1008 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Ryzaki wrote...

It is not genocide by the definition of the term.

The mages are not a specific in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. They aren't. Saying they are doesn't make it so. They all share a condition but that's all.  

Yes it is.  KoP and I covered this at length elsewhere.  Mages clearly self-identify themselves as a seperate cultural group (and that's enough per the UN Charter) and other people in Thedas do likewise.  This fact MAKES mages a sperate and unique 'cultural'/'ethnic' group.  I guarantee you that if KC Meredith did what she did in our world, she would be indicted by the Hague for Genocide.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  ALso Wynne clearly uses the specific word (in it's modern context) "genocide" with "mage" being the specific targeted group in DAA so both the concept of genocide and the concept of 'mage' as a seperate ethnic group clearly both exist in Thedas.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 16 juin 2011 - 08:50 .

[Ryzaki]

Ah I said I was gonna stop. 

Have at it. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 juin 2011 - 08:51 .

[ddv.rsa]

IanPolaris wrote...
I guarantee you that if KC Meredith did what she did in our world, she would be indicted by the Hague for Genocide.

-Polaris

Couldn't you say the same for every Annulment?

[IanPolaris]

Ryzaki wrote...

*shrugs*

Keep using your buzz word.

It's not genocide. I don't see it as genocide. It was *one* circle. *One*

I will becuase it's an accurate term and words have meaning.  Someone just doesn't like to admit this.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

ddv.rsa wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
I guarantee you that if KC Meredith did what she did in our world, she would be indicted by the Hague for Genocide.

-Polaris

Couldn't you say the same for every Annulment?

Yes.  That doesn't make it any better.

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

Words have little meaning when you throw them around willy nilly.  (like how terrorism is all but used as a boogeyman word) 

But as I edited. Whatever.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 juin 2011 - 08:52 .

[Playest]

Ryzaki wrote...

It is not genocide by the definition of the term. 

 

Your right it's not genocide it's the wholesale slaughter of a group of people based on whether or not they were born with a particular trait. 

It's no different then deciding to kill all people with red hair. 

Where’s a cartmen gif when i need it? 

Modifié par Playest, 16 juin 2011 - 08:55 .

[IanPolaris]

Ryzaki wrote...

Words have little meaning when you throw them around willy nilly.  (like how terrorism is all but used as a boogeyman word) 

But as I edited. Whatever.

I am perfectly happy using the word "terrorism" to describe Anders actions as well.  Like I said,words have meaning and I picked genocide specifically because it is what it is.

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

Playest wrote...
Your right it's not genocide it's the wholesale slaughter of a group of people
based on whether or not they were born with a particular trait. It's no
different then deciding to kill all people with red hair. 



Where’s a cartmen gif when i need it?

 

...wow. I never knew all the mages (or hell even a significant number!) in Thedas were in Kirkwall. Silly me. 

And magic isn't a trait. It's a condition. Mages come from non-mage families. 

I have sickle cell trait. 

I do not have sickle cell. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 juin 2011 - 08:57 .

[errant_knight]

It isn't genocide. Mages can appear in any family with a trace of mage genes in their background, although it's stronger in some families. They aren't a separate group. They're menbers of ordinary society who are expelled/imprisoned when their powers manifest. You can call it mass murder and be able to make an argument for it, but it's not genocide. Well, I suppose you *can* call it genocide, but that would be inaccurate.

[IanPolaris]

Playest wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...



It is not genocide by the definition of the term. 



 

Your right it's not genocide it's the wholesale slaughter of a group of people
based on whether or not they were born with a particular trait. It's no
different then deciding to kill all people with red hair. 



Where’s a cartmen gif when i need it? 

Which is the definition of genocide especially when people self-identify into groups based on that trait (and in Thedas Mages DO self-identify as a seperate group based on magical talent which makes then a 'culturally distinct ethnic group' and thus a valid target of genocide)

-Polaris

[Playest]

errant_knight wrote...

It isn't genocide. Mages can appear in any family with a trace of mage genes in their background, although it's stronger in some families. They aren't a separate group. They're menbers of ordinary society who are expelled/imprisoned when their powers manifest. You can call it mass murder and be able to make an argument for it, but it's not genocide. Well, I suppose you *can* call it genocide, but that would be inaccurate.

Would you consider kill all people with blonde hair genocide?

[IanPolaris]

errant_knight wrote...

It isn't genocide. Mages can appear in any family with a trace of mage genes in their background, although it's stronger in some families. They aren't a separate group. They're menbers of ordinary society who are expelled/imprisoned when their powers manifest. You can call it mass murder and be able to make an argument for it, but it's not genocide. Well, I suppose you *can* call it genocide, but that would be inaccurate.

Mormans can appear in any family regardless of the mormans in a family background, therefore killing all mormans isn't genocide?

Mages ARE a seperate group, regard themselves as a seperate group with a seperate identify.  The fact that a family may have mages and non-mages within it makes no difference.  If you act in specific ways against a group of people that self-identify according to certain ethnic, cultural, religious, and other traits, it is by definition genocide.  Must I pull up the long and tired UN definitions AGAIN?

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

Playest wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

It isn't genocide. Mages can appear in any family with a trace of mage genes in their background, although it's stronger in some families. They aren't a separate group. They're menbers of ordinary society who are expelled/imprisoned when their powers manifest. You can call it mass murder and be able to make an argument for it, but it's not genocide. Well, I suppose you *can* call it genocide, but that would be inaccurate.

Would you consider kill all people with blonde hair genocide?

More like a small subset of people who all have blond hair. 

Kirkwall circle =! all mages. 

[Playest]

IanPolaris wrote...

Which is the definition of genocide.. 

-Polaris

I actually agree with you. Guess you missed my sarcasm there, but I think trying to dictonary at each other has derailed the thread a little bit can we get back on topic please? 

[Playest]

Ryzaki wrote...

More like a small subset of people who all have blond hair. 

Kirkwall circle =! all mages. 

Okay what about all of the blone people in Atlanta?

[IanPolaris]

Ryzaki wrote...

Playest wrote...
Your right it's not genocide it's the wholesale slaughter of a group of people
based on whether or not they were born with a particular trait. It's no
different then deciding to kill all people with red hair. 



Where’s a cartmen gif when i need it?

 

...wow. I never knew all the mages (or hell even a significant number!) in Thedas were in Kirkwall. Silly me. 

And magic isn't a trait. It's a condition. Mages come from non-mage families. 

I have sickle cell trait. 

I do not have sickle cell. 

Magical ability seems to be genetic which means that many people probably DO have the magic trait (but it's recessive).  In any event it doesn't make what the Templars do anything other than genocide since mages do self-identify by magical ability (and non-mages also treat others differently because of magical ability or the lack of it).

Again, I've been through this.  The UN rules make it clear.  If Thedas were real, mages would be considered a group as defined by UN Protocol and thus what the Templars do would be considered genocide.  Just the way it is.

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

Playest wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

More like a small subset of people who all have blond hair. 

Kirkwall circle =! all mages. 

Okay what about all of the blone people in Atlanta?

Too many people. 

I doubt the Kirkwall circle has more than 1k in it. 

@Ian: How pray tell are the mages an ethnic group? What culture do they follow? WHat ways of living do all circle mages (regardless of circle) share? What is their distincitive cultural and historical traditions? 

pertaining to or characteristic of a people, especially a group (ethnic group) sharing a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like.
2.
referring to the origin, classification, characteristics, etc., of such groups.
3.
being a member of an ethnic group, especially of a group that is a minority within a larger society: ethnic Chinese in San Francisco.
4.
of, pertaining to, or characteristic of members of such a group.
5.
belonging to or deriving from the cultural, racial, religious, or linguistic traditions of a people or country: ethnic dances.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 juin 2011 - 09:04 .

[IanPolaris]

Ryzaki wrote...

More like a small subset of people who all have blond hair. 

Kirkwall circle =! all mages. 

Which is also still genocide per the UN Statutes.  Attempting to 'reduce or elminate' a specific identifiable group of people (mages in this case) in a certain location is also genocide.  There have been cases when some serial kills that targeted a certain victim type was ALSO charged with genocide in addition to the more mundane capital murder charges.

-Polaris

[Playest]

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...
[/quote]

Okay what about all of the blone people in Atlanta?

[/quote]
Too many people. 

I doubt the Kirkwall circle has more than 1k in it. 
[/quote]

So it's a numbers game then? Whats the over under for the term then? 2,000? 200,000?

I guess what I'm asking is how many wiskers make a Hitler mustache? 

[IanPolaris]

Look up the Genocide Statutes (they've been quoted elsewhere on these forums at length elsewhere) and you find that the UN doesn't care about any scientific or phenomenological "test' for ethinic group.

If you actually read the laws regarding genocide, it's very simple:  Do a group of people have a common trait?  Are these people identified by this trait by themselves and by others?

If you answer "yes" to both questions, then it's an 'ethnic' or 'cultuaral' group, and targeting that group specifically IS grounds for the charge of genocide.

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

Playest wrote...
So it's a numbers game then? Whats the over under for the term then? 2,000? 200,000?

I guess what I'm asking is how many wiskers make a Hitler mustache? 

*sighs* 

And this is why I'm done with this conversation for real this time. 

Good bye. 

@Ian: Fine whatever. It's genocide I really don't care anymore. By that definition gathering a group of kids who were goths that all had the same disease and killing them would be genocide. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 juin 2011 - 09:15 .

[Playest]

Ok back to the OP's question.

Was the game steered too much to one side or the other?

PersonallyI thought that the last act was such a mess that the choice ends up not mattering at all.

Discuss

[EmperorSahlertz]

I'd like to point out that it isn't genocide, and that Polaris, no matter how bad he wants it to be right, is wrong. It is not genocide, and it will never become genocide. It would be if it was done under the correct motive, however since the motive isn't in order with the genocide's requirement, the entire argument that it is genocide falls to pieces.

Of course this will fall on deaf ears, since genocide is such a powerful term and the pro-mages are usually desperate to cling to such words, no matter if it is incorrect.

[Ryzaki]

Ryzaki wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

They wanted siding with the Templars to be a reasonable choice, rather than having supporting the mages be a no brainer.

The problem is that they did this by having mages act randomly evil all the time, instead of having the Templars act with some semblance of rationality.

This pretty much. 

There was so many crazies on both sides I kind of wanted to nuke them all and be done with it. 

To expand on this. 

The only sane mages you know are Bethany (assuming she's alive), that orange haired dude, Merrill and Alain. 2 of them are bloodmages, one was involved in the kidnapping of Hawke's sibling/LI/Friend the other may have gotten herself nearly possessed and may have ended turning her clan against her or killing them in self defense. 

The only sane templars you know well are Thrask, Cullen (who matures and develops from completely mage fearing to reasonable), I forgot that other dude's name. 

On the other side the crazy (or powerhungry) mages you know are Grace, Decimus, Gascard, Tarohne, Idunna, Huon, that chick, serial killer dude, Orsino.

The crazy (or powerhungry) templars you know are Alrik, Meredith and...that's it.   

You know unnamed mages/templars on both the sane/insane spectrum but they're not named. 

You know more sane mages than sane templars...but you also know more insane mages than templars so it ends up kind of balancing out. 

My only issue was that both Meredith and Orsino were completely demonized and lost all humanity. Meredith became a idol scrappy and Orsino...he just went bat**** for...some reason. 

The game could've beneffited from less insane mages for stupid reasons and more rational templars. Orsino and Meredith also shouldn't have gone bonkers for no reason. Meredith should've killed Anders regardless of player choice (and trying to stop her should've automatically put Hawke on the side of the mages), Orsino should've only gone Harverster if Hawke was actually losing, Hawke *should've* suffered heavy casualties (or waves and waves of templars until he/she ran out of potions and resources the one place the dang wave mechanic would've made sense!) if siding with the mages, he/she should've had to kill alot more mages if siding with the templars. Mages should've turned to bloodmagic/abominations *regardless* of what side Hawke was on. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 juin 2011 - 09:33 .