1008 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

At least elf mages in Tevinter don't accept their inferiority. But I kind of agree with you on that part; it seems like the city elves really do need one of their own who can lead them out of this. The CE Warden would be ideal, but is it too much to ask for an elf mage Warden to be able to do so as well?

[CrimsonZephyr]

Xilizhra wrote...

At least elf mages in Tevinter don't accept their inferiority. But I kind of agree with you on that part; it seems like the city elves really do need one of their own who can lead them out of this. The CE Warden would be ideal, but is it too much to ask for an elf mage Warden to be able to do so as well?

Yes, elf mages assert their non-inferiority by stepping on the faces of everyone. True egalitarians, them.

[Xilizhra]

Maybe so, but Tevinter still seems to be the most racially equal nation in Thedas, other than the qunari lands. Which is rather sad.

[dragonflight288]

Which makes for an interesting conundrum. We don't want another Imperium. And most people don't like the Qunari way of life. But the Imperium and the Qunari are the leaders in racial equality. Interesting.

[Uccio]

^ it´s more like Chantry doesn´t want another Imperium.

Modifié par Ukki, 29 février 2012 - 08:48 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

To Emperor, what would you do to improve the situation? I know you're a templar supporter, and we have had some interesting debates in the past, and I've watched you debate others. But I can't recall (granted, I have a short-term memory at the moment. Just woke up) if you ever said how you would improve the situation.

How would you appease the mages that call templars brutal tyrants and abusive power seekers over their charges? Or how would you get rid of the corruption within the templars?
 

The Circles would continue to operate largely as they already do. I would however seperate both Circle and Templars from the Chantry. With the Chantry no longer in charge of Templar recruitment, it would no longer be zealotry that was the most attractive attribute in a person, but rather the will to do what must be done.
I would disband the verdict that says that Templars (usually) aren't allowed to marry. They are no longer part of the Chantry, and there is no reason for them to remain chaste.
I would allow for mages to earn the right to live outside the Circles and to marry and establish families. And yes, when you are naturally an unwilling danger to yourself and everyone around you, the right to marry and start a family is something you need to earn.

[dragonflight288]

The Circles would continue to operate largely as they already do. I would however seperate both Circle and Templars from the Chantry. With the Chantry no longer in charge of Templar recruitment, it would no longer be zealotry that was the most attractive attribute in a person, but rather the will to do what must be done.
I would disband the verdict that says that Templars (usually) aren't allowed to marry. They are no longer part of the Chantry, and there is no reason for them to remain chaste.
I would allow for mages to earn the right to live outside the Circles and to marry and establish families. And yes, when you are naturally an unwilling danger to yourself and everyone around you, the right to marry and start a family is something you need to earn.

All right. To play devil's advocate here.

How would the mage earn the right to marry? Wilhelm earned it from the Chantry already based on his service in the war with Orlais. But even Gregoire, who is largely considered a model templar, thought sending seven mages to fight the blight was too many. So mages as it is now, have next to no opportunity to advance outside of the Circle and prove they are trustworthy.

As for the templar recruitment? They have been recruiting zealots as the mold for centuries. How would you convince the leaders the time has come to change that? To recruit people of substance and quality, who'll make the difficult decisions because it's the only choice left, rather than people of like-mindedness. The templars wanted to assassinate the bloody Divine herself because she wasn't hardcore enough for them. They openly rebelled because of it.

How would you convince them that they're wrong without being suspected of being influenced by a blood mage or worthy of assassination?

And speaking of the rebellion. You said separate the Circles and the Templars from the Chantry. Very well, who will they join then? Will the Circles be on their own and largely mercenary? Would the templars serve the crown of the country they live in? Would the Circle? Would they be part of the same group? What's your plan there?

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Circles would continue to operate largely as they already do. I would however seperate both Circle and Templars from the Chantry. With the Chantry no longer in charge of Templar recruitment, it would no longer be zealotry that was the most attractive attribute in a person, but rather the will to do what must be done.
I would disband the verdict that says that Templars (usually) aren't allowed to marry. They are no longer part of the Chantry, and there is no reason for them to remain chaste.
I would allow for mages to earn the right to live outside the Circles and to marry and establish families. And yes, when you are naturally an unwilling danger to yourself and everyone around you, the right to marry and start a family is something you need to earn.

All right. To play devil's advocate here.

How would the mage earn the right to marry? Wilhelm earned it from the Chantry already based on his service in the war with Orlais. But even Gregoire, who is largely considered a model templar, thought sending seven mages to fight the blight was too many. So mages as it is now, have next to no opportunity to advance outside of the Circle and prove they are trustworthy.

As for the templar recruitment? They have been recruiting zealots as the mold for centuries. How would you convince the leaders the time has come to change that? To recruit people of substance and quality, who'll make the difficult decisions because it's the only choice left, rather than people of like-mindedness. The templars wanted to assassinate the bloody Divine herself because she wasn't hardcore enough for them. They openly rebelled because of it.

How would you convince them that they're wrong without being suspected of being influenced by a blood mage or worthy of assassination?

And speaking of the rebellion. You said separate the Circles and the Templars from the Chantry. Very well, who will they join then? Will the Circles be on their own and largely mercenary? Would the templars serve the crown of the country they live in? Would the Circle? Would they be part of the same group? What's your plan there?

No doubt the leadership of both the Templars and the Circle would have to be removed, and replaced with persons willing to support a change to the system. This would in turn facilitate the change in recruitment planning for the Templars. And also ease off the pressure from the mages as the changes start to take effect.

The mages would have to prove themselves to the First Enchanter and Knight-Commander (or rather, the Knight-Commander would be allowed to veto the decission of the First Enchanter) to be allowed to live outside the Circle. Go through your harrowing, and show an apitude for self-restraint and resistance to temptation, and you are a long way. Proving yourself does not have to be through warfare you know. Especially in the case of mages, it should be a much larger focus on philosophical aspects, since the dangers a mage face, is of the mind, his mind should be the in balance and like a fortress, not his body.

How I would facilitate these changes are a different matter entirely, and would probably warrant a thread of its own. Right now I'm just theorizing about an ideal system.

The Circles and Templars would both become intertwined international organizations. Countries would have laws of their own regtarding magic, and the Circle would decide wether or not to establish a base in said country. The Templars would be there both to uphold the country's laws, and protect the mages from the country's potential misuse.

[Plaintiff]

Denying mages the right to marry because they are "dangerous" only makes sense if getting married would make them more dangerous.

Last I checked, they can still turn you inside out with a snap of their fingers, whether you put on a ring on it or not.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Plaintiff wrote...

Denying mages the right to marry because they are "dangerous" only makes sense if getting married would make them more dangerous.

Last I checked, they can still turn you inside out with a snap of their fingers, whether you put on a ring on it or not.

It is not about their power. It is about their control. A mage must be able to handle tragedy if he is to be allowed marriage. If he can't handle tradegy, chances are that he will either do something rash (blood magic) to "rescue his love", or he will simply lose all control and succumb to demons.

[Ivucci]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Denying mages the right to marry because they are "dangerous" only makes sense if getting married would make them more dangerous.

Last I checked, they can still turn you inside out with a snap of their fingers, whether you put on a ring on it or not.

It is not about their power. It is about their control. A mage must be able to handle tragedy if he is to be allowed marriage. If he can't handle tradegy, chances are that he will either do something rash (blood magic) to "rescue his love", or he will simply lose all control and succumb to demons.

Marriage and getting married can actually stabilize one's life and personality. You can feel safer, happier, it's more likely you will be secured financially, you can rely on the other person to help you get through all the sh*t life gives you, it can make you a better person. It helps you grow and mature emotionally. It gives you new meaning. It makes you more responsible as you realize you're there not just for yourself but for your mate, and potentially a child, as well.

Or not.

My point is that using "marriage can lead to a tragedy" as an argument for mage control is utterly invalid.

Edit: which is also the reason why I always let Anders live on friendship/friendlymance. He hints on his intention to have a family, and that he fights for the world where mage children can be born free. This is just a very strong plus point in my eyes. There are other reasons, too, but this is one of them, and I'm only mentioning it because we touched the family theme. And yes I know I digress, sorry.

Modifié par Ivucci, 01 mars 2012 - 10:13 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

I have yet to witness a marriage which havn't been the direct cause of emotional instability. Not chronic mind you. But all it takes for a mage is one slip, and then he is done for. One slip, and 80 people lies dead at his hands.

Envy, jealousy, desire, anger, the list goes on. All these emotions are far more frequent in a married couple, than in an unmarried and, needless to say, even less so in a person not romantically involved with anyone. These emotions are exactly what a mage needs to be capable of rising above, and only focus on the good ones. Sadly, romance rarely encourage rationalism.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 01 mars 2012 - 10:18 .

[Wulfram]

People aren't going to stop acting like idiots over love because you stop them getting married.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wulfram wrote...

People aren't going to stop acting like idiots over love because you stop them getting married.

Mages are gonna have to.. And I was merely using marriage as an analogue for romantic involvement.

[Ivucci]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I have yet to witness a marriage which havn't been the direct cause of emotional instability. Not chronic
mind you. But all it takes for a mage is one slip, and then he is done for. One slip, and 80 people lies dead at his hands.

That you have yet to witness a marriage that leads to emotional stability sounds, in fact, a little bit sad. A marriage that turns sour is painful indeed. A marriage that overcomes its problems is a blessing. Romantic love does crazy things, but stable relationship is what helps many people to go on.

I say loneliness, the prospect of having to live one's life alone because no one will want to marry a mage, the prospect of facing all the stupid sh*t of this life alone, that can cause quite a huge deal of emotional instability.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And I was merely using marriage as an analogue for romantic involvement.

No, you said mages should have to earn their right to get married.

Will you have them "earn their right to fall in love"? That doesn't quite work does it? Marriage is not the problem you're looking for.

Modifié par Ivucci, 01 mars 2012 - 01:34 .

[Plaintiff]

It's already established in the lore that the vast majority of mages are peaceful, law-abiding citizens. If that isn't enough to earn basic respect and the same rights that are automatically granted to anyone else, then what is? They already put up with a substantial amount of abuse that is only rivalled by similarly disenfranchised groups like the City Elves and the Casteless Dwarves.

Mages prove themselves an asset to their communities over and over again. The people of Honnleath had no problems with taking shelter behind magical defenses, the people of Darktown had no qualms about taking advantage of Anders' free healing services. Thedas as a whole benefits greatly from magical firepower. And it's never, ever been good enough. The Chantry and the bigots that blindly follow its doctrine just keep raising the bar higher and higher, and abuse the rare instances where mages step out of line to spread their prejudice and fearmongering. The inherent risks in magic are proportional to its potential benefits, and if the populace is content to benefit from magic and reward the users with slavery, then they fully deserve to have fire rained down on them.

It's ridiculous and insulting to suggest that mages should have to "work harder" and wait patiently for the Chantry to spontaneously "change its mind". I would like someone to name one instance in real life where such a thing has ever happened before.

People are going to point to the events of Asunder and the Divine and say "herpyderpderp she was getting around to it". I say, **** that noise. It's one thousand years too late and all she did was dither and wring her hands and let her subordinates boss her around. I fully support the decision of the mages to go to war, and I don't even care if it does lead to a new Tevinter, it's what the Chantry and its sheep deserve. Once the subjugated mages have had their turn at a millenium of tyranny, we can discuss equality.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 01 mars 2012 - 01:49 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Ivucci wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I have yet to witness a marriage which havn't been the direct cause of emotional instability. Not chronic
mind you. But all it takes for a mage is one slip, and then he is done for. One slip, and 80 people lies dead at his hands.

That you have yet to witness a marriage that leads to emotional stability sounds, in fact, a little bit sad. A marriage that turns sour is painful indeed. A marriage that overcomes its problems is a blessing. Romantic love does crazy things, but stable relationship is what helps many people to go on.

I say loneliness, the prospect of having to live one's life alone because no one will want to marry a mage, the prospect of facing all the stupid sh*t of this life alone, that can cause quite a huge deal of emotional instability. 

Are you saying that you have witnessed marriages in which the couple never had a huge fight, or in which they never were jealous of eachother at some point? Because if so, I'd suspect you of lying. It is a very natural thing to feel these emotions in a relationship, at some point during its duration. They don't have to be constant, or even ruin the relationship, but they are always present at some point. These kinds of emotions are extremely dangerous for mages, and that is the crux of the problem with mages and romantic involvement.
Mages also don't have to be alone their whole lives. No one is forbidding them from making friends with eachother, or in the system I'm proposing the Templalrs and even people outsdie the Circle.

[esper]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ivucci wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I have yet to witness a marriage which havn't been the direct cause of emotional instability. Not chronic
mind you. But all it takes for a mage is one slip, and then he is done for. One slip, and 80 people lies dead at his hands.

That you have yet to witness a marriage that leads to emotional stability sounds, in fact, a little bit sad. A marriage that turns sour is painful indeed. A marriage that overcomes its problems is a blessing. Romantic love does crazy things, but stable relationship is what helps many people to go on.

I say loneliness, the prospect of having to live one's life alone because no one will want to marry a mage, the prospect of facing all the stupid sh*t of this life alone, that can cause quite a huge deal of emotional instability. 

Are you saying that you have witnessed marriages in which the couple never had a huge fight, or in which they never were jealous of eachother at some point? Because if so, I'd suspect you of lying. It is a very natural thing to feel these emotions in a relationship, at some point during its duration. They don't have to be constant, or even ruin the relationship, but they are always present at some point. These kinds of emotions are extremely dangerous for mages, and that is the crux of the problem with mages and romantic involvement.
Mages also don't have to be alone their whole lives. No one is forbidding them from making friends with eachother, or in the system I'm proposing the Templalrs and even people outsdie the Circle.

You cannot prevent people from falling in love by law, spend long enough time with someone as friends and it will develop if the chemestry is right. If it is forbidden it will just cause more turmoil and likely more anger plus and easy target m(the one who makes the rule) for blame when it goes wrong.
Humans are emotional by nature and trying to surpress those emotion will just make it more likely to create the destructive emotion such as for example anger or pride which demons prey on. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Plaintiff wrote...

It's ridiculous and insulting to suggest that mages should have to "work harder" and wait patiently for the Chantry to spontaneously "change its mind". I would like someone to name one instance in real life where such a thing has ever happened before.

You ask for one, I'll give you two.

African-American Civil Rights Movement
Homosexuality Equality Campaign.

The list is quite a bit longer. But hopefully you will understand, that peaceful change often are the best.

[EmperorSahlertz]

esper wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ivucci wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I have yet to witness a marriage which havn't been the direct cause of emotional instability. Not chronic
mind you. But all it takes for a mage is one slip, and then he is done for. One slip, and 80 people lies dead at his hands.

That you have yet to witness a marriage that leads to emotional stability sounds, in fact, a little bit sad. A marriage that turns sour is painful indeed. A marriage that overcomes its problems is a blessing. Romantic love does crazy things, but stable relationship is what helps many people to go on.

I say loneliness, the prospect of having to live one's life alone because no one will want to marry a mage, the prospect of facing all the stupid sh*t of this life alone, that can cause quite a huge deal of emotional instability. 

Are you saying that you have witnessed marriages in which the couple never had a huge fight, or in which they never were jealous of eachother at some point? Because if so, I'd suspect you of lying. It is a very natural thing to feel these emotions in a relationship, at some point during its duration. They don't have to be constant, or even ruin the relationship, but they are always present at some point. These kinds of emotions are extremely dangerous for mages, and that is the crux of the problem with mages and romantic involvement.
Mages also don't have to be alone their whole lives. No one is forbidding them from making friends with eachother, or in the system I'm proposing the Templalrs and even people outsdie the Circle.

You cannot prevent people from falling in love by law, spend long enough time with someone as friends and it will develop if the chemestry is right. If it is forbidden it will just cause more turmoil and likely more anger plus and easy target m(the one who makes the rule) for blame when it goes wrong.
Humans are emotional by nature and trying to surpress those emotion will just make it more likely to create the destructive emotion such as for example anger or pride which demons prey on. 

I know. And I'd wish every mage was capable of handling it on the emotional level. Sadly they are not. But the Circle must train their mages to obtain a serenity in their mind to be able to handle it.

[DPSSOC]

Plaintiff wrote...
It's ridiculous and insulting to suggest that mages should have to "work harder" and wait patiently for the Chantry to spontaneously "change its mind". I would like someone to name one instance in real life where such a thing has ever happened before.

Canadian Independence.

Plaintiff wrote...
Once the subjugated mages have had their turn at a millenium of tyranny, we can discuss equality.

The mages have been going at their turn for 2 millenia now, with a brief 300 year stutter.  You can't argue the mages' right to a millenium of tyranny in response to the Chantry's millenium of tyranny, which was itself in response to the mages' millenium of tyranny.  Either we end with the normies having had their turn against the mages and call it even or the wheel just keeps on turning.

[Xilizhra]

The list is quite a bit longer. But hopefully you will understand, that peaceful change often are the best.

It only works when the people are already integrated into society. The part actually leading up to blacks being integrated into white society was exceedingly (and largely necessarily) violent.

I know. And I'd wish every mage was capable of handling it on the emotional level. Sadly they are not. But the Circle must train their mages to obtain a serenity in their mind to be able to handle it.

Mages don't turn into abominations spontaneously unless the Veil is already shredded, which admittedly happened in Kirkwall, but that place should never have had a Circle to begin with. Connor became an abomination because he actually had to summon a demon, because he was an untrained and therefore kind of dumb kid.

The mages have been going at their turn for 2 millenia now, with a brief 300 year stutter. You can't argue the mages' right to a millenium of tyranny in response to the Chantry's millenium of tyranny, which was itself in response to the mages' millenium of tyranny. Either we end with the normies having had their turn against the mages and call it even or the wheel just keeps on turning.

I agree, but for different reasons. The wheel should have stopped with the mages and things going even from there.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 01 mars 2012 - 02:38 .

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

The mages have been going at their turn for 2 millenia now, with a brief 300 year stutter. You can't argue the mages' right to a millenium of tyranny in response to the Chantry's millenium of tyranny, which was itself in response to the mages' millenium of tyranny. Either we end with the normies having had their turn against the mages and call it even or the wheel just keeps on turning.

I agree, but for different reasons. The wheel should have stopped with the mages and things going even from there.

Yes probably but unless someone in the DA universe magics up time travel that's no longer an option.  Or a Dr. Who crossover.

[esper]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

esper wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ivucci wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I have yet to witness a marriage which havn't been the direct cause of emotional instability. Not chronic
mind you. But all it takes for a mage is one slip, and then he is done for. One slip, and 80 people lies dead at his hands.

That you have yet to witness a marriage that leads to emotional stability sounds, in fact, a little bit sad. A marriage that turns sour is painful indeed. A marriage that overcomes its problems is a blessing. Romantic love does crazy things, but stable relationship is what helps many people to go on.

I say loneliness, the prospect of having to live one's life alone because no one will want to marry a mage, the prospect of facing all the stupid sh*t of this life alone, that can cause quite a huge deal of emotional instability. 

Are you saying that you have witnessed marriages in which the couple never had a huge fight, or in which they never were jealous of eachother at some point? Because if so, I'd suspect you of lying. It is a very natural thing to feel these emotions in a relationship, at some point during its duration. They don't have to be constant, or even ruin the relationship, but they are always present at some point. These kinds of emotions are extremely dangerous for mages, and that is the crux of the problem with mages and romantic involvement.
Mages also don't have to be alone their whole lives. No one is forbidding them from making friends with eachother, or in the system I'm proposing the Templalrs and even people outsdie the Circle.

You cannot prevent people from falling in love by law, spend long enough time with someone as friends and it will develop if the chemestry is right. If it is forbidden it will just cause more turmoil and likely more anger plus and easy target m(the one who makes the rule) for blame when it goes wrong.
Humans are emotional by nature and trying to surpress those emotion will just make it more likely to create the destructive emotion such as for example anger or pride which demons prey on. 

I know. And I'd wish every mage was capable of handling it on the emotional level. Sadly they are not. But the Circle must train their mages to obtain a serenity in their mind to be able to handle it.

You don't ever get that serenty by ripping children away from their parents and then locking them up in a religious organisation with guardians that feels they have an religious duty to guard everyoneone against the mages (Again I know not everyone feel that way, but that a few do is enough), and you certainly don't do it by further preventing marriage and other things they would have known to be the norm.

Generally speaking apostate mages who have been apostate their whole childhood seems much more emotional stable and strong than anyone who have been forced into the circle system at an early age.

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

It's ridiculous and insulting to suggest that mages should have to "work harder" and wait patiently for the Chantry to spontaneously "change its mind". I would like someone to name one instance in real life where such a thing has ever happened before.

You ask for one, I'll give you two.

African-American Civil Rights Movement
Homosexuality Equality Campaign.

The list is quite a bit longer. But hopefully you will understand, that peaceful change often are the best.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha. I hope that's a joke.

Both movements were far from "peaceful". In fact, there was and is a lot of violence on both sides of both conflicts. Ever hear of the Stonewall Riots? As of the current date, I would not go sar far as to call the Gay RIghts Campaign a 'success' in any case.

Secondly, I didn't ask for "peaceful" change. I asked for spontaneous changes made purely of the volition of the majority power, with no external pressure. If minority groups had to organize any sort of political movement, then it doesn't count, because they still had to take action and actively wrest their basic civil rights from the government.

Obviously I would prefer peaceful change in any situation. I would also like it if bigots were capable of realising that they are terrible people and going into the woods to dispose of themselves quietly, but that's not going to happen.

Furthermore, the situation the mages have to deal with is entirely unique. There is no real option for any sort of meaningful dialogue between the two groups because mages live in an environment where it is totally acceptable to lobotomise or outright kill a large group of them for fairly minor offenses. Blacks and Homosexuals put up with a lot of ****, sure, but at least they can't be subjected to government-sanctioned extermination.

As organizations, the Chantry and the Templars have an extensive history of responding to mage rebellion (or any kind of rebellion, for that matter) with excessive force. Violence is the only response they've ever employed in the past, the mages had no reason to think they were going to start being rational, and given how long they've been waiting already, I think it is completely unfair to tell them that they should've been more patient.