91 réponses à ce sujet

[SennenScale]

It seems to be implied that the Reapers are just reproducing. Whoever made sentient AIs that must kill millions to create more of themselves is probably pretty darn evil, though.

[Bogsnot1]

Zaeed's LM can be a decent example of good/evil decisions. The mission is to liberate the refinary from the Blue Suns. Zaeed turns it into a vengeance quest. You can save the workers and liberate the refinary, or kill the workers, let Zaeed have his revenge, and liberate the refinary.
Wilfully letting innocents die for the sake of petty revenge is a pretty evil and despicable act.

Good and Evil are relative, as you cant have one without the other.

[CaptainZaysh]

That said, Vido's an interstellar warlord and a war criminal. Killing him may well save more lives in the long run than were lost in the refinery.

Love your sig.

Modifié par CaptainZaysh, 16 juin 2011 - 12:36 .

[Bogsnot1]

CaptainZaysh wrote...
That said, Vido's an interstellar warlord and a war criminal. Killing him may well save more lives in the long run than were lost in the refinery.

Love your sig.

Therein lies the failure in that particular mission. We should have had the option for EDI & Joker to blast his ship out of the sky. Refinery liberated, workers saved, Vido dead. Everyones happy. I reckon grumpy old Zaeed would have danced a jig on the burning wreckage of the ship even if he didnt get to make the killing shot himself.

And thanks.

Modifié par Bogsnot1, 16 juin 2011 - 01:15 .

[MisterJB]

Kai Leng is pretty evil.

[Sebby]

MisterJB wrote...

Kai Leng is pretty evil.

False, he's a good human patriot.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Destroying Trillions of lives just so you and a few hundred of your people can make new bodies for yourselves is evil.

[CaptainZaysh]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Destroying Trillions of lives just so you and a few hundred of your people can make new bodies for yourselves is evil.

And how many lives have ended prematurely just so you could shovel the remains of their mutilated carcasses into your gaping maw?

[ISpeakTheTruth]

How many of those lives were sentient? None.

[CaptainZaysh]

But what if to survive you needed to devour lesser sentient races. Would choosing not to starve to death really be evil?

[Sebby]

I believe the Reapers are trying to preserve or save the Galaxy in their own way. Sovereign and Harbinger allude to this in their speeches and the whole dark energy thing with Haestrom's star might be connected somehow.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

But what if to survive you needed to devour lesser sentient races. Would choosing not to starve to death really be evil?

Let me correct your question. If I and a few hundred of my fellow humans could only survive by making every other sentient being in the galaxy extinct just to keep us alive for a while so we can do it all over again forever than yes doing that is evil.

Let me explain. If you and a few hundred of your kind decide that its ok to destroy every civilisation that will ever be made just so you're bellys will be full than that makes you evil and yes that makes you a monster. If you kill a hundred people just to save yourself than you're a monster.

[CaptainZaysh]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Let me explain. If you and a few hundred of your kind decide that its ok to destroy every civilisation that will ever be made just so you're bellys will be full than that makes you evil and yes that makes you a monster. If you kill a hundred people just to save yourself than you're a monster.

So if we suddenly discover that food is sentient, only the evil would continue to eat?

[Sarcastic Tasha]

Maybe when a person is turned into Reaper goo their conciousness somehow remains in tact and you become part of the Reaper. Kind of like the Borg assimilating people. I'm sure Sov/Harb said something about Reapers being like a whole civilization but I can't remember exactly. So in a sense they aren't killing people, just making them immortal.

[CaptainZaysh]

I think Tasha's right - I think that's the "realm of existence beyond our understanding" Sovereign spoke of. Reapers seem to be unified in purpose, though, none of the dissent in the ranks you'd expect if consciousnesses retained their individuality. Is it possible to retain your consciousness and lose your identity somehow? Or do you become subsumed somehow into a group consciousness - you're all the individuals in the Reaper, but also none of them? Maybe once you become a God you can never go back.

[SandTrout]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

How many of those lives were sentient? None.

And how many of the civilizations that had been Reaped had achieved the Reapers' level of existence? None.

The Reapers, as consciousnesses, are as far beyond ME sapient species as we are beyond cattle.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

SandTrout wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

How many of those lives were sentient? None.

And how many of the civilizations that had been Reaped had achieved the Reapers' level of existence? None.

The Reapers, as consciousnesses, are as far beyond ME sapient species as we are beyond cattle.

And you know this how? Sure their technology is more advanced than us but that doesn't mean that their existence is in some way greater than ours. The fact that we are going to be fighting a war with them and in all likelyhood defeat them says that our existence is equal to theirs.

And to answer the other person: If cattle and other animals became sentient and said please stop killing us than we'd be pretty evil to keep eating them. Now if your argument is what if every animal becomes sentient (Which is silly sentience is a rarity) than there's always plant life that can be eaten along with vitamin suppliments.

[CaptainZaysh]

Uh...you kind of missed the point of the question, there, Truth. It's more a philosophical inquiry than a nutritional one. If the only thing that could sustain humans was the consumption of sentient meat and plants, would we be evil for not choosing to let ourselves and our loved ones starve to death?

[ISpeakTheTruth]

That's the thing though Captain is that we don't know if the only way the Reapers can exist is to consume only sentient life. They could just as easily harvest a planet that is filled with cattle for their purposes unless they need sentient being for some sort of transfered intelegence but the reasons for only havesting sentient life isn't explained yet.

As for the philosopical part the numbers is what makes the Reapers horrible at least from where I see it. There are only a few hundred Reapers and inorder for them to live they kill possibly hundreds of trillions of sentient beings. That doesn't equal out morally at least not to me.

Look at it this way if you're going to die and the only way that you can prevent your death is to kill 100 people is that morally ok to kill a hundred people just to save yourself? No. To me that's evil. If you're killing thousands of times the number of people just to keep yourself and your small group alive than to me that is evil. Even if you had to kill one sentient person to keep yourself alive that to me would be morally questionable but the sheer scale of sentient beings they have to kill to keep themselves going isn't ok to me.

[Dane Seagal]

We don't know how AI think or 'feel'. It is hard to judge the Reapers' morality if they are truly sentient AI beings. Although the games do hint towards Reaper feelings of hatred, feelings of superiority and even anger. But do they feel empathy, even for their own 'species'? Are they aware of suffering? Are they programmed to reap from the genocide of organics (perhaps some really messed up organic individual made them that way) or did they come to this idea on their own? Etc. etc. Hopefully the third game will shed more light on their motives and history.

Modifié par Dane Seagal, 17 juin 2011 - 12:45 .

[General User]

SandTrout wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

How many of those lives were sentient? None.

And how many of the civilizations that had been Reaped had achieved the Reapers' level of existence? None.

The Reapers, as consciousnesses, are as far beyond ME sapient species as we are beyond cattle.

How do you mean?  Since the Protheans sabotaged the Citadel, the Reapers haven't exactly clothed themselves in glory.

Technologically, the Reapers are only marginally more advanced than we are.  They outclass the rest of the galaxy by a human generation, maybe two. 

Modifié par General User, 17 juin 2011 - 01:16 .

[diskoh]

The Reapers seem too juvenile and petulant to be truly evil to me.

"You like can't even comprehend us dude. We're way too awesome. Your little brain can't even fathom us."

*cut to Soveriegn getting killed*

Modifié par diskoh, 17 juin 2011 - 01:43 .