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[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Mages themselves are all a group. What they inherit from past generations they pass on in the future after training it in the present. That's why the Tevinter Imperium made geneologies of every family that would produce a mage (source: Dagna). Isolde and Eamon weren't mages, but Isolde's family bloodline carried magic in their blood.

Leandra also mentions magic runs in the Amell line when she's speaking to Hawke, and that it was an issue because familities didn't want to marry into a line with magic (which was the problem her parents had with Malcolm, an apostate, since she was bringing more magic into their line, no less).

[TEWR]

yup, same thing applies to Leandra. She wasn't a mage, but the blood of mages still flowed in her veins.


Fenris' ancestors must've been mages too if Varania was going to become an apprentice to Danarius. Well, she would've had I let Danarius live. Now she's gotta find a new magister

[EmperorSahlertz]

Mages are no more a cultural group than the people who went to a certain boarding school is a specific cultural group.

You could argue that mages were an ethnic minority, but that would require them to share some sort of heritage.
All they really are, is a genetic abnormality. Their culture tehy adapt from the Circle they are trained in, and their ethnicity they gain from their parents.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Mages are no more a cultural group than the people who went to a certain boarding school is a specific cultural group.

You could argue that mages were an ethnic minority, but that would require them to share some sort of heritage.
All they really are, is a genetic abnormality. Their culture tehy adapt from the Circle they are trained in, and their ethnicity they gain from their parents.

They do.  Mages in Thedas self-identify with each other.  The same goes for non-mages.  Mages treat each other differently (as do non-mages) because of magical ability including social stratification.  In fact I'd say the Chantry helped solidify "mage" as an ethnic minority.

All mages (and non-mages) self-identify and have a unique identification based soley on the presence or absence of magical talent.  That makes then an ethnic minority.

-Polaris

[Annarl]

Wulfram wrote...

They wanted siding with the Templars to be a reasonable choice, rather than having supporting the mages be a no brainer.

The problem is that they did this by having mages act randomly evil all the time, instead of having the Templars act with some semblance of rationality.

Agreed!  This is the problem with the entire story line (in my opinion).

[Harid]

Playest wrote...

Persephone
wrote...

Playest wrote...

And that accomplishes what? Do you honestly believe that which side you come
down on will affect the outcome of the conflict?

 

Yes, I honestly believe that.

So you think that Bioware will maintain 2 universes one where the Templars win
and one where the mages do?





 

They won't, and if you expect them to, you are insane.

If the mages win, they don't have support of the common man.  As such, they would have to either all go away to their own country somewhere or try to recreate the Tevinter Imperium.

If the Templars win, which is likely what will happen because they have the support of the common man, mages will be subjugated even further given what Bioware has shown us from this conflict.

Bioware was too stupid not to try and create a mage that non violent and that got support from the common man much a kin to Dr. Martin Luther King.  Instead we get people like Anders who act like terrorists, and we are supposed to believe that regular people would get behind these kinds of people when it directly benefits them not to, and they are proving everything the chantry says is true.  We are supposed to believe that these mages can actually have a global revolution without someone tipping off Templars, or whatever, given that mages really have no way to communicate to other mage towers without a regular person bringing the news from somewhere.

It was a stupid plot point, and in my opinion the Qunari Rebellion of act 2 would have been a much better one to leap from.

Modifié par Harid, 16 juin 2011 - 06:46 .

[Playest]

Ryzaki wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
[/i]Mages are an ethnic group. The definition of an ethnic group is as follows:

An ethnic group is a group of people whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage

 

Huh. I guess that CM in origins who was talking about his elven heritage was doing something wrong eh?

What common heritage do the mages have? I've asked for this and I have yet to get one.  

Magic is the common heritage, the definition gets a lilttle foggier because this a a fantasy setting and there is more than one "race" which is why i used the example of hair color. Its a universal trait that anyone [human or elf] could have by acciedent of birth.

Being born with magic is the moral equivilent of being born with red hair

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

yup, same thing applies to Leandra. She wasn't a mage, but the blood of mages still flowed in her veins.


Fenris' ancestors must've been mages too if Varania was going to become an apprentice to Danarius. Well, she would've had I let Danarius live. Now she's gotta find a new magister

Indeed, I wouldn't be suprised at all if it turned out that Fenris was chosen for Denarius' special project BECAUSE he had mage blood without being a mage himself.  Indeed I wouldn't be suprised at all if the most powerful and capable templars turned out to be people that had a single (suppressed) mage gene and thus were mage blooded without being mages themselves.  We know for a fact that Meredith herself is one such.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

as well as Thrask.


edit: also, Fenris competed in a tournament. Danarius didn't choose him, though I imagine he was probably ecstatic upon finding out there was mage blood in Fenris' line (assuming there's a geneology on them and he did some digging)

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 juin 2011 - 06:54 .

[Ryzaki]

*shrugs*

So their an ethnic group that apparently only have a condition in common.

[IanPolaris]

Ryzaki wrote...

*shrugs*

So their an ethnic group that apparently only have a condition in common.

That's one more than is needed as long as their own "people" and society around them identifies them with it.

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

Mmhmm.

[Playest]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
You could argue that mages were an ethnic minority, but that would require them to share some sort of heritage.
All they really are, is a genetic abnormality.

exactly being a mage is the moral equivilent to haveing red hair. So would you then say that killing everyone in kirkwall with red hair because a Anders did something is a  moraly justifyable act?

[Playest]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
edit: also, Fenris competed in a tournament. Danarius didn't choose him, though I imagine he was probably ecstatic upon finding out there was mage blood in Fenris' line (assuming there's a geneology on them and he did some digging)

Once upon a time weren't ALL elves magic users? I remember merril saying something to that effect

[Wulfram]

Playest wrote...

Once upon a time weren't ALL elves magic users? I remember merril saying something to that effect

Dalish beliefs about their society prior to the Tevinter conquest seem more mythology than history unfortunately, so I wouldn't rely on that.

[Harid]

Mages aren't an ethnic minority.

At best they are a group of people that share the same genetic abnormality or perceived benefit. The only way you could argue that they are the same race is if you could prove that they are an evolution of humans on Thedas, and there is no way you could prove that based on the knowledge given to us.

You'd be doing the equivalent of talking out of your ass.

[TEWR]

Merrill did say that, though we can only believe or not believe it to be true as since this was the first time we've heard that story, it's only a story (currently. more evidence may come in the future.)


It may be true, and I find it quite likely. The elves were proficient in magic, and if the elves of Arlathan did teach the Tevinters blood magic, then I would assume a whole civilization with magic would know many things about the arcane.

Like the Eluvian.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Mages are no more a cultural group than the people who went to a certain boarding school is a specific cultural group.

You could argue that mages were an ethnic minority, but that would require them to share some sort of heritage.
All they really are, is a genetic abnormality. Their culture tehy adapt from the Circle they are trained in, and their ethnicity they gain from their parents.

They do.  Mages in Thedas self-identify with each other.  The same goes for non-mages.  Mages treat each other differently (as do non-mages) because of magical ability including social stratification.  In fact I'd say the Chantry helped solidify "mage" as an ethnic minority.

All mages (and non-mages) self-identify and have a unique identification based soley on the presence or absence of magical talent.  That makes then an ethnic minority.

-Polaris

Mages identifying themselves with other amges does not make them a cultural group. Prisoners identifying themselves with other prisoners does not make them cultural groups either. At least not the way you are implying.
Wether being or not being, does not equate being a part (or not) of an ethnic minority. A man who has one-hand and identifies himself with other men with one hand, does not belong to the "ethnic minority of men with one hand". He is simply a man with a disadvantage, which he can recognize others have. It is sort of a "brotherhood". Not a cultural subgroup.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Playest wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
You could argue that mages were an ethnic minority, but that would require them to share some sort of heritage.
All they really are, is a genetic abnormality.

exactly being a mage is the moral equivilent to haveing red hair. So would you then say that killing everyone in kirkwall with red hair because a Anders did something is a  moraly justifyable act?

Uhm.... What?

Do ginger people have a natural chance of blowing up in my face? No.
Is this equation then worth null and void? Yes.

However, I will do my best to stop the gingers from taking over the world. Damn gingers...

[TEWR]

except prisoners are prisoners because of choices they made. They weren't born prisoners


Men with one hand are men with one hand because of an event that may or may not have been a choice, but they weren't born that way (usually. Some rare cases of people being born with one hand have happened). They could get either a prosthetic limb or pay for surgery to have a new hand or arm.


A mage is born a mage and forever will be a mage. You can't stop being a mage without also ceasing to be a person with emotions.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

except prisoners are prisoners because of choices they made. They weren't born prisoners


Men with one hand are men with one hand because of an event that may or may not have been a choice, but they weren't born that way (usually. Some rare cases of people being born with one hand have happened). They could get either a prosthetic limb or pay for surgery to have a new hand or arm.


A mage is born a mage and forever will be a mage. You can't stop being a mage without also ceasing to be a person with emotions.

Irrelevant to the point of wether or not they are an ethnic or cultural minority. They are neither.

And to say that a man born with only one hand could pay for surgery to become a two-handed man, is like saying a mage could just let himself become tranquil. Then he wouldn't be a amge anymore.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 16 juin 2011 - 07:15 .

[Playest]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Uhm.... What?

Do ginger people have a natural chance of blowing up in my face? No.
Is this equation then worth null and void? Yes.

Thats not a moral difference it's a practical one

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

except prisoners are prisoners because of choices they made. They weren't born prisoners


Men with one hand are men with one hand because of an event that may or may not have been a choice, but they weren't born that way (usually. Some rare cases of people being born with one hand have happened). They could get either a prosthetic limb or pay for surgery to have a new hand or arm.


A mage is born a mage and forever will be a mage. You can't stop being a mage without also ceasing to be a person with emotions.

Irrelevant to the point of wether or not they are an ethnic or cultural minority. They are neither.

And to say that a man born with only one hand could pay for surgery to become a two-handed man, is like saying a mage could just let himself become tranquil. Then he wouldn't be a amge anymore.

It's entirely relevant. You're arguing that people who made a choice to be who they are is equivalent to a person being born the way they are with no say in what happens to them.


And I didn't know getting a new arm and/or hand would make a person an emotionless husk. Huh..... the more you know....


and remember kids, knowing is half the battle.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 juin 2011 - 07:18 .

[Playest]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Irrelevant to the point of wether or not they are an ethnic or cultural minority. They are neither.

It's hard to apply the idea of ethnicity in a fantasy setting because the idea was born in the real world where there is only one "race" I think if you think of humans and elves is all being "people" then the comparasion is more easy to make. 

This is why i keep using the hair color example.

Modifié par Playest, 16 juin 2011 - 07:19 .