280 réponses à ce sujet

[Vardlure]

Jayce F wrote...

Warriors use Strength, Dexterity and Willpower as their main stats with Magic and Constitution being secondary.

Mages use Magic, Willpower and Cunning as their main stats with Constitution and Dexterity as secondary.

Rogues use Dexterity, Cunning and Willpower as their main stats with Magic and Strength as secondary.

They're all adequately balanced, including Stamina. It's just that some of the special abilities for certain builds need tweaking.

Whaaaaaaaaat?  Warriors use willpower?  If anything I'd put con as a main stat over willpower
you'll put more points into strength as a rogue (for armor reqs) than willpower
mages use cunning?

k

[Taritu]

Stamina isn't a problem. Endless mana is.

[F-C]

Taritu wrote...
Stamina isn't a problem. Endless mana is.

this has been rehashed over and over, i mean really.

a melee can be at full dps at 0 stamina. they use up their stamina and then turn on persistents and are still at full dps.

a mage runs out of mana and he is useless, thus the need for mana potions.

different combat systems, different mechanics, its fine, learn to play.



if you want to argue a mage should run out of mana and then do melee equivilent dps with just staff attacks, i guess you could argue that if you wanted, but it would basically reduce mages to archers with a wand.

i also dont see them spending the time to completly remodel mages at this point with the game released and people playing the game, but dont let that stop you.

Modifié par F-C, 21 novembre 2009 - 04:16 .

[aberdash]

Your argument might hold more weight if mages didn't have an infinite supply of mana.

Modifié par aberdash, 21 novembre 2009 - 04:19 .

[F-C]

[jerms510]

Again, maybe its different on the 360 version but my first playthrough was with my human warrior with a 2hander, specced zerker/champ, wearing full massive armor (wore the blood dragon suit until i got Wade's Imp Dragonbone) and have had 0 problems with stamina, could always use my abilities when needed. Even using final blow towards the beginning of a fight. deathblow would give me back ~20% stam from that kill and wynne would (im guessing) rejuv me. Had leliana's regen song up too. Also my damage wasn't crappy, i got my 250dmg hit achievement on said character.

[JessicaGlenn]

Mages can still attack normally even without mana. Or they could use Blood Magic too, mana is for the weak!

[Niten Ryu]

Mage can't do damage without mana?



Better check this video then. Final boss killed mostly with just staff. And mage does it naked and without potions. And solo. On nightmare difficulty.





I did my first run on hard difficulty. Dwarven commoner rogue. I was seriously out of stanima untill about level 12. After that point just about every character were so powerful that fights didn't last long (Wynne as healer only).



On my current run as a mage, it's complitely different story. I play on nightmare difficulty but game feels much much easier then my rogue run. Few spells and you clear entire rooms.

[F-C]

Niten Ryu wrote...

Mage can't do damage without mana?

Better check this video then. Final boss killed mostly with just staff. And mage does it naked and without potions. And solo. On nightmare difficulty.


I did my first run on hard difficulty. Dwarven commoner rogue. I was seriously out of stanima untill about level 12. After that point just about every character were so powerful that fights didn't last long (Wynne as healer only).

On my current run as a mage, it's complitely different story. I play on nightmare difficulty but game feels much much easier then my rogue run. Few spells and you clear entire rooms.

a rogue or warrior can do the same thing as that video with a bow. thats not really impressive in the least.

[Vardlure]

if they have about 9000 health potions sure...



i suppose you think mages need buffs F-C?

[EatinMcRib]

Georg Zoeller wrote...

Thank you, you just summed up my day!

Periodiko wrote...

GrrARRRar THIS EXCEL SPREADSHEET I MADE IS MAKING ME SO ANGRRRY

Perhaps this is more profound than one might think. This after all, isn't an MMO. There's no PvP, you arent competing against anyone, and there's no real benefit of making the most optimised build ever. Min-maxing every little thing would just end up infuriating the hell out of you. Sure, there are indeed things that bothered me, but I just set it to easy and then complete the game.

Modifié par EatinMcRib, 21 novembre 2009 - 06:46 .

[PatT2]

I totally wonder if folks who are unhappy with the stamina are trying to run every character in massive armor? Only my tank wears massive. And maybe my off-tank (Sten). That's it.



Use your mage for more than dps. Have you tried some of the buffs that a mage can give your team? There's this glyph... Try helping the team instead of having 4 quarterbacks. I wonder if there isn't a problem more with people trying to run four "stars" in a team instead of a team. It's the way of society, but it doesn't work in team sports. Esp. not if the star gets a pulled hamstring.



I found the same prob. at first. But now I realize that my mage is more important if they spend their mana helping buff team-members and debuffing enemies. If you have 4 diff. team-member with 4 different agendas, you're going to get killed.



This kind of reminds me of a tabletop game I have...where each player is playing against the board itself. If we all play against each other, we all lose. If we team up and strategize against the board, we win. I think that's what's happening with this game. Instead of each team-member looking for the most glorious move, it should only matter that the objective is met,no matter who in the team meets it. If they don't play together, they likely won't succeed.



I suppose that would have a lot of folks not used to playing as part of a team a little angry and frustrated. So, look at the dynammics again. If you have to have a character chain-spamming abilities, chances are, you're not using your team.



/wynn (I sound kinda like her don't I?) Look a bit like her too, all grandmotherly with gray hair. Really.

[F-C]

Vardlure wrote...

if they have about 9000 health potions sure...

i suppose you think mages need buffs F-C?

[Roxlimn]

Kahryl:



You can solo the game on NIghtmare with ANY class. This means that if you wanted to, you can make your entire party tag along doing nothing regardless of what class you're playing.

[Aesira]

The top issue with mages being OP is Blood Magic, whiereas warriors/rogues cannot use their health to fuel their special attacks. And tbh, this is what Reaver specialization should have been about, I just see this as general design flaw from Bio.

[Kahryl]

Roxlimn wrote...

Kahryl:

You can solo the game on NIghtmare with ANY class. This means that if you wanted to, you can make your entire party tag along doing nothing regardless of what class you're playing.

Correct, there are two elements ensuring that the game poses no challenge whatsoever on any "difficulty" setting:

1. Mages
2. Potions

You have to nerf/eliminate/fix both before DA:O becomes a game instead of a movie that you pause occasionally to fiddle with your keyboard.

[Silensfurtim]

i never had issues with DAO's stamina system. im glad BioWare didn't make this a complete potion-chugging game like Diablo or MMO's.

[Silensfurtim]

my human rogue dual dagger (normal mode) never had a problem with stamina.

[WillieStyle]

Roxlimn wrote...

Kahryl:

You can solo the game on NIghtmare with ANY class. This means that if you wanted to, you can make your entire party tag along doing nothing regardless of what class you're playing.

Please solo the game with a warrior and then upload him to the site.
Only reason you can solo with a rogue is that you can use stealth to avoid fights. 
Soloing with a mage is an entirely different animal.

[Ultrazennn]

surrealitycheck wrote...

Actually, using the combat abilities reduces your dps if you have good gear and a good build. So you wouldn't even want to use them, even if you had the stamina

This is actually a bigger problem.  My question would be, why are you even bothering to try and use the abilities in the first place, as they lower your DPS?

This problem is 2 fold.

1.  Resource usage in general is way out of whack given the number of enemies you face in most of the game.

2.  Actually *using* any  of those abilities will lower your DPS, not raise it.

The combat system for melee in general is a mish mosh of really poorly implemented things that look good in the character description, but don't play out in the engine.  In almost every single case, using one of these abilities *cost* you DPS.  Activating flurry on a rogue for example, you will cut your DPS by at least 33% vs just standing behind a mob auto attacking.

Given how quickly you go through resources in this game, and how many mobs you face at a time in a typical encounter, activating *any* skill, ought to outright kill everything around you in a 5 foot radius.  There is such a disconnect between the way fights actually play out, especially in the 2nd half of the game, vs the game mechanics for abilities.  It really feels like every test they ran was with a full party against 1 group of maybe 5 mobs, and in that sense, the game *is* pretty balanced.....well except for the lowering of DPS on ability use.

/shrug.  It's easy to fix through itemization, and I've made a mod for myself with a series of weapons and armor that compensate for the issues.  It is a single player game after all, with a free toolset.  I love the freaking editor lol.

[Roxlimn]

Kahryl:



It's a single player game with tweakable settings. Not using potions or the broken spell combos is ALSO something you can do. And frankly, I don't see why you don't. If it makes the game more fun, then use "nerfed" characters! Makes sense to me.



For my part, I think that crafting potions makes Herbalism a surpassingly potent skill line, but it's a narrow balancing act. You need to combine that plus the skill in getting a good money flow in order to really break the game in terms of health poultice amount, and at that point, you're willfully trying to do it - its not like the game forces you.



WillieStyle:



The game is 60 hours per playthrough, and significantly longer when soloing. I'm not burning 60 hours of my time doing something just to "win" a forum debate. Soloing with a Warrior is doable if you have the right resistances, armor, Survival, Traps and bombs. Even at level 9, a Warrior can already equip the Blood Dragon Armor. With Shield Wall and bombs, it makes most non-boss encounters trivially easy, even without abusing Bomb-Salve combos.

[WillieStyle]

Roxlimn wrote...

WillieStyle:

The game is 60 hours per playthrough, and significantly longer when soloing. I'm not burning 60 hours of my time doing something just to "win" a forum debate. Soloing with a Warrior is doable if you have the right resistances, armor, Survival, Traps and bombs. Even at level 9, a Warrior can already equip the Blood Dragon Armor. With Shield Wall and bombs, it makes most non-boss encounters trivially easy, even without abusing Bomb-Salve combos.

If by trivialy easy you mean "nerve-wracking and tedious as hell" sure.
Then you get grabbed by a dragon.

Modifié par WillieStyle, 21 novembre 2009 - 03:01 .

[Saphyro]

Aesira wrote...

The top issue with mages being OP is Blood Magic, whiereas warriors/rogues cannot use their health to fuel their special attacks. And tbh, this is what Reaver specialization should have been about, I just see this as general design flaw from Bio.

I see it as logic. Again, "others should should have abilities similar to class/specialization X" is some insane and wierd pseudo-balancing thing. This game was made for party cooperation [and although it is soloable, it shines when party comes into play]. How can you not love a situation where party mage casts cone of cold [freezing that badass boss], you send in your assasin, "force" critic [ability/ build / items] and see the mob shatter to pieces (despite being full health before being frozen). It's simply great. And much more logical then constant QQing about "this class needs fix because it uses stamina" and "that class is so overpower because it wipes the floor with enemies". I also have serious difficulties understanding those who say "I won all my fights using 2 (3) spell combination and it was easy". Yes. Well, it had to be bloody boring too. Anyone trying different strategies just for the sheer fun of it and to see how wel classes complement each other?

There is no flaw in making a certain class excel at some things while being poor at others. It was, is and should be a rule when it comes to single player crpgs. Thanks Bio for playing the right cards.

[surrealitycheck]

Saph, the classes the complement each other best are, er, mages.



Shatter combos are pretty much the only inter-class combos. The other combos are most easily done with more than one mage. For example, entropic death can be done 3 times in about 3 seconds with 3 mages in your party, more than one storm of the century at a time, etc.

[WillieStyle]

Saphyro wrote...

There is no flaw in making a certain class excel at some things while being poor at others. It was, is and should be a rule when it comes to single player crpgs.

This is true. However, this doesn't describe Dragon Age.
In Dragon Age, mages excel at everthing (except opening locks) and are poor at nothing (except opening locks).
Great story draws you in, but poor game design and balance really hurts replay value.