1008 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

DPSSOC wrote...
Canadian Independence.

Unless you can prove Canadians were an abused, disenfranchised minority group, I'm gonna say "no".

There are vast differences between granting civil rights and giving a country its independace.

The mages have been going at their turn for 2 millenia now, with a brief 300 year stutter.  You can't argue the mages' right to a millenium of tyranny in response to the Chantry's millenium of tyranny, which was itself in response to the mages' millenium of tyranny.  Either we end with the normies having had their turn against the mages and call it even or the wheel just keeps on turning.

Again, no. Tevinter Mages are a completely unrelated group. What they do is of no consequence to the specific issue of mages in nations that are under the heel of the "White" Chantry. That's the same batcrap-crazy logic that led to the internment of American citizens of Japanese descent in World War 2.

In fact, it's much worse, because mages born and living outside of Tevinter have no possible emotional, cultural or genetic connection to it at all.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Who the hell have ever asked the mages to just sit on their asses and wait for change? NO ONE. So why are you on the fence about that? What people actually ask of the mages, are to try for peaceful change, which is a very real possibility, and the best of them too.
And when the **** have a rebellion ever been by anyhting but violence from the powers rebelled against? Are you trying to pin the Chantry as "evil", just because it acts EXACTLY like any other organization/nation with power? How dare they!


And are you honestly trying to pin the equality movements as violent, in comparison with global warfare?.... Really?... Wow.

[Xilizhra]

Are you trying to pin the Chantry as "evil", just because it acts EXACTLY like any other organization/nation with power? How dare they!

Most of them are evil, really.

[EmperorSahlertz]

esper wrote...

You don't ever get that serenty by ripping children away from their parents and then locking them up in a religious organisation with guardians that feels they have an religious duty to guard everyoneone against the mages (Again I know not everyone feel that way, but that a few do is enough), and you certainly don't do it by further preventing marriage and other things they would have known to be the norm.

Generally speaking apostate mages who have been apostate their whole childhood seems much more emotional stable and strong than anyone who have been forced into the circle system at an early age.

Are you even responding to the system I propossed, or just talking about the Circle in general now?

[esper]

Beside being the usual too powerfull organisation which have too much influence and try to expanding that power while not tolerating other views of the world and surpressing various minorieties through their doctrine, the chantry also work on bringing back the attention of an evil deity. So yes they are evil - as an organisation.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

Are you trying to pin the Chantry as "evil", just because it acts EXACTLY like any other organization/nation with power? How dare they!

Most of them are evil, really.

If you actually think that every nation and organization out there is evil, then I pity you. As a matter of fact, for just believing in  good and evil I'd pity you. Those two terms, when used as absolutes, have a nasty habit of oversimplifying things.

[Xilizhra]

Well, certainly extremely few nations or powerful organizations are good, and most of them throughout history have used evil tactics fairly frequently. Of course, if an oppressive system would ever respond with anything but violence, it wouldn't have been oppressive in the first place, so it's hardly surprising. Which is why we need to crush the power of this one so that it can't do so again.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

Yes the Chantry oppresses mages but, i also think Fenris is right. it is human nature for the oppressed to become the oppressors when given the power and means to do so. If mages are free it will be another incarnation of Tevinter once they actually start holding positions of power, that may take generations but, it will happen.

[Xilizhra]

DarkAmaranth1966 wrote...

Yes the Chantry oppresses mages but, i also think Fenris is right. it is human nature for the oppressed to become the oppressors when given the power and means to do so. If mages are free it will be another incarnation of Tevinter once they actually start holding positions of power, that may take generations but, it will happen.

No it won't. That also requires an entrenched culture with a lack of regard for life in general, and it's far from guaranteed to happen.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

DarkAmaranth1966 wrote...

Yes the Chantry oppresses mages but, i also think Fenris is right. it is human nature for the oppressed to become the oppressors when given the power and means to do so. If mages are free it will be another incarnation of Tevinter once they actually start holding positions of power, that may take generations but, it will happen.

No it won't. That also requires an entrenched culture with a lack of regard for life in general, and it's far from guaranteed to happen.

Aren't you the gal proposing to kill every single Templar, Templar-supporter and a good chunk of the Chantry?... Yeah, I'd say the mages are well on their way...

[esper]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

esper wrote...

You don't ever get that serenty by ripping children away from their parents and then locking them up in a religious organisation with guardians that feels they have an religious duty to guard everyoneone against the mages (Again I know not everyone feel that way, but that a few do is enough), and you certainly don't do it by further preventing marriage and other things they would have known to be the norm.

Generally speaking apostate mages who have been apostate their whole childhood seems much more emotional stable and strong than anyone who have been forced into the circle system at an early age.

Are you even responding to the system I propossed, or just talking about the Circle in general now?

Yes, I went back to general again.

Your system is the one with having to earn freedom, including marriage right?
That is not going to work simply because you are putting too much stress on the word earned. By telling people they have to earn something that other's in their eyes potentially already have you are creating potential for more turmoil and abuse.
 
The circle system for me to be acceptable have to be some kind of bording school where children magically gifted are sent and trained untill a certain age, during that time their family have a right too come and visit them as they and the mage pleases and when they reach their maturerity age the age put under a harrowing (supervized by the first enchanter) and if they pass they are free to leave. Also harrowing needs a name change). As for policing every guard force (or whoever upholds the law in each country) needs at least one mage and one warrior with templar-like ability  to deal with magical law breaker, but the templar as a group needs to be destroyed and replaced by a warrior group with templar-like abilites simpy because the word Templar is now carry too much negative and religious association with it.

Also no restriction on the relantionship because trying to make laws about emotions have never turned out well.

However that was the comprise I would be willing to take before da2. Right now the battle for me is just as much too remove the chantry and the politics of Orlais and I am honestly not sure if I am more pro-mage than anti-chantry. It is a dilemma I will first be able to answer when I am faced by making a decision between the two. 

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

DarkAmaranth1966 wrote...

Yes the Chantry oppresses mages but, i also think Fenris is right. it is human nature for the oppressed to become the oppressors when given the power and means to do so. If mages are free it will be another incarnation of Tevinter once they actually start holding positions of power, that may take generations but, it will happen.

No it won't. That also requires an entrenched culture with a lack of regard for life in general, and it's far from guaranteed to happen.

Aren't you the gal proposing to kill every single Templar, Templar-supporter and a good chunk of the Chantry?... Yeah, I'd say the mages are well on their way...

Not without grievously misinterpreting my statements. I want the Templar Order gone, but it's up to the templars whether they'll surrender and allow it to happen peacefully or fight to the death. Templar supporters who are just annoyances rather than combatants I don't need to fight, and most of the Chantry seems to be noncombatant as well, so killing them is hopefully unnecessary.

[DPSSOC]

Plaintiff wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Canadian Independence.

Unless you can prove Canadians were an abused, disenfranchised minority group, I'm gonna say "no".

There are vast differences between granting civil rights and giving a country its independace.

Well the Americans seemed to think the treatment was worth rebelling over so you tell me if it qualifies.  You asked for change at the whim of the dominant with little to no outside pressure that qualifies.  We did our part for the Empire and asked, once, and were granted independence (of a sort).

Plaintiff wrote...

The mages have been going at their turn for 2 millenia now, with a brief 300 year stutter.  You can't argue the mages' right to a millenium of tyranny in response to the Chantry's millenium of tyranny, which was itself in response to the mages' millenium of tyranny.  Either we end with the normies having had their turn against the mages and call it even or the wheel just keeps on turning.

Again, no. Tevinter Mages are a completely unrelated group. What they do is of no consequence to the specific issue of mages in nations that are under the heel of the "White" Chantry. That's the same batcrap-crazy logic that led to the internment of American citizens of Japanese descent in World War 2.

In fact, it's much worse, because mages born and living outside of Tevinter have no possible emotional, cultural or genetic connection to it at all.

How are the Tevinter Mages different?  You're going to lump all non-mages together and say it's ok for them to be oppressed so why should I do differently for the mages?  But fine let's just look at Tevinter before the Chantry where they ruled over pretty much all of Thedas for 1,000 plus years.  Does that not count as their turn?  Is the fact that all mages were Tevinter mages at the time not matter?

[Ivucci]

DarkAmaranth1966 wrote...

Yes the Chantry oppresses mages but, i also think Fenris is right. it is human nature for the oppressed to become the oppressors when given the power and means to do so. If mages are free it will be another incarnation of Tevinter once they actually start holding positions of power, that may take generations but, it will happen.

Is this supposed to be an argument against abolishing oppression systems in general?

Sorry but based on this logic, slavery in Tevinter shouldn't be abolished because the ex-slaves will rebel and start killing their former masters in the most horrible ways possible (and impossible).

(That's not to say I don't understand Fenris' position)

[DarkAmaranth1966]

Were slavery abolished in Tevinter, I think that it would end with the Tevinter mages being as controlled and isolated as the rest are now - back to square one. None of the systems work right and the game does not offer a means to fix it. You cannot stick to the lore and cannon and get changes that will work.

[dragonflight288]

It was abolished in Tevinter. The other magisters swiftly had that Archon assassinated. Tevinter as a country and its society doesn't know how to function without slaves. They've never operated any other way.

[Ivucci]

broken post

Modifié par Ivucci, 01 mars 2012 - 06:35 .

[Ivucci]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Are you saying that you have witnessed marriages in which the couple never had a huge fight, or in which they never were jealous of eachother at some point? Because if so, I'd suspect you of lying. It is a very natural thing to feel these emotions in a relationship, at some point during its duration. They don't have to be constant, or even ruin the relationship, but they are always present at some point. These kinds of emotions are extremely dangerous for mages, and that is the crux of the problem with mages and romantic involvement.

I am done with this discussion because...

Mages also don't have to be alone their whole lives. No one is forbidding them from making friends with eachother, or in the system I'm proposing the Templalrs and even people outsdie the Circle.

... this suggestion that friendship can replace intimate relationship on the journey of individual personal growth and development of one's mind (which is what no one should be deprived of, i.e. mages in this case) is something I cannot take seriously.


Edited to say that yes, friendship is amazing, too, and sorry for off topic.

Modifié par Ivucci, 01 mars 2012 - 06:54 .

[Ivucci]

dragonflight288 wrote...

It was abolished in Tevinter. The other magisters swiftly had that Archon assassinated. Tevinter as a country and its society doesn't know how to function without slaves. They've never operated any other way.

Ok, I missed this piece of lore. I guess this makes sense however, it doesn't quite change my original point which was about the general principle. I do think slavery is bad, just like mage oppression, and the argument that oppression shouldn't be abolished because oppressed wil become the new oppressors is just... well it doesn't really make any sense to me (as an argument I mean. I do acknowledge the possibility that this might - or might not - happen).

Modifié par Ivucci, 01 mars 2012 - 08:45 .

[Plaintiff]

DPSSOC wrote...
How are the Tevinter Mages different?

Oh, I don't know. They follow a different religion and have an entirely different set of cultural and religious values?

You're going to lump all non-mages together and say it's ok for them to be oppressed so why should I do differently for the mages?

Because all the countries in Thedas, with the exception of Par Vollen (and possibly Seheron) fall under the dictate of the 'White" Chantry and obey its religious laws without question. Even Ferelden, which had good cause to buck Chantry rule after the Orlesian invasion, decided to let them stay and their Grand Cleric went immediatly back to bossing the King around, as evidenced by their veto of Alistair's decree to free the Ferelden Circle. However different they might be in any other sense, this linking factor is too great to deny.

But fine let's just look at Tevinter before the Chantry where they ruled over pretty much all of Thedas for 1,000 plus years.  Does that not count as their turn?  Is the fact that all mages were Tevinter mages at the time not matter?

Not even a little. The mages of Thedas have been brought up under a completely different political and religious system, with completely different cultural and moral values. A child of Asian or European descent who was born in AMerica and knows only of life in America is going to feel very little in the way of any sort of emotional pull towards the country of their ethnic origin.

Since the magic "gene" or whatever is completely random and not linked to any genetic or cultural factors, there is no possibility for mages to feel any sort of emotional pull towards Tevinter, especially not after a thousand years. The only way your argument makes sense is if all mages everywhere share some sort of hivemind.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 01 mars 2012 - 09:44 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

If your advocating a thousand years of oppression of innocent people "get even", then drawing distinctions between Tevinter and the rest of Thedas is completely arbitrary. Either all non mages deserve to oppressed or they don't all deserve it. A citizen who didn't do anything to mages is exactly as deserving of being oppressed as one in a completely different country. And if you believe they are, then the mages still started it.

Tevinter once ruled all of Thedas so all the White Chantry lands are the inheritors of that thousand years of Tevinter oppression.

[dragonflight288]

Why must there be 1000 years of oppression on the Chantry? Many young orphans or unwanted children are given to the Chantry to raise. Alistair being one of them. They are raised knowing nothing else.

Alistair grew to be a skeptic, but he's a good man who was raised in the Chantry. Surely there are others like him. (Lily in the mage origin, fell in love with Jowan and was willing to give up everything for him...until he revealed himself as a bloodmage.) These children aren't raised to know anything different. Why should good men and women raised within these walls be oppressed?

Granted, I'm all for reforming the entire system so we have a more fair and balanced education system. Say these orphans can spend some time among mages and learn more about them, about the Circles, and befriend some mages. And allowing mages access to see their families (the ones who weren't abandoned at least,) having more access to the outside world, once passed their harrowing (needs a name change) can go and live outside the circle, serve the community as healers or in the King's army. Have the right to have a family.

By doing this, we would remove a lot of preconceptions and prejudices against mages and non-mage chantry raised people. There would be more understanding and a more perfect system (Not to be confused with a perfect system. Far from it.)

In order to get that to happen however, almost all the leaders of the Chantry, prejudiced leaders of armies and kingdoms, and certain Libertarians would have to be removed and replaced. Not an easy task.

[Xilizhra]

In order to get that to happen however, almost all the leaders of the Chantry, prejudiced leaders of armies and kingdoms, and certain Libertarians would have to be removed and replaced. Not an easy task.

I would question that last one. I'd prefer "reassignment." The Resolutionists weren't wrong, and the point they were trying to make was a darkly good one, they just went too far and too fringe in their methodology. They're still probably among the more combat-experienced mages we have and will likely be vital to the war.

[DPSSOC]

Plaintiff wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
How are the Tevinter Mages different?

Oh, I don't know. They follow a different religion and have an entirely different set of cultural and religious values?

No they really don't.  Tevinter is an Andrastian nation, they worship the same gods in a slightly different way.  They have two distinctions, their interpretation of "magic exists to serve man..." and their attitudes towards slavery.  Big differences admittedly but not "an entirely different set of cultural and religious values"

Plaintiff wrote...

But fine let's just look at Tevinter before the Chantry where they ruled over pretty much all of Thedas for 1,000 plus years.  Does that not count as their turn?  Is the fact that all mages were Tevinter mages at the time not matter?

Not even a little. The mages of Thedas have been brought up under a completely different political and religious system, with completely different cultural and moral values.

 
Which has no effect on the fact that the mages already had their crack at tyranny when Tevinter ruled and their values were adopted by the entirety of their empire.  Hell the Imperium, at it's height, controlled a much greater area than the Chantry.  That was my point, the mages had their turn at being the dicks for the 1,000 plus years before the Chantry even existed.  The Chantry, and it's oppression towards mages, is a response to that widespread and universally adopted tyranny.  The Imperium was the Chantry before the Chantry existed and it was everywhere.  You can`t argue that because the mages of today have different values than Tevinter (and they don`t) that Tevinter's time at bat doesn`t count because at the time they did have the same values.

By your reasoning not only has the Chantry been perfectly justified in their treatment of mages, but the next group that oppresses mages after they get their turn will also be completely justified because their values and beliefs will be drastically different from those held by the current Chantry.  Round and round it goes where it stops...

[Xilizhra]

No they really don't. Tevinter is an Andrastian nation, they worship the same gods in a slightly different way. They have two distinctions, their interpretation of "magic exists to serve man..." and their attitudes towards slavery. Big differences admittedly but not "an entirely different set of cultural and religious values"

Actually, that second one isn't that different from Orlais or Antiva either.