58 réponses à ce sujet

[Massadonious1]

I liked snarky Hawke, but the ME system is fine as it is.

[javierabegazo]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

Eh, I think the icons are too....arcady. I hope they stay in DA2 and out of ME

It sure beats getting ninja romanced with Jacob if you're just picking nothing but the upper-right choice just because "it's usually the nice thing." The only thing I'm going to blame user error on is for situations like "I want you Thane" to not mean they want to bump uglies with him.

Ninjamances have more to do with misleading prompts rather than a lack of icons I believe.

[Sesshomaru47]

javierabegazo wrote...

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

Eh, I think the icons are too....arcady. I hope they stay in DA2 and out of ME

It sure beats getting ninja romanced with Jacob if you're just picking nothing but the upper-right choice just because "it's usually the nice thing." The only thing I'm going to blame user error on is for situations like "I want you Thane" to not mean they want to bump uglies with him.

Ninjamances have more to do with misleading prompts rather than a lack of icons I believe.

Is this like Anders? You're nice to him then he tells you Karl was his first....<3<3 I was just being nice!

[Lunatic LK47]

javierabegazo wrote...

Ninjamances have more to do with misleading prompts rather than a lack of icons I believe.

On that front, I agree with you on that. On the other hand, not every single player can read in between the lines that sharply. Just an example for when I was younger. It took me a few hours to realize what "the trip to Santa's south pole" meant on that one VG Catz comic in 2005 (i.e. Master Chief gave Samus Aran a roofie.). I agree that the icons may look arcadey at times, but at least it's a safety measure saying "Do not pick this option if you don't want to do this action."

[greed89]

javierabegazo wrote...

greed89 wrote...

But thats already there in the current system, you just "play pretend" a whole lot more

But that pretend game is just WHY I like to play Role-Playing-Games.

No one plays RPG to  Role play, they play it to mange crappy inventory systems and micromange all their squads buffers <_<

Any way what i mean is ins tead of jus tpretending  your shepard has a certain dispostion the DA2 system actualy implments it

[SkittlesKat96]

 Well the dialog system wasn't as bad as I thought it was when I actually played DA 2 I suppose.

I also liked the companion system a lot how you could say your goals and opinions.

[KainrycKarr]

Don't want the icons.

But I do want personality tracking. And I wouldn't mind a little more smart-ass. Meer does it really well.

[Medhia Nox]

What I hated about the icon system is that it wasn't "Your intent." it was "What outcome do you want?"

I hope it doesn't even make it to DA 3

[javierabegazo]

Medhia Nox wrote...

What I hated about the icon system is that it wasn't "Your intent." it was "What outcome do you want?"

I hope it doesn't even make it to DA 3

Yes! This accurately sums up why I hated the system

[FlyingWalrus]

I didn't like the icons in DA2 conversations. It felt like the game already did the decision making for me by labling which ones were good, which were bad, which would start a fight, etc...

It took the fun out of finding out the consequences of my words out of the talking, you know?

[JedTed]

I don't think they need the icons in Mass Effect but i do wish the Neutral option was more than just a 3rd dialog choice if you don't like the P/R lines. Just because humanity is on the verge of extinction doesn't mean Shepard has to be serious all the time.

[InvaderErl]

Its funny, at first I liked the DA2 icons but as my time with the game went on I was jarred by how much I was just hitting options without really reading them.

No, I like the dialogue wheel we have.

[Il Divo]

InvaderErl wrote...

Its funny, at first I liked the DA2 icons but as my time with the game went on I was jarred by how much I was just hitting options without really reading them.

No, I like the dialogue wheel we have.

This. The DA2 wheel wasn't terrible, but the icons did feel unnecessary.

[Malanek]

Gatt9 wrote...

I'm not paying for any game that is so "Streamlined" that it uses Icons just so people don't have to read 5 words. That's just seriously insulting, and screams to me that the Developer isn't interested in making an RPG, they're interested in getting some other market segment to buy the game.

There's reasons why DA2 didn't sell, the Wheel of "Idontwannahaftaread" is pretty high up in the list of people's issues with DA2, and the icons exacerbated things.

Wow. You are completely missing the point of this topic and the differences bewteen the respective dialogue wheels. I don't like either for the record.

In both cases a large amount of text (sometimes up to or even more than 20 words) needs to be cut down to about 4. And the player needs to know what each option will translate to as accurately as possible. This is really hard to do.

In ME you have the Paragon and Renegade moralities. The player has not only the short blurb but also the morality involved to help them work out what is going to be said for each option. 

Now DA2 on the other hand did not have moralities, so the designers needed to have something else to help clue the player to what is going to be said. They added I guess "tones". ie Diplomatic, Charming, Sarcastic, Firm, Aggresive, Romantic and a few more I don't recall off the top of my head. They had to convey to the player which was which and used an icon to do so.

I don't like either method but it sadly appears to be becoming industry standard. Even the Witcher has gone in for it. I dislike not knowing what my character is going to say. Picking the "Very Funny" line and having Geralt say "F**k off" is extremely annoying. Out of all the methods using paraphrases, I think DA2 is the least bad. Although I am talking about the system, the actual paraphrases were terrible.

Having said that, I repeat from my post above. ME3 should not change. To change to the DA system, does not just mean putting an icon in the middle of the dialogue wheel. It means removing the mechanics of morality from the game. Although ultimately I dislike measure a characters morality with a numerical score, it is too deeply entrenched in the trilogy to be changing it before the final game.

[AlanC9]

javierabegazo wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

What I hated about the icon system is that it wasn't "Your intent." it was "What outcome do you want?"

I hope it doesn't even make it to DA 3

Yes! This accurately sums up why I hated the system

So you're both saying it's an implementation failure in DA2, rather than a bad concept?

[Bogsnot1]

greed89 wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

greed89 wrote...
But thats already there in the current system, you just "play pretend" a whole lot more

But that pretend game is just WHY I like to play Role-Playing-Games.

No one plays RPG to  Role play, they play it to mange crappy inventory systems and micromange all their squads buffers <_<
Any way what i mean is ins tead of jus tpretending  your shepard has a certain dispostion the DA2 system actualy implments it

No thanks.
If you cant be bothered reading and utilising a small section of your brain, go off and pay GoW.

[Aimi]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

No thanks.
If you cant be bothered reading and utilising a small section of your brain, go off and pay GoW.

To be fair, sometimes the ME1 and ME2 dialog option blurbs didn't effectively communicate what Shep would do/say.  

...to be less fair, that's not a reason to stick little magic symbols in the dialog wheel, that's a reason to improve the writing for the dialog blurbs. 

[Admoniter]

NO! For one thing I don't like the look and I don't like the effect of the icons.

As for the second bit... I don't want automatic dialogue; infact I want as little as possible. I can understand having some but if anything the less of it the better thus rendering the personality system pointless. Really can anyone say that they want automatic dialogue, does anybody want the game to take control of Shep for any amount of time? I know I sure as hell don't, as it kind of defeats the point of role playing.

[Dark Necronus2]

Basically having the icons meant that every dialogue boiled down to "Good/bad/silly". It actually made the conversations more shallow, because even if you mixed it up, the game would still give you your dominant personality so it wouldn't matter. I don't want this in DA3, let alone ME3.

[Luckywallace]

I felt the personality tracking was great but I would rather not have the icons. Just aesthetically they didn't look too appealing and seemed sometimes an excuse to make the paraphrased line extremely vague.

[Bnol]

So I see that people both have a problem with the icons, but yet have a problem that the 4-5 word summary doesn't accurately reflect what Shep is actually going to say. Would a color system (more than just blue/red) be better? Because, there is a limit to what the summaries can convey without some sort of tonal signal (like colors or icons).

I personally find that ME is too black and white, as you really only have Renegade and Paragon, because you really just get punished for choosing neutral, it terms of future choice down the road. Guess my biggest complaint is actually having any sort of point system involved with dialogue and instead having the dialogue work/not work/be available/not be available based on the flow of the conversation, information you have gathered and your previous interactions with the character. Obviously ME3 won't have a big overhaul, but I don't think the ME system is the best way to handle it.

[mineralica]

I'd like to see two changes in dialogue wheel:
1. any indication of romance-starting line. Colour, icon, [flirt] - whatever. It's a shame to reload just because you've wanted to say "I honestly think you're good person, Miranda" and Shepard decided to say "why can't you say you you're beautiful and have a perfect body?"
2. lack of paragon/renegade lines when they aren't available - no more "greyed" lines, just entire absense of them. So when you fail persuasion check, you don't think "aha. I should reload and try to use Inferno Armour/Mask/put points in class development", you just move further with your real decision - like it should be with squadmates confrontations which were planned to become another Virmire with a slim chance player will be able to escape this when it ended with people either asking how to persuade both squaddies or simply saveediting

[Blooddrunk1004]

Seriously?!
You people want more streamliming in Mass Effect then it already is?
Did none of you people ever played KOTOR or Witcher 2?  One wrong line could even get you killed in the game, if you didnt read carefully. DA2 icons made me sick especialy when you romanced someone when that stupid heart icon appeared. Mass Effect wheel is fine dont change something that is not broken.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Malanek999 wrote...

Having said that, I repeat from my
post above. ME3 should not change. To change to the DA system, does not
just mean putting an icon in the middle of the dialogue wheel. It means
removing the mechanics of morality from the game. Although ultimately
I dislike measure a characters morality with a numerical score, it is
too deeply entrenched in the trilogy to be changing it before the final
game.

Ok, I see your point. I also wouldn't like it if they completely copied the DA:][ system, but can't you see how including elements of it could be helpful?

As it stands, the bottom right choice is "renegade" but that could mean "impatient" "violent" "skeptical" "anti-alien" "pragmatic" or "criminal". Infamously, in ME1, right after Nihlus leaves the ship, you have the dialog blurb "I don't trust him", which seemed perfectly reasonable for my pro-alien but highly skeptical shepard, but turned out to actually mean "I don't trust him, because he's a tuarian." If there was a little icon of two aliens ignoring eachother when I highlighted that option, I wouldn't have been tricked into that out of character moment.

Another issue is when you're given a different setup than the usual paragon/neutral/renegade/investigate. Honestly, I still have no idea what it means when I have three options on the right, and one on the upper left. Adding icons, on top of the paragon / renegade system, would greatly help with this.

[oui_je_danse]

MinotaurWarrior wrote...

As it stands, the bottom right choice is "renegade" but that could mean "impatient" "violent" "skeptical" "anti-alien" "pragmatic" or "criminal". Infamously, in ME1, right after Nihlus leaves the ship, you have the dialog blurb "I don't trust him", which seemed perfectly reasonable for my pro-alien but highly skeptical shepard, but turned out to actually mean "I don't trust him, because he's a tuarian." If there was a little icon of two aliens ignoring eachother when I highlighted that option, I wouldn't have been tricked into that out of character moment.

Well said!

When I first played ME/ME2 I found myself just using the Paragon choice each time. It wasn't until later playthroughs that I started exploring the different dialogue trees and realizing there were choices that would have been more in character for my Shepard.

Playing DA2 was amazing because I felt empowered to make a variaty of dialogue choice. My Hawke was still "Good". However, she also get really aggressive towards certain groups and reacted with jokes to certain specific situations. I got to play her in character! It would be nice to play Mass Effect with the ability to know what Renegade meant in that moment.

I'm not actively advocating a change, but I do think it would be awesome.