280 réponses à ce sujet

[WanderingLoki]

Well, I have to say I read alot of the posts in this thread and people seem to be complaining about the fact that they actually need something other than their main damage stats (STR/DEX or CUN/DEX if your Rogue) to actually do damage. What a novel concept!

I personally think the Stamina system is fine. My Sten is using the DLC Warden Armor with his quest sword and he pretty much 2 or 3 shots enemy mages. On top of that, he never seems to run out of Stamina ever, and before you say "HE MUST BE AUTO ATTACKING HURR HURR HURR" I have his tactics set up so he always uses abilities as frequently as possible.

My PC is a rogue, and quite honestly, she doesn't need any form of skills. With Momentum I pretty much do a 70+ damage backstab every second. I do notice that in this game Rogues are not really made for burst, but they do have an exceptionally easy time stunlocking an enemy into the ground (Dirty Fighting, Riposte, Crow/Deathroot poisons, Paralysis runes). I have no idea if the Paralysis Runes or Poisons are on a PPM (proc per minute, a term for all you WoW fans) system but they sure don't seem like it. I've locked down a Revenant from 100 - 0 with all of those buffs running.

On top of that, I see alot of "OMG MAGES DONT HAVE THIS PROBLEM" in this thread. Have you even seen how pitiful a mage's autoattack is? Its stupidly weak. Holy crap. What this means is, as someone previously stated, mages without mana are totally useless. My Rogue's ONE backstab is equal to a regular mages FOUR autoattacks minimum. Mages need lyrium potions for spellcasting because THEY CAN DO NOTHING ELSE. And honestly what would you implement in a fantasy world? 

Also, alot of the higher tier weapon skills REDUCE STAMINA costs for abilities. Worst case scenario, you actually have to boost Willpower a bit (WOW WHAT AN IDEA!) to not run out of Stamina. Those of you who are complaining that you can't use more than 2 or 3 abilities a fight probably are trying to use moves with full sustained modes running. The game's system doesn't allow that. You need to make a choice.

Honestly, Stamina is not a huge deal. Spamming abilities is not what DA: O is about. Its about knowing when and how to use those big burst moves and knowing WHO to use them on (frequently enemy casters). Those of you who want to spam moves should go back to an MMORPG or something.

Also LOL AT DEV RESPONSE.

P.S. I am seeing alot of "IF YOU DONT AGREE WITH ME YOU ARE N00B" in this thread. Maybe someone should post some numbers? Math typically is alot better than anecdotal evidence.

[F-C]

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

While this is certainly an exageration, I think it addresses very well the question of why some us wish for some re-balancing of the classes, despite this being a single player-game.

It's not about being 'stronger', it's about having as much fun with a radically different party setup.

i dont think the game should be the exact same difficulty no matter what classes you choose personally.

if it detracts from your fun because things present more of a challenge, i think thats kind of sad.

learning new tactics and ways to beat encounters without having the easiest group set-up is part of the fun in making these radically different party set-ups to me.


if it was the exact same it would be so boring, why even bother with a second play through.

Modifié par F-C, 20 novembre 2009 - 06:07 .

[Skellimancer]

F-C wrote...


then you have the issue of mages being useless without mana, while melee/archers are still at full dps even completly out of stamina.

I am indeed at full DPS without stamina.

Is that a good thing? No.

It just means my "special attacks" add nothing to DPS than simply auto attacking.

One day people will figure this out as a bad thing.

But as long as Mages are fun and powerful and every team has one then all is ok, ammirite?

[F-C]

Skellimancer wrote...

F-C wrote...

then you have the issue of mages being useless without mana, while melee/archers are still at full dps even completly out of stamina.

I am indeed at full DPS without stamina.

Is that a good thing? No.

It just means my "special attacks" add nothing to DPS than simply auto attacking.

One day people will figure this out as a bad thing.

But as long as Mages are fun and powerful and every team has one then all is ok, ammirite?

you hate auto attack and think you should be spamming attacks like this is wow part 2.

got it.

[Skellimancer]

WanderingLoki wrote...

I personally think the Stamina system is fine. My Sten is using the DLC Warden Armor with his quest sword and he pretty much 2 or 3 shots enemy mages. On top of that, he never seems to run out of Stamina ever, and before you say "HE MUST BE AUTO ATTACKING HURR HURR HURR" I have his tactics set up so he always uses abilities as frequently as possible.

Arrow of  Slaying can 1 shot mages from a distance.

Just a comparison.

[Skellimancer]

F-C wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

F-C wrote...

then you have the issue of mages being useless without mana, while melee/archers are still at full dps even completly out of stamina.

I am indeed at full DPS without stamina.

Is that a good thing? No.

It just means my "special attacks" add nothing to DPS than simply auto attacking.

One day people will figure this out as a bad thing.

But as long as Mages are fun and powerful and every team has one then all is ok, ammirite?

you hate auto attack and think you should be spamming attacks like this is wow part 2.

got it.

No you have not "got it" and never will.

[F-C]

Skellimancer wrote...

No you have not "got it" and never will.

your angry little bitterness is rather epic, i must say.

you admit you are at full dps even out of stamina.

you say your problem is in your special abilities dont add to your dps, and you think they should be more effective and you should be able to use them constantly.

what exactly am i not getting here?



you want this to play similar to wow instead of how its designed.

DAO is designed for melee/archers primary source of damage to come from auto attack and the special abilities are to be used more tactically followed by persistent abilities being turned on to augment auto attack further.

you dont like it.


i think i got it.

Modifié par F-C, 20 novembre 2009 - 06:18 .

[Bromosapian]

F-C wrote...

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

While this is certainly an exageration, I think it addresses very well the question of why some us wish for some re-balancing of the classes, despite this being a single player-game.

It's not about being 'stronger', it's about having as much fun with a radically different party setup.

i dont think the game should be the exact same difficulty no matter what classes you choose personally.

if it detracts from your fun because things present more of a challenge, i think thats kind of sad.

learning new tactics and ways to beat encounters without having the easiest group set-up is part of the fun in making these radically different party set-ups to me.


if it was the exact same it would be so boring, why even bother with a second play through.

This.

[Skellimancer]

F-C wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

No you have not "got it" and never will.

your andry little bitterness is rather epic, i must say.

you admit you are at full dps even out of stamina.

you say your problem is in your special abilities dont add to your dps, and you think they should be more effective and you should be able to use them constantly.

what exactly am i not getting here?




i think i got it.

You really are this dumb? Really?

[daem3an]

Just a thought (directed at no one in particular): why not learn how to play this game by the rules the creators have set, or change it yourself, instead of demanding the game be changed to fit how you're playing it?

It would be nice (for some) to be able to use abilities willy-nilly without worrying about stamina at all, but that isn't how the game works. In some other games, when you get a new ability you can just use it as much as you want. A big part of this game is about figuring out different builds, and learning how to use each of them efficiently in combat. It's a challenge and that's by design. Take that away and it's a different game.

I couldn't imagine trying to play a sport with this attitude. The net's too small. Why can't I bounce the ball more before shooting? There should be more home bases. The goalie is overpowered...

I would have a much bigger problem if all character builds were essentially equal. Some are way more challenging than others, some are just fun and powerful, creating more options and ways to mix your party up. A character with high Willpower/Mana can spam a lot of low-cost abilities, and vice-versa. Either way the less properly balanced a certain character is with the rest of the party, the greater the challenge, and some people like that too. Fun is purely subjective, but these are the rules of the game.

Modifié par daem3an, 20 novembre 2009 - 06:21 .

[F-C]

Skellimancer wrote...

You really are this dumb? Really?

im just reading what you post like this :

Skellimancer wrote...

I am indeed at full DPS without stamina.

Is that a good thing? No.

It just means my "special attacks" add nothing to DPS than simply auto attacking.

One day people will figure this out as a bad thing.

so either you need to clarify your intentions and what you mean better, or you are just being a bitter troll.

[Skellimancer]

F-C wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

You really are this dumb? Really?

im just reading what you post like this :

Skellimancer wrote...

I am indeed at full DPS without stamina.

Is that a good thing? No.

It just means my "special attacks" add nothing to DPS than simply auto attacking.

One day people will figure this out as a bad thing.

so either you need to clarify your intentions and what you mean better, or you are just being a bitter troll.

The special attacks add nothing to dps! n-o-t-h-i-n-g.

Is it that hard to understand?

[Loc'n'lol]

F-C wrote...
i dont think the game should be the exact same difficulty no matter what classes you choose personally.

if it detracts from your fun because things present more of a challenge, i think thats kind of sad.

I'm currently playing normal, 1 mage, no heal spell. It's suitably challenging and not impossible, I don't feel the need to ramp it up. I'm not complaining about that.

Essentially what I'm saying is, it' d be nice if warriors and rogues required a little more micro (all of them, as you said it yourself : you are controlling an entire party, not just one character). That is to say if their abilities were a little more meaningful. Increasing damage is actually not a great thing for an ability, special effects (stun, knocdown, aoe, dot, whatever) are where it matters.

It seems the 'best' tactic setup for stamina-based characters is to only have an emergency tactic for using health poultices. Don't ever let the AI use your activated abilities, it will ruin your stamina doing useless stuff (like the default tactic that makes Alistair shield bash the first mob he sees, yeah great, what a waste).

And after some thought I don't think stamina pots would make things better, it would actually effectively turn things into an ability spam fest. Having to manage your gauge is fine. Not being able to replenish it at all is annoying. Maybe if the base stamina regen was significantly higher, then you'd still have to use abilities carefully (not all of them at once) while having more freedom to use them out of critical situations.

More pot-chugging isn't going to make things better. I understand Lyrium pots are necessary, because mages on auto-attack really suck, but Lyrium pots should have some drawbacks too (you know... MOAR WILLPOWER should also apply to mages )

[F-C]

Skellimancer wrote...

The special attacks add nothing to dps! n-o-t-h-i-n-g.

Is it that hard to understand?

and isnt that what i posted is one of your issues here before you started calling me dumb and trolling?

F-C wrote...

your angry little bitterness is rather epic, i must say.

you admit you are at full dps even out of stamina.

you say your problem is in your special abilities dont add to your dps, and you think they should be more effective and you should be able to use them constantly.

what exactly am i not getting here?



you want this to play similar to wow instead of how its designed.

DAO is designed for melee/archers primary source of damage to come from auto attack and the special abilities are to be used more tactically followed by persistent abilities being turned on to augment auto attack further.

you dont like it.


i think i got it.

you really arnt making much sense.

you do look like you are nerd-raging though.

[Osprey39]

0mar wrote...

El Stormo wrote...

eastoreispos wrote...

I suspected I would have to spell it out so here it is

No, you don't have to spell it out, we get it.

What I'm saying is, that while indeed, stamina is depleted by using warrior abilities, that stamina is regenerated after every fight, making it effectively one giant cooldown monitor. If you want to gripe, then gripe about mana and health also being restored after battle along with stamina, because that is what makes stamina function just like mana, not the other way 'round.

Mages never run out of mana.  It's so easy to craft 99 lyrium potions, it's almost cheating.  I've never had a single mana problem with my mages.

 

Uh, I just finished the game last night on hard difficulty and I bought every lyrium potion off of every vendor I found plus I crafted as many as I could too and I maybe had 80 in total THROUGHOUT THE GAME and never more than 10 on me at once.  Most of those were minor potions which gave me enough mana to cast maybe 2 more spells.   Mana was an issue for me throughout the whole game.

[Skellimancer]

F-C wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

The special attacks add nothing to dps! n-o-t-h-i-n-g.

Is it that hard to understand?

and isnt that what i posted is one of your issues here before you started calling me dumb and trolling?

F-C wrote...

your angry little bitterness is rather epic, i must say.

you admit you are at full dps even out of stamina.

you say your problem is in your special abilities dont add to your dps, and you think they should be more effective and you should be able to use them constantly.

what exactly am i not getting here?



you want this to play similar to wow instead of how its designed.

DAO is designed for melee/archers primary source of damage to come from auto attack and the special abilities are to be used more tactically followed by persistent abilities being turned on to augment auto attack further.

you dont like it.


i think i got it.

you really arnt making much sense.

you do look like you are nerd-raging though.

I think i am done talking to you, Troll.

10/10 btw would rage again.

[surrealitycheck]

F-C wrote...
you want this to play similar to wow instead of how its designed.

DAO is designed for melee/archers primary source of damage to come from auto attack and the special abilities are to be used more tactically followed by persistent abilities being turned on to augment auto attack further.

So the move punisher is not meant to do more damage than autoattack?

What about flurry?

Or deadly strike?

I'm sorry, but I do not think you have correctly divined their intentions at all. The reason special moves are bad is NOTHING to do with design, as George Zoller says:

Simply time. By the time we got around to implement the elemental

benefits, there was no more time to deal with the balancing

implications and QA of adding them to special attacks. I'd imagine

that's something they'll look at that again in the future, it's not

terribly hard to do.

Modifié par surrealitycheck, 20 novembre 2009 - 06:32 .

[kroosaydur]

Georg Zoeller wrote...

Willpower is great.

you must be playing a different version of the game than i am. my warrior has around 40 willpower and i still have no stam left after about 3 moves and can only auto attack 90% of the fight. and yes i have deathblow too and it litterally makes 0 difference.

[Tattercloak]

Osprey39 wrote...
Uh, I just finished the game last night on hard difficulty and I bought every lyrium potion off of every vendor I found plus I crafted as many as I could too and I maybe had 80 in total THROUGHOUT THE GAME and never more than 10 on me at once.  Most of those were minor potions which gave me enough mana to cast maybe 2 more spells.   Mana was an issue for me throughout the whole game.

Errr...you can buy an infinite amount of Lyrium dust at the tower and an infinite number of flasks at any tavern.  To be fair, you can also buy an infinite amount of Elfroot from the Dalish so healing potions should never be an issue either.

[Bane]

Osprey39 wrote...
Uh, I just finished the game last night on hard difficulty and I bought every lyrium potion off of every vendor I found plus I crafted as many as I could too and I maybe had 80 in total THROUGHOUT THE GAME and never more than 10 on me at once.  Most of those were minor potions which gave me enough mana to cast maybe 2 more spells.   Mana was an issue for me throughout the whole game.

I've made hundreds of lyrium potions.  I've got 99 lesser and 99 normal in my inventory right now with enough supplies in the party chest to make hundreds more if needed.  Crafting supplies are infinite if you know where to find them.  Mana is only limited by how much gold you want to spend.

[WanderingLoki]

The special attacks add nothing to dps! n-o-t-h-i-n-g.

Is it that hard to understand?

Wow what a novel idea that maybe specials are used for more than damage output? OMG I NEVER THOT OF THAT HURR HURR HURR. Srsly now. In case you didn't read the skill descriptions, alot of the Warrior specials are abilities that DO NORMAL DAMAGE AND <insert some kind of debuff here>. The damage boost comes from the debuffs, giving the warrior more UTILITY. Heck, the ability of the 2H to have a chance to stun on hit is already amazing. Stack that with paralyzing runes and poisons and you have a lockdown machine right there.

Have you ever tried fighting a Revenant with a 2H warrior with Poisons and Paralyzing runes and a Rogue with the same setup? Holy crap man, you can lock him down from 100 - 0. And on top of that, I do not think Critical Strike is a weak move in regard to your DPS. Its pretty good.

Besides, if what you want is to see big numbers, then you should play a Mage. Like someone said, either play by the rules that Bioware set or don't play. There is already enough clamouring around these forums about how Mages are OP and Rogues and Warriors are boring. Just play whatever suits your fancy. This game is about having fun, not about having big numbers.

[Haexpane]

I use CAs on my 2H tank... but with good runes and starfang I just use them because I'm bored, she does fine on auto attack and the resetting of the animations is often not worth it.

Champion and Templar makes for some very strong buffs tho, it's just weird not really needing a tank for anything but dragons, and if you have AW you don't need one at all

[TileToad]

daem3an wrote...

Just a thought (directed at no one in particular): why not learn how to play this game by the rules the creators have set, or change it yourself, instead of demanding the game be changed to fit how you're playing it?

It would be nice (for some) to be able to use abilities willy-nilly without worrying about stamina at all, but that isn't how the game works. In some other games, when you get a new ability you can just use it as much as you want. A big part of this game is about figuring out different builds, and learning how to use each of them efficiently in combat. It's a challenge and that's by design. Take that away and it's a different game.

I couldn't imagine trying to play a sport with this attitude. The net's too small. Why can't I bounce the ball more before shooting? There should be more home bases. The goalie is overpowered...

I would have a much bigger problem if all character builds were essentially equal. Some are way more challenging than others, some are just fun and powerful, creating more options and ways to mix your party up. A character with high Willpower/Mana can spam a lot of low-cost abilities, and vice-versa. Either way the less properly balanced a certain character is with the rest of the party, the greater the challenge, and some people like that too. Fun is purely subjective, but these are the rules of the game.

Perhaps because RPG's are more than just games a la Tetris. Instead of limiting the players possibilities with rigid rules these type of games should be at the forefront of flexibility. Immersion is one of the key elements of RPG's, after all, and anything that deters from that is a potential nagging point for players. I know it can be unpleasant if people keep nagging and complaining, about apparent silly things, but it is a way to see improvements in future products. Or would you rather things never progressed in life?

[Addolorisi]

I'm not sure I really understand the complain that mages need readily available potions. Historically, mana has been used as a method of balancing* mages: they're generally your most powerful ally - until they run out of mana. I for one don't see a problem with that particular design because you can either straight nuke until you're dry then staff blast until you regen, or you can save your mana for CCs or healing.



But in Dragon Age you can pretty much just do both, hit a potion - that you have piles of anyhow - and get back a large chunk of mana due to your naturally high magic stat. (Which brings up something else I don't quite understand. For some reason it's natural to tell a warrior or rogue to stock up on Willpower to be effective, but mages have no similar need to spend points on Dexterity or Strength.)



Basically mages are sitting way in the back doing exactly many of you think a melee character should not be able to do, but to higher effect.



*Yes, balance in a single player game. Balance isn't some new concept that just started with MMO's, and it certainly doesn't have to mean extreme homogenization like most of you seem to think it does.

[daem3an]

TileToad wrote...

daem3an wrote...
Just a thought (directed at no one in particular): why not learn how to play this game by the rules the creators have set, or change it yourself, instead of demanding the game be changed to fit how you're playing it?

It would be nice (for some) to be able to use abilities willy-nilly without worrying about stamina at all, but that isn't how the game works. In some other games, when you get a new ability you can just use it as much as you want. A big part of this game is about figuring out different builds, and learning how to use each of them efficiently in combat. It's a challenge and that's by design. Take that away and it's a different game.

I couldn't imagine trying to play a sport with this attitude. The net's too small. Why can't I bounce the ball more before shooting? There should be more home bases. The goalie is overpowered...

I would have a much bigger problem if all character builds were essentially equal. Some are way more challenging than others, some are just fun and powerful, creating more options and ways to mix your party up. A character with high Willpower/Mana can spam a lot of low-cost abilities, and vice-versa. Either way the less properly balanced a certain character is with the rest of the party, the greater the challenge, and some people like that too. Fun is purely subjective, but these are the rules of the game.

Perhaps because RPG's are more than just games a la Tetris. Instead of limiting the players possibilities with rigid rules these type of games should be at the forefront of flexibility. Immersion is one of the key elements of RPG's, after all, and anything that deters from that is a potential nagging point for players. I know it can be unpleasant if people keep nagging and complaining, about apparent silly things, but it is a way to see improvements in future products. Or would you rather things never progressed in life?

Not at all. I actually think DAO is a huge positive step forward and offers a ton of flexibility compared to similar games, but that's just how I see it, others will disagree. As I said, people should feel free to look for and work on community mods that can personalize the game to how they like to play it. There are things I've already modded on mine, and I'll likely mod more. But the game as released was meant to be the way it is. Apart from a few bugs, in the eyes of the creators it isn't broken. It's working as intended.

Considering the several hundred thousand and growing number of people that paid to play this game, it's pretty short-sighted (to say it politely) to expect the game to conform to what a few people want, especially considering those few people posting here can't even agree on what that is.

Modifié par daem3an, 20 novembre 2009 - 06:57 .