owain asked to be made Tranquil because he didn't want to face the harrowing or be plagued by demons. This is the same thing Kelli seemed to be feeling. You want to see her as a pressured to think it's a curse? By whom? I doubt Irving would ever say such a thing. Gregoir didn't seem to be the sort to call it a curse. The Chantry didn't seem to imply magic is a curse. Meredith did. But that is one person not all. The Chantry claims that the Magisters brought their sin to the seat of the maker and then became the first darkspawn. This can be implied as magic is sinful but that in no way means it's a curse. What you are doing is applying it from the view of a villain you dislike not the general feeling the games have shown.
Sajuro wrote...
[Wouldn't it have been more valuable to test it against blood mages who were actively trying to control minds? The litany does not work if the spell was already cast and it also hurts Abominations, and I think it would be rather ineffecient if she had someone else use the litany while she was using blood magic and she couldn't use it while she was casting herself because both seem to require concentration.
Her testing it in combat would also make more sense since she did live in tevinter and blood mages were a lot more common than in the rest of Thedas.
Besides, before finishing it, she could have studied the theory of blood magic and how it worked to mind control people before coming up with, in theory, something that could counteract the casting of blood magic bent on mind control.
Could Adralla have been a practicing blood mage, possibly, was the only way to test her litany was to use blood magic to mind control people, nope.
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