280 réponses à ce sujet

[accessd]

I have to agree with OP. I love this game but playing melees are just plain boring compared to mages due to this mechanic. Oh well...who plays this game without a mage or two in the party anyway.

[Mordaedil]

FYI, I think the OP confuses Dragon Age: Origins with Dragon Age: Journeys.



DAJ had Stamina potions and a similar problem to what the OP has, DAO had nothing of the sort.



Unless Sten is somehow only one-shotting his opponents.

[PennyAnte]

I somewhat agree with the OP, but you also have to expect to invest meaningfully in willpower if you want to use abilities a lot. I've gotten into the habit of upping a key stat to the point needed to qualify for talents and certain gear, then doing some willpower/con ... you need will for mental resistance anyway on warriors and rogues.

Modifié par PennyAnte, 20 novembre 2009 - 12:08 .

[eastoreispos]

surrealitycheck wrote...

Autoattack is optimum if you are using a good build, abilities are secondary.

Abilities don't crit when behind, or carry elemental damage, or benefit properly from attack speed. They have very limited usage.

They have very limited usage

Exactly. 

Listen, autoattack was cool in the 80s, but this is 2009.  I don't want to play a class who spends 90% of the time autoattacking. 

@ Koyasha:

Please tell me that you know you can activate the vast majority of passive abilities BEFORE getting into combat.  The only exception is on area transition and Berserk which depowers anytime you interact with the environment or an npc. 

@ Beertastic:

How does a game that resorts to 90% autoattacks (and i'm not pulling this figure out of my ass, me and my friend actually kept a detailed log over the course of 20 fights over 1 minute in length on how many autoattacks vs activated abilities that the main character used, 90% was a fair average of autoattack vs activated ability) create strategic fights?  If anything it reduces any tactics to the very bare bones basics: 

I'll save my stamina and use this one ability to counter this one move, and then I won't use my stamina again in case I have to counter it again thus resorting to autoattacks. 

Strategy implies that there are multiple decisions to be made, this is not 1985 and this isn't tic-tac-toe.  The current stamina regeneration rate does not allow any true 'strategy' because it slaves you to two or three uses of an ability. 

And btw, no you can't activate your sustainables if you have no stamina.  Losing all your stamina will also disable all your sustainables.  Therefore if you are using any sustainables you have to constantly keep tabs on the EXACT amount of stamina you have, because using any abilities may push you to 0 and turn off your sustainables. 

[Nodrak]

surrealitycheck wrote...

Nodrak, that would be true if the sustained abilities weren't most beneficial when mostly all toggled on and autoattack left to run

The melee system is utterly fubar.

so using abilities is never a loss unless they specifically say so.

Actually, it is. Consider the following: I am a warrior with +15 elemental damage on my weapon, haste and bloodthirst up, and about +40 damage from other elemental weapon buffs. I hit for about 100 noncrit, not factoring in the elemental damage.

I use critical strike, a slower attack than an autoattack, and I crit for 150.

OR

I use an autoattack, which has a 25% chance of critting for that much base damage, and I get guaranteed 55 extra elemental damage, faster. The only reason to use those abilties is possibly for shatter combos.

Weapon spells are hard capped in the code at +10 damage (before damage modifiers like difficulty and mob stats).  I forget if Fire/Ice are exclusive or not, but Kinetic is +ArmorPen, which may work on abilities, I never bothered looking, and is hard coded at 12.5 armorpen.  Combining all 3 nets a max of 32.5 extra, but is more likely 22.5 or even just 10 extra, depending on stacking/relevence.

You can also switch off sustained abilities instantly and without causing a delay if you use an active ability.  You can essentially turn off bloodthirst and use an ability and then turn it on, saving the X% fatigue while using an sbility, and getting right back to fast autoattacks, the best of both worlds no?

That is what they mean by tactical.

Modifié par Nodrak, 20 novembre 2009 - 12:24 .

[eastoreispos]

@ accessd:



You're ABSOLUTELY right. Playing my warrior I always let him run by himself and controlled Morrigan. But doesn't that seem wrong to anybody? That you let the computer run YOUR character and you take over another everytime you fight?



I quickly realized that there was no point in creating a warrior or rogue, because the only fun is when you're controlling the mage.



@Pennyante



I did the exact same thing, took enough strength and dex for abilities and put the rest into will power. Yet again this only reinforces the fact that the stamina system is broken and forces you to over-compensate because of it.

[menasure]

BlackVader wrote...

Well, auto-attack from a warrior or rogue is WAY more effective that auto-attack from a mage. A mage is almost useless without mana, a backstabbing rogue is still devestating even without stamina.

yup and it looks like mages run out of mana nearly every fight and i find it hard to find enough lyrium potions for them where i have not seen it as a significant problem yet when melees run out of of stamina because they still have their passive skills.

Modifié par menasure, 20 novembre 2009 - 12:24 .

[surrealitycheck]

That is totally wrong. I have +27 damage from fiery weapons at level 12, on one of my characters.

[Raxxman]

Nodrak wrote...

You can also switch off sustained abilities instantly and without causing a delay if you use an active ability.  You can essentially turn off bloodthirst and use an ability and then turn it on, saving the X% fatigue while using an sbility, and getting right back to fast autoattacks, the best of both worlds no?

That is what they mean by tactical.

That's not tactical, that's just explotation of a ropey system. Like using arrow of slaying outside the AI's agro range to pick off targets one at a time.

[Torias]

I'd suggest raising your will power, equipping gear that gives bonuses to stamina and stamina regeneration.



By level 18, my two handed weapon warrior had a huge amount of stamina, and could blow off a sequence of:

Perfect Striking

(Activate Precise Strike Mode)

Sunder Arms

Weapon Sweep (name? the sweep AOE attack that knocks everyone down)

Sunder Armor

Mighty Blow

Critical Strike

Sunder Arms (the 10 second cooldown time has reset by this point)

(activate 3 more modes)



that's enough to make a huge dent in particular enemy forces and very quickly shift the balance of forces in the battle...

[Aspar_Hruk]

I love the game as a whole, marvelous creation in terms of storyline, atmosphere, characters etc. etc, even if i am only at the beginning, BUT...i have to agree (i am still at the very beginning, mind) with the op. Yesterday i started feeling something is very very wrong, if i, playing a 2h warrior, noticed i play more and more with Morrigan in battles than with MY char, since there was not much i could do with him, than autoattack after the first couple of seconds. This is VERY VERY VERY wrong and speaks of bad design desicions.

I really hope they patch it somehow, improve it, or change it someway, because like this it seems horribly wrong to play more with an NPC than with my char, just because i don't have what to do with MY char.

Until then i guess i will have to train a warrior into willpower more than into other so much more warriors looking stats like str and con.

[Darth_Shizz]

eastoreispos wrote...

@ Beertastic:

How does a game that resorts to 90% autoattacks (and i'm not pulling this figure out of my ass, me and my friend actually kept a detailed log over the course of 20 fights over 1 minute in length on how many autoattacks vs activated abilities that the main character used, 90% was a fair average of autoattack vs activated ability) create strategic fights?  If anything it reduces any tactics to the very bare bones basics: 

I'll save my stamina and use this one ability to counter this one move, and then I won't use my stamina again in case I have to counter it again thus resorting to autoattacks. 

Strategy implies that there are multiple decisions to be made, this is not 1985 and this isn't tic-tac-toe.  The current stamina regeneration rate does not allow any true 'strategy' because it slaves you to two or three uses of an ability. 

Because having enough stamina to spam your critical strikes and flurries constitutes as "tactical" in this day and age? That right there, is mage logic   Also, I really must point out that whilst keeping a "detailed log" to try and prove some sort of point is laughable in itself, extrapolating a bollocks figure from it, then claiming that it is in fact, not bollocks, is ABSOLUTE bollocks...test that over a substantial amount of fights, THEN toss crap around -.-

As for stamina, I rarely seem to have problems. At least, I don't consider the inability to spam talents a problem. A few points on how to be successful with stamina:

- NEVER activate a talent mid-swing unless you have to.

- NEVER underestimate your sustainables.

- NEVER use a slow start-up talent when the enemy has the ability to interrupt it.

- ALWAYS save disables for when they're needed.

- ALWAYS try to squeeze a talent in at the end of the attacking animation (right after the attack hits, but before the pullback).

- ALWAYS keep deep mushrooms handy; they have 0 cooldown and a very quick animation, especially if you stack 2+ - though these are more of a crutch than anything.

- MAYBE bring along someone with rejuvenate and wear +stamina/regeneration gear.

Another important point is...yes, you've guessed it...WILLPOWER. Pretty sure BW didn't add that for their collective health

Modifié par Darth_Shizz, 20 novembre 2009 - 12:49 .

[Bluemax151]

My PC is a tank so the "limitations" of stamina do not bother me. I could see how if your were a melee damage dealer they might though. Auto attacking is boring and even if each ability was not that strong when activated it would be more "fun" constantly having to use them in each and every combat as it keeps you more engrossed in each battle.

[Gui Yu]

Darth_Shizz wrote...


- NEVER activate a talent mid-swing unless you have to.

- NEVER underestimate your sustainables.

- NEVER use a slow start-up talent when the enemy has the ability to interrupt it.

- ALWAYS save disables for when they're needed.

- ALWAYS try to squeeze a talent in at the end of the attacking animation (right after the attack hits, but before the pullback).

- ALWAYS keep deep mushrooms handy; they have 0 cooldown and a very quick animation, especially if you stack 2+ - though these are more of a crutch than anything.

- MAYBE bring along someone with rejuvenate and wear +stamina/regeneration gear.

Another important point is...yes, you've guessed it...WILLPOWER. Pretty sure BW didn't add that for their collective health

For a Warrior build the above is pure win.  I switch to another party member only when it looks like they are not using their tactics for health regen.  I switch to the mage only to revive a fallen party member.

I used mushrooms only when I really need that little burst of stamina.  Later in the game you get a really nice piece of armor that regens stamina quickly, plus a +25 total pool.  I've played several RPG's and the way they handle stamina in this one I think is done quite well.  I've learned to play the game.

[Halgrimmr]

BlackVader wrote...

Well, auto-attack from a warrior or rogue is WAY more effective that auto-attack from a mage. A mage is almost useless without mana, a backstabbing rogue is still devestating even without stamina.

Edit: Typo.

I think you mean to say "a mage without mana is as weak/useless as a fighter/rogue".  Unless the mob is immune to my staff blasts (grrrr), my mage puts out a good bit of damage with just the staff. 

[Itkovian]

Gui Yu wrote...

Darth_Shizz wrote...


- NEVER activate a talent mid-swing unless you have to.

- NEVER underestimate your sustainables.

- NEVER use a slow start-up talent when the enemy has the ability to interrupt it.

- ALWAYS save disables for when they're needed.

- ALWAYS try to squeeze a talent in at the end of the attacking animation (right after the attack hits, but before the pullback).

- ALWAYS keep deep mushrooms handy; they have 0 cooldown and a very quick animation, especially if you stack 2+ - though these are more of a crutch than anything.

- MAYBE bring along someone with rejuvenate and wear +stamina/regeneration gear.

Another important point is...yes, you've guessed it...WILLPOWER. Pretty sure BW didn't add that for their collective health

For a Warrior build the above is pure win.  I switch to another party member only when it looks like they are not using their tactics for health regen.  I switch to the mage only to revive a fallen party member.

I used mushrooms only when I really need that little burst of stamina.  Later in the game you get a really nice piece of armor that regens stamina quickly, plus a +25 total pool.  I've played several RPG's and the way they handle stamina in this one I think is done quite well.  I've learned to play the game.

Well said. By the endgame both my (tank) warrior PC and Alistair (specced for 2-handed weapons) would rarely run out of stamina. With enough regen going, and a high enough stamina pool, it simply isn't a problem anymore.

Personally, I found the stamina system to be pretty good, and the sustained abilities mechanic was a very good innovation. If forces you to think through your actions, and learn to use your abilities tactically in order to maximize their usefulness.

It is a good mechanic, and give more depth to the Warriors and Rogues than what is usually see in most single player RPGs.

That said, OP seems to be complaining now that this system makes them too weak compared to mages. That's besides the original point, however, and is more an issue of mages being more powerful, which in fact was what the designers were going for (something along the line of "Mages are more powerful, deal").

Itkovian

[Skellimancer]

Like someone said the moves are utter ****e anyway, for 2handed at least.



Just auto attack with every sustain you can get..

[MartinJHolm]

I don't see how it's worse than spellcasters needing mana!



For the record I have problems with both mana and stamina myself but that's only because I've not specced my chars properly so their pools and regeneration is poor, I consider that my own fault.

[Zeluna]

I fully support the OP in this thread, Stamina is a joke in this game the fight is over and I'm lucky to ever use more then 2 of my special talents from any of the members in my party. The only class that has decent pool is the casters because they have a prerequisite of Wisdom which gives you more mana then the equivalent stamina would for the same amount of points spent. Any class that uses a stamina bar is CONSTANTLY starving for stamina throughout the ENTIRE fight!

[MartinJHolm]

Well I guess that means if you are min/maxing you will suck.

Put some points in wisdom willpower.

Modifié par MartinJHolm, 21 novembre 2009 - 02:27 .

[Skellimancer]

MartinJHolm wrote...

Well I guess that means if you are min/maxing you will suck.

Put some points in wisdom.

Do NOT put points in Willpower.

As a 2hander user it really isn't worth it.

[Ghandorian]

yea seems some people are forgetting to build a balanced character. My 2h warrior uses 6-8 activated attacks in a full combat situation. The whole pot reliant thing is weak gaming at its worst.

[surrealitycheck]

I'm just amused that people think any of the moves other than the aoes are worth using. The debuffs are trivial, they lower your dps... I'm just baffled that people think they NEED the stamina. And yes, if you've put points in willpower your character is suboptimal if they are a warrior or rogue.

[Pocketgb]

surrealitycheck wrote...

I'm just amused that people think any of the moves other than the aoes are worth using. The debuffs are trivial, they lower your dps... I'm just baffled that people think they NEED the stamina. And yes, if you've put points in willpower your character is suboptimal if they are a warrior or rogue.

This is another pretty big issue, isn't it? 2h relies on a lot of stats to be any form of effective. I just switched my current over to 2h from DW and the results are incredibly lacking. I think I might go all Str or something, but then I really, really don't want to miss those hits...They're slow enough as is.

[Nodrak]

Raxxman wrote...

Nodrak wrote...

You can also switch off sustained abilities instantly and without causing a delay if you use an active ability.  You can essentially turn off bloodthirst and use an ability and then turn it on, saving the X% fatigue while using an sbility, and getting right back to fast autoattacks, the best of both worlds no?

That is what they mean by tactical.

That's not tactical, that's just explotation of a ropey system. Like using arrow of slaying outside the AI's agro range to pick off targets one at a time.

There have been many posts by BioWare saying they want people to turn on and off their sustained abilities mid fight.  They wanted to explicitly get away from the 'cast 9 buffs before combat' style, and make people choose their abilities on the spot mid battle.

Activating and deactivating a sustained abilitiy does nothing other then use its cooldown (or does it interupt the melee swing too?), if you want to have all your sustained abilities on while hammering away with all your active abilities, well that is your prerogative, but it is hardly 'tactical' and more 'strategic' (as in the choice is made before the battle, like when you are choosing talents).